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Old 12-27-2016, 12:54 PM   #1
Snoopy
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Default Baccarat - Edge Sorting cost Phil Ivey almost $10 million winnings

http://www.tmz.com/2016/12/27/phil-i...carat-lawsuit/

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Poker legend Phil Ivey was just ordered to return roughly $10 MILLION in baccarat winnings he pulled from an Atlantic City casino in 2012 ... after a judge ruled the way he played broke the law.

Ivey's alleged strategy is actually quite genius -- it's called "edge-sorting" and it's kind of like card counting in blackjack ... in the sense that it gives the player an advantage over the house.

Here's how it works ... the backs of baccarat cards have patterns on them that are SUPPOSED to be perfectly symmetrical, but they're not. The Borgata casino claims Ivey brought a female guest to the table who was a master at identifying the value of a card based on the pattern and she would tip him off so he could adjust his betting accordingly.

The hotel claims Ivey won more than $9.6 million in 4 visits to the hotel between April and October of 2012 using this technique.

The Borgata took him to court claiming Ivey broke the rules and they wanted their money back.

A judge has now weighed in and claimed Ivey didn't violate game rules -- but DID violate a New Jersey gambling law that's supposed to block players from using strategies like "edge-sorting" to swing the odds in their favor.
Ivey's lawyer told the AP, "What this ruling says is a player is prohibited from combining his skill and intellect and visual acuity to beat the casino at its own game."

Ivey will appeal the ruling.
I would have said "Lady Luck and Chicken Dinner."
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Old 12-27-2016, 01:08 PM   #2
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I read that story. Brilliant on his/her part to find the edge and use it. As usual, greed caused them to get caught.
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Old 12-27-2016, 01:12 PM   #3
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If you want to make money from gambling, own the casino.

As long as it's not in Atlantic City
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Old 12-27-2016, 01:13 PM   #4
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I'd say the casino should have to let him keep it for allowing a PROFESSIONAL GAMBLER play at one of their tables.
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Old 12-27-2016, 01:19 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by johnnyb View Post
I'd say the casino should have to let him keep it for allowing a PROFESSIONAL GAMBLER play at one of their tables.
Ivey is a professional poker player, which doesn't take money from the house. He takes it from other players while feeding the house with rake from each pot.

There's really no such thing as a legal professional baccarat/blackjack/craps player. The odds, unless the player cheats is ALWAYS on the house. Even if it's Phil Ivey, a casino would want him to stay and play as long as possible, because they have the edge...unless of course he finds an edge like this.
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Old 12-27-2016, 01:35 PM   #6
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That's amazing.
Like a real life rainwoman? Because I am trying to imagine keeping 52 card patterns that are only minimally different tied to 52 different cards...**** sounds hard as hell.
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Old 12-27-2016, 01:38 PM   #7
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That's amazing.
Like a real life rainwoman? Because I am trying to imagine keeping 52 card patterns that are only minimally different tied to 52 different cards...**** sounds hard as hell.
If I remember the article right, it was 8 decks
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Old 12-27-2016, 01:40 PM   #8
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If I remember the article right, it was 8 decks
OCD on steroids. I bet she knows if the tassels on her carpet was stepped on.
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Old 12-27-2016, 01:42 PM   #9
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If I remember the article right, it was 8 decks
Jesus. Rainwoman for real.
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Old 12-27-2016, 01:52 PM   #10
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I saw a story (Down the Rabbit Hole on Netflix) on this group of Baccarat cheaters that use a camera up their sleeve and when they are offered to cut the 8 decks, a little "comb" brushes the corner of the deck and the camera captures all of the cards in sequence. Then a guy drops the footage off to another guy waiting in the bathroom and he texts the players the card sequence info on when to put in big bets.

That to me is cheating. Knowing how to win at a game without such a device doesn't seem like cheating to me.
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Old 12-27-2016, 01:57 PM   #11
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Her ability to be observant isnt cheating, but sharing info with a player sounds exactly like cheating.
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Old 12-27-2016, 01:58 PM   #12
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Her ability to be observant isnt cheating, but sharing info with a player sounds exactly like cheating.
Exactly.

