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Old 01-11-2019, 03:53 PM   #51
JRowland
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Sincerely yours,

Nut Rider
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:16 PM   #52
Stija
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So many haters, but I guess it’s the only thing left once you have no arguments or pros to list..

So far we have:

1. Cost, fraction of catted cost
2. More power (how much depends on your imagination)
3.

Cons:

1. Illegal in some states
2. Questionable emission standards and passing
3. Noise
4. Creep
5. Smell
6.

Most of cons listed by OP himself.
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:20 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Stija View Post
More power? Have you actually seen a dyno on same setup and same day with and without cats? Reason 2 and 4 fall under reason 1, which is debatable to say the least. Unless you mean 1-3whp difference cuz I will give you that right away, even 5 without debating

Having to deal with catalytic issues?? Really? I find that laughable unless you mean the odor, the illegality and possibility of a ticket, not being able to pass emission standards in most states, smell, noise, and more. You're obviously an asterisk and heavily biased without even realizing it.

And yes, reason 3 should really be reason 1, lets be honest about it.


None personal. But I know its real and it happens, and I know that tuners prefer not to tune and play with boost creep. However that seems to be BS or cause for arguments with some.
Yes traditionally having no catalytic converter yields more power and quicker turbo response time. OEM catalytic converters have a very large pressure drop, restricting the turbo operation. Aftermarket catalytic converters are high flow, meaning they aren't as effective as OEM in terms of dealing with pollution but good enough for the turbo to operate efficiently.

OK so this isn't a law forum but what if I told you having no catalytic converter is totally legal in many areas of the world?

Ever heard of the P0420 code? Well that's most of your issues right there. Catalytic converters are very sensitive to oil and other crap the engine can potentially spew out.

There is no detriment to being catless if you don't experience boost creep, which again, many of us don't.

Having a catalytic converter isn't a bad thing but the technical benefits are almost strictly environmental. I didn't go catless to save $200 or to gain extra horsepower. I went catless because it's one less thing to deal with.

You read about boost creep on a website and suddenly you're the expert though, right?

The problem here is you have little experience and very little clue about how forced induction engines work. We get it, YOU joined the game late when most the knowledge is present. Tuner likely suggested you a catalytic converter and you probably had your stage 2 installed at a shop. Great, you've avoided a potential issue. Hell, I'm agreeing on your decision to get a catalytic converter.

Look, the point is that over the last 5 years, many of us learned from mistakes as a community, a benefit TO YOU, a newcomer. This is how the aftermarket community operates. We mod, sometimes we **** up, but we learn, and we learn LOTS. Where I live, it's high altitude and there's no laws against exhausts and the general consensus is that boost creep where I'm located is not an issue.

The advice I have for you is to continue participating and learn before posting your opinions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlarryHoodDIT View Post
I don't get why you guys are arguing with this clown. In the month hes been here he has repeatedly shown he has zero clue what hes talking about. He proudly boasts about his lack of first hand experience and touts his internet knowledge as supreme. Hes a 45 year old man with the reasoning skills of a 6 year old...
Dude I know.

"I got my first Subaru, joined NASIOC, got an exhaust with a catalytic converter and I read about boost creep, you're all wrong, I know everything."

And damn, I would've guessed he's 16.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stija View Post
So many haters, but I guess it’s the only thing left once you have no arguments or pros to list..

So far we have:

1. Cost, fraction of catted cost
2. More power (how much depends on your imagination)
3.

Cons:

1. Illegal in some states
2. Questionable emission standards and passing
3. Noise
4. Creep
5. Smell
6.

Most of cons listed by OP himself.
Again, catalytic converters get HOT. They sure as hell can have issues. Do you know what rednecks around here do when their $1500 OEM cat fails? Cut it out and weld a pipe. If you're planning to keep stage 2 forever, sure a cat is a good idea. But if you're going to return it back to stock once you sell or trade in the car, nah.

Oh and FYI your high flow catalytic converter is probably illegal too.

Here, I googled something: http://waselrosa.com/advantages-and-...ic-converters/

And dude, wake up, ANYTHING that the government mandates in a vehicle, isn't actually good for the vehicle. If there were no emission standards, there would be no catalytic converters in cars.

Last edited by mishapopa; 01-11-2019 at 04:30 PM.
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:26 PM   #54
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And damn, I would've guessed he's 16.
And like everything else assumed about me you’d be wrong.

I guess on an Internet forum your join date is your inception date to cars and life in general. At least “I read something by a professional” instead of just assuming I know everything like someone else.

I know that it is legal in many areas. It is also illegal in many areas. Depends on circumstances.

So you gained having an issue with a catalytic converters in the future, spending money for it and improving performance of your car. That’s you. From my perspective, I’ve never had a bad catalytic converter or that code which wasn’t resolved with a bad oxygen sensor replacement. Ever. 8 cars, almost million miles. So to me that means nothing. To you it does, based on what? How many times in past personally?

How much performance did you gain or how much does your engine work better because of this evil govt device? Put a number on it or tell me you saw dyno charts and what they were. I did see one on you tube and gain was 6whp. On a highly tuner car. Most our cars aren’t nightly tuned cars, I’d say mediums.

But then you have the obvious cons, increase in smell and noise and drone. And possible creep and engine boom. The fact that I didn’t have it personally doesn’t make it non real, watch you tube videos if you cared to. Push your car to redline like you would in summer and check, why resist something which isn’t real.

Then you have legal issues in where 3/4 of population lives.

None of these cats are oem on j pipes. They are 100-200 cell cats barely legal.

