Rod Bearing Failure Nightmares/Stories (One thread to rule them all)

[Maxwell Power]

Originally Posted by john 1badSTI

Dom as always is spot on with his info and I think he will agree that a lot of the spun brgs are also due to tunes,all it takes is 1 bad incidence of det and bamm the oil cushion gets pushed out due to the increased cylinder pressure from the det and you get metal to metal.Once this happens the brgs life goes down hill quick,once the damage is done its done,it just gets worse.

very true.

keeping knock under control is paramount. Many tuners defeat some of the protection devices in the ecu without even realizing they are doing it. I tend to add extra protection by changing protection thresholds and ecu's authority.

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[Maxwell Power]

Originally Posted by car_freak85

So what do you put in YOUR subaru?

5w-50 synthetic
or
5w-40 synthetic depending on which of my cars you're talking about.

[john 1badSTI]

I prefer amsoil 15-50 dominator race oil,1 of a few that FP analyzed and recommends to be used with their turbos.

[pet3r]

Originally Posted by Maxwell Power

5w-50 synthetic
or
5w-40 synthetic depending on which of my cars you're talking about.

5w-40 of what brand/blend?

[CrazeePolak]

This thread scares the bajeezes out of me! I thought these cars can run forever up to stage 2! Should I be concerned running STage 2 ots map on 11 wrx? And I've been using the 5w30 Subaru Synthetic oil with subaru oil filter. Whats the best oil to use for my car? Can't afford to fix stuff at this point in my life so if I have to I guess ill go back t stock if its that bad.

[MaddMax]

Originally Posted by Maxwell Power

Lastly:
DON'T USE 5W-30!! Read the owner's manual. It even says not to use 5w-30 for anything other than commuting and daily driving. If you're trying to make power on 5w-30, you'll be spinning a bearing.

FYI, beginning in 2012, 5W-30 synthetic is the ONLY oil you can use in your 2012+ WRX if you want to maintain warranty coverage. Completely gone is the previous language that states using other grades like 5W-40 is acceptable in more severe driving conditions. The only mention of allowing the use of another grade of oil is for topping off and even then, it says replace the oil with 5W-30 synthetic.

If you have motor problems, you're under warranty, and you pull a stack of receipts showing that you're using a diesel-spec 5W-40 or some non-energy (SN/SM) conserving 5W-30 you certainly will be risking your warranty coverage with Subaru. m

Either something has changed inside the 2012 EJ25 turbos or Subaru engineers have become comfortable with 5W-30 as long as you're running synthetic.

With that said, I will likely start running 5W-40 when my warranty is up or may start using even under warranty. There are ways to get around this 5w-30 "requirement"

[Maxwell Power]

Originally Posted by CrazeePolak

This thread scares the bajeezes out of me! I thought these cars can run forever up to stage 2! Should I be concerned running STage 2 ots map on 11 wrx? And I've been using the 5w30 Subaru Synthetic oil with subaru oil filter. Whats the best oil to use for my car? Can't afford to fix stuff at this point in my life so if I have to I guess ill go back t stock if its that bad.

If you're running Cobb maps I wouldn't be worried. If you're running someone else's I might be. There are a lot of self proclaimed tuners out there who have almost no education and hardly any experience that sell maps.

The factory tune is not very good because they had to make the car run dangerously lean to pass emissions standards.

The biggest factor is YOU. How you treat the car plays the largest role in the longevity of the motor.
*If you rape on it before it's fully warmed, then you're the one screwing the car up.
*If you come in hot and shut it down immediately without letting it idle down for a while, you're at fault.
*If you're doing 4th and 5th gear highway pulls then you're abusing the car.
*If you're late on your oil changes or use crappy oil, you're damaging the engine.
No amount of tuning can compensate for idiot owners.

[car_freak85]

Originally Posted by Maxwell Power

*If you're doing 4th and 5th gear highway pulls then you're abusing the car.

Please elaborate.... Aren't you doing a 4th gear highway pull every time you make a pull on the dyno or hit a long straight on the track? I don't understand how this is bad enough for the engine to cause damage.