If Ivey learned this technique and used it himself, no harm. But he has another player at the table tipping him off.
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Old 12-27-2016, 01:59 PM   #13
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It's cheating if you know cards from the backs, it removes an element of chance. Sure, the cards have faults, but exploiting those faults is cheating. Just like taking advantage of holes in operating systems is a bad thing.
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Old 12-27-2016, 02:02 PM   #14
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Ivey is a professional poker player, which doesn't take money from the house. He takes it from other players while feeding the house with rake from each pot.

There's really no such thing as a legal professional baccarat/blackjack/craps player. The odds, unless the player cheats is ALWAYS on the house. Even if it's Phil Ivey, a casino would want him to stay and play as long as possible, because they have the edge...unless of course he finds an edge like this.
Yes he's a poker pro, but he also makes money playing other games call that whatever you like. He was in a similar suit against another casino for a similar issue of reading card patterns. I believe that was a European based casino and the ruling was equally in the casinos favor.
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Old 12-27-2016, 02:09 PM   #15
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If only he could have just showed her how to play and taken a cut.
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Old 12-27-2016, 02:13 PM   #16
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It's cheating if you know cards from the backs, it removes an element of chance. Sure, the cards have faults, but exploiting those faults is cheating. Just like taking advantage of holes in operating systems is a bad thing.
Yes, but doing it yourself is kind of tough / impossible to prove short of admitting to your "strategy" Colluding with another player is pretty blatant.
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Old 12-27-2016, 02:13 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by chulooz View Post
Her ability to be observant isnt cheating, but sharing info with a player sounds exactly like cheating.
Counting cards in blackjack is just 'observing' but if a casino thinks you're doing it they can ban you.
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Old 12-27-2016, 02:17 PM   #18
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In Atlantic City, you're allowed to count cards without help, I believe. So they shuffle their cards a LOT. In LV, counting cards is not allowed.
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Old 12-27-2016, 02:19 PM   #19
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If I remember the article right, it was 8 decks
I don't think it really matters if it was 8 decks or 800 decks. They identified differences in the backs of the cards due to printing. So all King of hearts (for example) are this /// while the king of spades has a small smudge at the end. This difference would carry over for every single King of hearts / whatever that came off the printer.
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Old 12-27-2016, 02:20 PM   #20
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I don't think it really matters if it was 8 decks or 800 decks. They identified differences in the backs of the cards due to printing. So all King of hearts (for example) are this /// while the king of spades has a small smudge at the end. This difference would carry over for every single King of hearts / whatever that came off the printer.
Maybe it was 8 dicks then.
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Old 12-27-2016, 02:26 PM   #21
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Maybe it was 8 dicks then.
She memorized 8 dicks? In a row?

Try not to memorize any more dicks on your way to the parking lot!
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Old 12-27-2016, 03:03 PM   #22
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She memorized 8 dicks? In a row?

Try not to memorize any more dicks on your way to the parking lot!
Woman being woman. Amirite?
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Old 12-27-2016, 03:11 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by johnnyb View Post
I'd say the casino should have to let him keep it for allowing a PROFESSIONAL GAMBLER play at one of their tables.
CWB covered this one.

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Originally Posted by cwb124 View Post
If I remember the article right, it was 8 decks
Honda covered this one.

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Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
In Atlantic City, you're allowed to count cards without help, I believe. So they shuffle their cards a LOT. In LV, counting cards is not allowed.
So what, do they demand you somehow wipe your memory after every deal? Maybe that is what the free drinks are for?
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Old 12-27-2016, 03:16 PM   #24
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So what, do they demand you somehow wipe your memory after every deal? Maybe that is what the free drinks are for?
Beats me. I know there was a lawsuit in NJ where the judge allowed it. So the casinos in Atlantic City reshuffle a lot more than they do in LV.

Then there's this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/quora/...b_6857442.html
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Old 12-27-2016, 03:25 PM   #25
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I just want to know who in 2012 makes a deck of cards where the back isn't identical. I thought that was like rule 1 of making cards...
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