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Old 09-10-2014, 12:32 AM   #126
snoopy_sti
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So let me see if I hear this right..... 5th is gone and you drove up with the AP in your car a down pipe and intake and you want them to cover under warranty.

Be nice and maybe they will meet you half way. If not you will find them pulling out a SOA document that is very extensive in how what they have found increases engine output and puts excessive strain on the drive train. To which you will have to get an attorney and a engineer that will basically tell you that you lost. So save yourself legal fees. Its not like you change your freaking bulbs to LED and the transmission went.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Godders View Post
I am about to lock horns with Subaru of Kennesaw in GA.
5th gear decided it was time to vanish as I was driving home, They immediately saw the stickers, Accessport, intake, downpipe and assumed I race it....I don't and never have raced the car.

FTC Magnuson Moss Act of 1975 states that (dumbing it down); you can do or add any aftermarket parts you want to a car WITHOUT it voiding the warranty. A dealership/manufacturer is legally obligated to prove that the part you installed was directly responsible for the failed parts failure, in my case the transmission.
The only other exception is for the manufacturer to specifically name aftermarket parts that will void the warranty, that is also illegal and SEMA would climb all over them.

The threatening crap that is in most warranties is a smoke screen to scare you from making the claim, now be warned, if you upgraded something and another part directly related to that part fails.....pay for the repair and move on.

Don't be afraid to challenge them and read the Magnuson Moss Act of 1975....it is a LAW that protects you the consumer. SEMA is an organization that protects the rights of the aftermarket manufacturers.




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Old 09-12-2014, 09:26 AM   #127
Godders
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Default Can dealer tell if accessport was on car??

With all due respect, your reaction is EXACTLY what the dealers feed on and why so many people just cave in and pay up when they shouldn't. If I were a racer or I red lined it every day, yeah....in my eyes I'd probably feel I was being unfair in trying to fight this - I don't race or red line it. I'm an enthusiast, I did the mods to the car because I can and because it makes a good car much more fun to drive....the power is there when I need it and not because I want to hammer it every mile I drive.

There are little known laws that protect the consumer, particularly with vehicles.

Law states; for a warranty to be denied the manufacturer must show proof of how an aftermarket part was the DIRECT cause of the failed part. The wording of the warranties is a smokescreen and yes the dealer will stand there boldly stating that your warranty is void just because it's been modded, this is 100% utter crap. Look up SEMA, the organization who stand against car manufactures and stand up for the aftermarket parts industry, also look up the Magnuson Moss Act of 1975.

To your point about the 'light bulb', it is exactly the same scenario in that there is NO direct connection between an Accessport, air intake or downpipe. They are parts that relate directly to the engine, and indirectly to the transmission. There is also the issue of it being 5th gear that went under normal driving conditions, if 1, 2, 3 or even 4th had gone then they would have grounds to be suspicious....but 5th gear?

I may or may not win, either way I'll post here. Had they just said we won't replace it but we'll rebuild it instead, I'd have smiled and accepted. The fact they bold faced lied, went digging through my personal belongings in the car and tried to strong arm me.....no way...not happening.

I was on great terms with these guys until I very politely challenged them without sounding cocky or arrogant.

Their tone changed instantly and the service manager took on this very cold and unprofessional attitude, he started telling me lies and other info that my attorney was staggered he wrote in an email.


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Last edited by Godders; 09-12-2014 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 09-12-2014, 09:31 AM   #128
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Default Can dealer tell if accessport was on car??

I'm 3 weeks into the dispute, hopefully we'll resolve it sooner rather than later

Last edited by Godders; 09-12-2014 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 09-12-2014, 10:55 AM   #129
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Good info.
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Old 09-13-2014, 12:23 AM   #130
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First off I am an advocate for modifying these cars. Don't get me wrong on that. However, with that said, you have to understand that you are liable for drivetrain related failures. SOA is not looking at what your intention was. They don't care. Whether your gearbox was going to crap out on the stock tune or with an AP tune is just a flip of a coin. However, once you install something that is going to increase the torque and horsepower and put more demand on the gearbox you took yourself outside of the warranty. There is a direct cause and effect of increasing the output for what the car was designed for. So you kinda screwed yourself. You assume the risk when you install the parts and mod. With that said SOA does not have to even deal with you on the issue. Hopefully they do, but in any court you will loose. Furthermore, with them seeing your build and the AP in the car they will note it that you had these parts installed so down the line if you blow out a ring land they will deny you on that too.