Yes, there will be a huge load in those gears at those speeds, but wtf?

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by Maxwell Power

Let me start by saying that we have had zero bearing failures from engines that we built with our methods. We have hundreds of engines around the globe running for years on high power, high rpm operation with zero failures. The only ones to ever fail are when customers insist on reusing certain parts: Rods, oil pan, oil pump, oil cooler etc.
When we did airplane engines we had NUMEROUS oil pump relief valves stick from small amounts of particulate left over in the oil pan. Regardless of how well it was cleaned, there is ALWAYS metal in it.

If a customer comes in with a spun bearing, we won't work on it until he agrees that he is changing:
Pan,
Pump
Cooler.
All our engine builds use new components so no more worry with resized rods, turned cranks etc.
Heads are disassembled and thoroughly cleaned.

All that is fine and dandy, but the most important part of an engine build is getting the clearance correct. ALL the clearances. The main bearings are more important than rod bearing clearances. When building engines with used blocks the mains are ALWAYS over 3 thou and sometimes closer to 5. If your builder says they aren't, uses HX bearings or something else, he's wrong. In hundreds of cases I have Never ever ever seen a used case come out with proper clearances using standard size bearings. Now some logic has to be used here in that most used cases are over 30k miles. If you have a 5k mile case, then I suppose the mains could still come out. However, we don't get 5k mile cases. I can't imagine many people do.

Now you're probably wondering "wait you said you use all new components, but now you're saying you use used cases".
Let me clarify:
1. For new builds we no longer use old cases. This policy has been in effect for about two years. We used to rebuild a lot of motors but they took more money and time than they were worth.
2. We only use used cases for sleeved, high horsepower cases. In each of those cases we mill the inside surface of the case flat and shoot the mains again. They are NEVER even close to being flat when we get them. This is because the engine has been cycled, seasoned and stress relieved. This is why the mains are always big on used cases. That is the same reason we use them for sleeving. We don't want the cases to wander after sleeving.

Lastly:
DON'T USE 5W-30!! Read the owner's manual. It even says not to use 5w-30 for anything other than commuting and daily driving. If you're trying to make power on 5w-30, you'll be spinning a bearing.
Don't use Mobile 1. Why?
1. Mobile 1 engines are always some of the cleanest engines when we take them apart. No oil residue anywhere. That makes no sense to me. If your oil is adhering to surfaces and providing lubrication there should at least be a little residue.
2. The only engines I have ever seen with bucket or cam failure have been Mobile 1 engines.
3. I have seen oil tests that cover film thickness, viscosity and friction over the temperature and pressure range and that oil just doesn't cut it.

CN:
replace it once or replace it twice
do it right once
don't use 5w-30 or mobile 1

I'm not sure why people say no to Mobil1 as a brand when they make several excellent and robust oils. Mobil1 0W-40 has many Euro manufacture specs, has a nice additive package with a decent dose of zinc. M1 TDT 5W-40 is thicker in all temps than RT6.

I can see recommending not to use Resource Conserving 5W-30 of ANY brand, but there is no merit to say not to use M1 as a brand. I'll be posting a used oil analysis on M1 0W-40 soon.

-Dennis

[Maxwell Power]

Originally Posted by bluesubie

I'm not sure why people say no to you Mobil1 as a brand when they make several excellent and robust oils. Mobil1 0W-40 has many Euro manufacture specs, has a nice additive package with a decent dose of zinc. M1 TDT 5W-40 is thicker in all temps than RT6.

I can see recommending not to use Resource Conserving 5W-30 of ANY brand, but there is no merit to say not to use M1 as a brand. I'll be posting a used oil analysis on M1 0W-40 soon.

-Dennis

seen a lot of graphs showing shear strength, film thickness, friction coefficient and viscosity over temperature have you?

Nobody here is forced to do as I say. If they choose to use Mobile 1, that's their decision. I haven't laid out some set of laws that govern the land. If you don't agree, use whatever you want.