I am well aware of SEMA, I live in Vegas and go to the show every year. That does not protect you.

Before you decided to mod your car did you ever read a thread on this forum? Why in hell would you leave an AP in your car in the fist place? Please don't get me wrong with this because I am not trying to incite warranty fraud here. But why in the hell would you take a stage car into a dealership for a drivetrain issue with stage 2 parts on the car? Who does that crap? Are you that entitled?

"there is NO direct connection between an Accessport, air intake or downpipe. They are parts that relate directly to the engine, and indirectly to the transmission."
Yes they do. What do you think spins your wheels so your feel the gains you added on?

Try to be nice to your dealership and maybe they will help you.
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Old 09-17-2014, 12:01 PM   #131
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Its crazy how in this gaint community. Not one subaru dealership mechanic has chimend in on this topic. Like cmon people there thousands of us. There has to be someone that check ECU for reflash or anything else that can be used against you in warranty claim.
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Old 09-17-2014, 12:44 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunkybear View Post
Its crazy how in this gaint community. Not one subaru dealership mechanic has chimend in on this topic. Like cmon people there thousands of us. There has to be someone that check ECU for reflash or anything else that can be used against you in warranty claim.

There actually has been a handful of techs/salespeople that have commented on this topic. So far it has been conflicting responses


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Old 09-18-2014, 11:23 AM   #133
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It sounds like if the dealer really wants to know, they can find out.

Alternatively, Mishimoto was saying in their tuning thread that their tuning method is undetectable if you restore the stock map. Is this just smoke?? I thought ecutek was even more detectable than an AP?

Quote:
The ECU can be reset with the stock MAP and the dealership will not be able to detect this. 2008+ models will have a key cycle counter which can be referenced by the dealer. This counter is reset any time the battery is disconnected or the ECU is programmed.
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Old 09-19-2014, 08:02 AM   #134
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once the AP is un-installed the only thing the dealer can see is the number of key cycle's and if the emissions is in a ready state. So it would appear in the same state as if you disconnected the battery and reset the ECU that way. Just say you disconnected the battery for a radio install.
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Old 09-19-2014, 09:50 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy8818 View Post
once the AP is un-installed the only thing the dealer can see is the number of key cycle's and if the emissions is in a ready state. So it would appear in the same state as if you disconnected the battery and reset the ECU that way. Just say you disconnected the battery for a radio install.
So you could say," I disconnected the battery to change the interior lights."?

Or turn the key a few 100 times before going to the dealer?

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Old 09-20-2014, 12:35 AM   #136
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Yes, yes, yes.
The AP when un-installed will write back everything on to the ECU the exact way it was from factory. So the only things left are the emissions readiness codes and the key cycle count that could be accessed. All of which would be reset if the battery was disconnected.
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Old 09-22-2014, 04:34 PM   #137
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Not sure about the key cycles but they can see warm up cycles... That can't be fudged.
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Old 12-22-2014, 10:47 PM   #138
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I wanted to go ahead and revive this old thread for anyone new out there that might be considering the AP like I am.

To start off, I'll offer this disclaimer: I am not an ECU expert, nor have I ever been inside one. The following is meant to provide some clarity on technology, and is based on my own assumptions. It should be taken with a grain of salt.

Your ECU:

The ECU in your car likely uses a basic EPROM (Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory). The most notable application of this technology is to store the BIOS (Basic Input/Output System) for your PC. This is essentially what determines which ports are what, such as PCIE/USB/SATA/etc., along with basic operating parameters such as CPU clock speed and voltage, memory speed and voltage, etc..

I would be very surprised if a vehicle's ECU did not employ this technology. The "map" could be stored here, along with default operating parameters outside of the map (failsafe mode). If the ECU is indeed using this technology, and if Cobb's AP is in fact accessing this EPROM, then saving the original data and then writing it back would prove hard to detect. There likely wouldn't be evidence of this happening within the EPROM itself.

This is a very crude example, but picture a glass of water that is completely full of water (absolute 100%). If you were to pour every molecule of that water into another container, save it, and then drink soda out of that glass of water, it would be hard to tell the glass had soda in it previously, if you poured the original water back into it. Any existing soda would be displaced by the water. Likewise, when you "erase" that water, all you're doing is saying "OK, I don't need this water anymore; replace it with this other liquid whenever is necessary". To completely wipe the evidence of that original water, you would need to fill the glass with something different and leave it that way.

TL;DR: You cannot typically erase data, and can only replace data. EPROMS in particular, however, do have the ability to be wiped clean by removing the special UV seal on the chip itself.

Cobb AP:

With the Cobb AP, what it sounds like is happening (using the above analogy), is that original glass of water is being saved to the AP device, and when you unmarry it, that water is being put back and is overwriting the tune data (soda).

Having said that, all bets are off if there's another module that is capable of recording the number of times data has been added/removed/overwritten to that EPROM. It might also be possible that there is additional data that is left over from the AP install. I'm curious about that.

Another thing I'm curious about is whether or not Cobb knows if there is a "root" level of the memory module for the ECU. And if so, if the AP is accessing that root level as well.

The below is an example of the memory hierarchy I'm envisioning:

1. <upper level/root> Programming/data for the ECU itself, such as how to "learn", what the "safe" parameters are, etc.

-------> 2. <main level> Engine parameters/base map/etc

----------------> 3. <secondary level> "Hot" map or "learned" map

If not, it's possible that there is a security feature built in that doesn't allow access to the upper level of memory. While it's not likely that this "security feature" would record any type of flashes, it likely would have some type of tamper evident, digital "seal" that would need to be broken in order to change basic parameters of the ECU (NOT the maps).

"Resetting" your ECU:

This is just a guess, but this is how I envision an ECU reset working: When you disconnect the battery, the ECU says "OK, that <secondary level> data needs to be overwritten. Something has happened and it's time to re-learn everything."

When you "flash" a new map, it's likely being stored to the <main level> memory; when you reset the ECU, that <main level> data is re-loaded. So, if you think of it that way, resetting the ECU won't remove the map.

This is another guess, but I would imagine it isn't hard to tell the last time the ECU was reset due to the "age" of the above data.

fin.

Again, I cannot stress this enough - I'm only offering some (hopefully) educational conjecture. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 02-19-2015, 09:42 PM   #139
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I was considering stage 1 for the purpose of a healthier tune, ive gone back and forth about the decision especially since I purchased the 100k mile powertrain warranty. The whole thing has lost its appeal... I really like Subaru as a brand though and will likely trade the wrx in for a legacy or crosstrek when the time comes.

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Old 02-20-2015, 03:54 PM   #140
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double post

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Old 02-20-2015, 06:02 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
To completely uninstall the version 2 or version 3 Accessport, you must select the Uninstall menu option on the Accessport (and confirm that the process completes). This will restore the ECU to the image that was backed-up during the install process. If you instead change to the "installed stock mode" map, this is not the same as the uninstall process.

When you reflash a map (when you change maps or install/uninstall the Accessport), the ECU will be reset. This happens regardless of the solution you use to tune the ECU. This is basically the same as if you disconnected the car's battery or reset the ECU via an OBDII scanner.

**The dealership has the ability to tell essentially when the ECU was last reset. So, depending on how much of a leap they are willing to make, they may infer that you had some kind of tune on there, even though this is not direct evidence. If that is combined with other evidence of hard parts mods (downpipe or intake) or evidence that mods were removed (ex. marks on downpipe bolts/nuts), that may increase the chances of a denial of a claim.**

Bill
This is as close as your going to get to a decent answer here.