Regardless of that, I've seen the charts when dealing with many types of oils and seen friction experiments that put many oils against each other and M1 usually comes out low on the list.

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by Maxwell Power

seen a lot of graphs showing shear strength, film thickness, friction coefficient and viscosity over temperature have you?

Nobody here is forced to do as I say. If they choose to use Mobile 1, that's their decision. I haven't laid out some set of laws that govern the land. If you don't agree, use whatever you want.

Regardless of that, I've seen the charts when dealing with many types of oils and seen friction experiments that put many oils against each other and M1 usually comes out low on the list.

Got a link to these graphs and charts? I would love to see them as I'm curious how they measured shear strength and film thickness. Many small oil blenders estimate High Temp High Shear because the test is so expensive.

I prefer to go by used oil analysis or an ASTM test. And there is plenty of data that can be found on bobistheoilguy and an oil manufacturer is NOT going to get European ACEA specs, Porsche A40 specs, VW 502/505, BMW LL 01, and Mercedes Benz 229.3/229.5 specs on an inferior oil.

-Dennis

P.S. - My $25 uoa tells me viscosity over temperature. 13.5 CentiStokes at 212F to be exact which is pretty freaking good for the conditions! My previous run on M1 0W-40 API SM version was just fine as well.

[06trackguy]

Hey guys! So I just bought a low km 2006 STI and I want to make some power before next summer (maybe 300-350whp). I've done as much research as I can on Nasioc and all i can find in regards to oil is that I should be using 5W30. Currently I'm running Mobil 1.
As you can understand after reading this thread i was a little nervous after hearing what Dom had to say. I 100% trust his opinion so i was wondering if someone could tell me which type of oil I should be using to maximise my motors lifespan if i want to make power.
Thanks guys!!

[Bad Noodle]

Originally Posted by Maxwell Power

When we did airplane engines we had NUMEROUS oil pump relief valves stick from small amounts of particulate left over in the oil pan. Regardless of how well it was cleaned, there is ALWAYS metal in it.

If a customer comes in with a spun bearing, we won't work on it until he agrees that he is changing:
Pan,
Pump
Cooler.
All our engine builds use new components so no more worry with resized rods, turned cranks etc.
Heads are disassembled and thoroughly cleaned.

the truf

I'm in the middle of a build right now and spent a good hour or so cleaning the oil pump. Getting all the threebond off, getting in all the cracks.

I thought i was done, but for the hell of it, I took off the bottom plugs and found:


(sorry for the bad cell phone pic)

Yes, bearing material stuck to the sludge on the caps. And that is after I cleaned in there with degreaser and pipe cleaner.

If a shop is doing the rebuilt, it's just cheaper to use new components than it is to take the time and clean the older ones.

[Schikane]

Originally Posted by bluesubie

I'm not sure why people say no to Mobil1 as a brand when they make several excellent and robust oils. Mobil1 0W-40 has many Euro manufacture specs, has a nice additive package with a decent dose of zinc. M1 TDT 5W-40 is thicker in all temps than RT6.

I can see recommending not to use Resource Conserving 5W-30 of ANY brand, but there is no merit to say not to use M1 as a brand. I'll be posting a used oil analysis on M1 0W-40 soon.

-Dennis

Interested in seeing the numbers and hearing your thoughts on this oil. Will you be posting it here or over at BITOG?

Thanks

[Spec R]

good info in this thread. its unfortunate that we have to treat these engines as a "not if, but when the motor blows" situation.

[Uncle Scotty]

[subi400]

Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

No comment this time...really??? I am glad Dom said what he said about his built engines and that overall any 5w30 oil isn't going to cut it for most people running a turboed subaru.

I am still tying to tell a few people here about why not to use a 5w30 in their turboed subaru... No one wants to hear the dreaded knock knock....