I too have thought about the possibility of warranty denial due to my V3, installed at 14k, but I am waiting till my 36k bumper to bumper is up this December to install my other parts.

Also being a mechanic myself, the last part of cobbs response I can attest to, fresh marks from hardware bolts, nuts, etc. Can definitely be seen if parts were taken off of the car recently. Especially if your stock parts will either be; super clean with no dirt or grime, or dusty from sitting in storage, will not look the same as your other items in your engine bay. This can cause questions for the dealer to deny your claim for warranty work.
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Old 02-20-2015, 06:12 PM   #142
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Depends on the dealership entirely. Service departments get paid by doing warranty work so it isn't exactly in their best interest to deny coverage on an engine repair that may be a result of owner negligence. The bottom line is there are 3 options when it comes to this question:

1: Accept that flashing your car with an AP voids its powertrain warranty. If you drive the car like a total moron and blow the motor/trans as a result of bad tuning and/or abuse then be willing to pony up the repair costs yourself if something breaks.

2: Lack a conscience and return your car to stock and unmarry the AP before you tow your car to the dealer to get the motor and/or trans replaced after you do something moronic that causes a failure. NOTE: mentioning this to anyone on the forums here is highly frowned upon and people will go out of their way to make sure the dealership denies your coverage! (with good reason)

3: Blatantly roll into the dealer with the AP married, the TBE installed (and other mods) and try to get coverage and see what happens. Surprisingly maybe they will STILL warrant your car if it was a known defect (like ringlands)! *GASP*

Bottom Line, I've never heard of a OTS AP map blowing up a motor or damaging a transmission. Every story I've seen of someone blowing their motor and/or trans had to do with them driving the car like a total idiot and they deserve to pay the costs out of pocket NOT get warranty coverage regardless of whether they had a AP or not.

The other blown motor stories I see have to do with known defects in the design of the engine. For example ringlands. If your motors ringlands fail and you had a AP flashed to the car at the time, the reason the motor failed is the ringlands not the AP!! (duh) I've heard of dealerships covering the car no problem but some dealerships aren't mod friendly while others are. So find out which one in your area is mod friendly.
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Old 02-20-2015, 11:18 PM   #143
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Subaru Tech did an AMA over at reddit.
http://www.reddit.com/r/subaru/comme...ship_tech_amaa
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Old 02-21-2015, 09:05 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xgotboostx View Post
Subaru Tech did an AMA over at reddit.
http://www.reddit.com/r/subaru/comme...ship_tech_amaa
There's a lot of "hearsay" from this "tech".

I'd like to call on Cobb Tuning to speak up again and update this post for newer model cars, esp the '15 WRX/STI owners here.
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Old 03-05-2015, 01:50 PM   #145
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Subaru recently implemented a black box and disseminate that fact in there manuals. It would benefit them to tell us for sure they can detect. Being sneaky only costs them money for sending reps and analyzing ecus

The new cars can detect, the old ones most likely cannot unless your ecu has no learned values (reset)

If Subaru told you it couldn't, then they would be fixing a lot more motors. If they told you they could, fewer people would modify their cars. If they showed you they can detect, hardly any one would modify the car.

Figure out the model number and contact the manufacturer.
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Old 03-06-2015, 09:28 AM   #146
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The new box records the last 60 seconds before an accident i believe some buddy already chimed in on that. And mr vapour got a new engine with a ap and aem intake installed
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Old 03-06-2015, 10:40 AM   #147
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lolzz

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Old 03-08-2015, 02:36 PM   #148
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They can tell by how many key cycles u have


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Old 03-08-2015, 06:50 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 15limited View Post
The new box records the last 60 seconds before an accident i believe some buddy already chimed in on that. And mr vapour got a new engine with a ap and aem intake installed
Vapor got his engine fixed?!?!!? f***ing hell
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Old 03-08-2015, 10:50 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 15limited View Post
The new box records the last 60 seconds before an accident i believe some buddy already chimed in on that. And mr vapour got a new engine with a ap and aem intake installed
Really how do you know?
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