I am about to have a used shortblock rebuilt and will be rethinking some of the parts I was thinking of reusing. This is for an NA engine but still important none the less. I know oil is technical for a subaru engine, but the life of it is important in regards to weight, additive package, shear strength and so on. My friend Scott wants to rebuild a subaru turbo engine and will definitely be passing this good info onto him

[subi400]

Originally Posted by Maxwell Power

If you're running Cobb maps I wouldn't be worried. If you're running someone else's I might be. There are a lot of self proclaimed tuners out there who have almost no education and hardly any experience that sell maps.

The factory tune is not very good because they had to make the car run dangerously lean to pass emissions standards.

The biggest factor is YOU. How you treat the car plays the largest role in the longevity of the motor.
*If you rape on it before it's fully warmed, then you're the one screwing the car up.
*If you come in hot and shut it down immediately without letting it idle down for a while, you're at fault.
*If you're doing 4th and 5th gear highway pulls then you're abusing the car.
*If you're late on your oil changes or use crappy oil, you're damaging the engine.
No amount of tuning can compensate for idiot owners.

Well said

[uhhhson]

Hello, Im new to the whole forums thing and posting. This is my first post.
I have a 2008 WRX that spun rod #2. Milage on the car at the time was 56xxx miles. I have an aquamist system on the car. At the time I was installing gauges so I had the meth gauge unplugged. I was getting into boost with normal driving but I was not spraying because the gauge was unplugged which cause the bearing to go. I felt it was a good opportunity to have the motor rebuilt. Did 280 cams, pistons, rods, piston rings, block was machined headstuds, valves, valve springs, heads were ported and polished. ect I've currently only had the car back for 300ish miles. Still doing the break in.

[jlukowski]

Originally Posted by car_freak85

Please elaborate.... Aren't you doing a 4th gear highway pull every time you make a pull on the dyno or hit a long straight on the track? I don't understand how this is bad enough for the engine to cause damage.

Yes, there will be a huge load in those gears at those speeds, but wtf?

This was never answered, but m curious, too.

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by Schikane

Interested in seeing the numbers and hearing your thoughts on this oil. Will you be posting it here or over at BITOG?

Thanks

Both.

-Dennis

[Zackbo]

Originally Posted by john 1badSTI

Dom as always is spot on with his info and I think he will agree that a lot of the spun brgs are also due to tunes,all it takes is 1 bad incidence of det and bamm the oil cushion gets pushed out due to the increased cylinder pressure from the det and you get metal to metal.Once this happens the brgs life goes down hill quick,once the damage is done its done,it just gets worse.

I also think det is a big cause of bearing failure, but I think a heavier oil can help prevent this. Thin oil and a bad tune is a very bad combination for rod bearings.

I'm curious if Dom's emphasis on main bearings primarily has to do with oil control.

[CrazeePolak]

Originally Posted by Zackbo

I also think det is a big cause of bearing failure, but I think a heavier oil can help prevent this. Thin oil and a bad tune is a very bad combination for rod bearings.

I'm curious if Dom's emphasis on main bearings primarily has to do with oil control.

What constitutes a "bad tune" ? This is what I'm confused with. If I'm checking my datalogs regularly and seeing 0 Feedback knock does that mean I have a good tune? I'm confused

[MaddMax]

Originally Posted by Maxwell Power

The biggest factor is YOU. How you treat the car plays the largest role in the longevity of the motor.
*If you rape on it before it's fully warmed, then you're the one screwing the car up.
*If you're doing 4th and 5th gear highway pulls then you're abusing the car.
No amount of tuning can compensate for idiot owners.

I think these two are the most important to consider.

1) Don't beat on your motor until the oil is fully warmed and at the right visocity. This can take typically around 10 minutes.

2) High load, high gear pulls can be dangerous if your motor experiences a dangerously lean condition and knock. The reason being more boost is generated in these gears and it takes longer to accelerate through the rpm band which means there's more time for potential problems to damage the motor. In the lower gears, the motor quickly accelerates through the rpm band and any fueling and knock issues, while possibly present, don't have quite the time or potential to wreck the motor as easily. Less boost, power, and load (due to torque multiplication of the tranny) is realized as well.

[Juice66]

Uncle Scotty and Maxwell Power, what oil brands do you guys use??