I’d assume you have taken the egr off and tgv deletes as well otherwise the substance of your argument falls apart, as govt devices being restrictive and all.

Last edited by Stija; 01-11-2019 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:41 PM   #55
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You've so far demonstrated to be:
- Clueless
- Passive aggressive
- Annoying

I read somewhere (written by a professional) that narcissists have the brain capacity of a 6 year old.

Good luck.
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:46 PM   #56
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:47 PM   #57
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Derailing forums since at least 2013

http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/view...=9306&start=20
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:50 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by JRowland View Post
Derailing forums since at least 2013

http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/view...=9306&start=20
That just rich lmaooo
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:50 PM   #59
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That is hilarious.
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:11 PM   #60
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Wow. And all I was going for is to demonstrate that you have nothing to back up catless being better argument other than that you decided to do it because you believe it. Or have you actually had cats failed before and instead of saying that you decided to personal attack?

I thought we were arguing practical data not just what we believe. Otherwise I’d have just said that and I wasted a lot of typing. Got it. You believe catless is better cuz govt people are after you with evil devices.

Have you deleted tgv and egr too? Or no? It’s just cats?

Well I believe you’re full of ****, pardon my French. You can’t even be congruent with your self in your arguments and they have no substance other than you believe it and govt devices bad. I also believe you bought a catless pipe cuz it can be had for 200$ for some fun until you return the car instead of “messing with cats and paying 500$+” for same fun. That’s the whole reason.

That’s what I believe.

I also believe you don’t even have a professional tune or a egr or tgv deletes cuz they both cost money and you opt for the cheap play OTS maps instead like the average person here. Why spend money or pro tune when you gonna trade it in for some other car soon. In this believe game anything is possible if you’re passionate enough.

Last edited by Stija; 01-11-2019 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:18 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Stija View Post
Or you read in something I didn't say. I never said it will cause creep 100%.

I simply stated that I would never set up my car in such a way that it CAN cause me issues, but it MAY not. Let me spend $$ and time to roll the dice. No thank you.

But you did make me think of two reasons to go catless:

1. One is poor or cheap and cannot/wont afford 2x the price for the catted
2. One read somewhere or belives that catless allows for more hp.

You have failed to give us one reason to go catless over catted. Do you mind sharing it? It may be something I haven't read and don't know about. I mean there must have been a reason why you went catless over catted, right?
May not have said it but you certainly make it seem that way.
"Why would I tune my car to have issues so I cant go wot when I want to like any normal setup?" As if going catless is going to always have issues and yes there must be a reason.
I was not/ am not worried about boost creep so the options were
$600 to pass emissions and not smell as much
$300, will smell and cant pass
In my situation it seems like a very clear choice
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:22 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Stija View Post
@noob

OP asked about pros/cons of going catless in THIS thread. TWO (2) people posted that they have boost creep and/or stay out of boost to avoid it in cold weather. That's two factual data points. You like data.

I said it can cause boost creep/other issues I would never go catless.

How does all of that hurt your feelings?

@adam99

you practically attacked my for not stating any pros and cons, yet I am asking you to give me one pro for going catless which I didn't mention in 1. and 2. I am sorry if that comes across as being an ass, but its just the flipside of the coin you hit me with not too long ago.

My posts don't just go with the flow, but are congruent with each other even if that means it must go against the genereal common belief. If you don't like them ignore them or feel free to comment, but you cant say that SAYING CREEP EXISTS IS NONSENSE WHEN TWO POSTERS IN THE THREAD SAY THEY ACTUALLY AVOID BOOSTING IN COLD WEATHER BECUASE OF CREEP. Now that's just nonsense or laziness because you didn't even bother reading but came here to flame me noob.
Ok ill wrap this up, from seeing your posts in other threads and how you've reacted to this I've come to the conclusion that you're either a complete idiot or a troll, hoping its the latter. Enjoy!
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:28 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRowland View Post
Derailing forums since at least 2013

http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/view...=9306&start=20
How the f**k did you find that??
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:30 PM   #64
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We can argue whether sky is blue or not but the facts remain.

Do you consider the smell, noise, or not being able to pass emissions and being ticketed potentially as issues? Yes, I do.

But at least you’re honest, as catted vs catless really boils down to $$.

Last edited by Stija; 01-11-2019 at 07:00 PM.
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Old 01-11-2019, 07:56 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by adam99 View Post
How the f**k did you find that??
I wasnít around much over the summer, bought a new house and played with bikes. Barely drove my car so I was filling my head with different knowledge. Came back once I started commuting by car again and this clown is polluting the place with misinformation. New people were seeming to think his advice was sound, it sounded good for the most part but if you know you know BS. Then he started being a douche to people that disagreed, some of who I respect from reading their posts over time and seeing what kind of people they are. I got triggered a couple of times which is pretty abnormal for me. It was suggested I should ignore him which I knew was what I should have been doing. I managed to do that until today, again he twisted words and frustrated people whoís posts I generally enjoy. I like this place and I hate false truths being tossed about as fact, and I donít want to see good posters go away because of some jackass. Most of the dummies get driven away here, it can sometimes be not the warmest or fuzziest forum. Someone else threw out the word narcissist, whatever the personality type this dude isnít going to just go away. Moderation here is having its own problems so I doubt he will get tossed either.

TLDR - Google Fu
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:20 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by ecastle View Post
Hey guys, so Iím looking to buy a jpipe, and before I get flamed for even saying catless, I know that running a catless you get boost creep and you will need a 3-port EBCS. If I go catless I will be installing a EBCS, and getting a etune. Either way I will be getting an etune. But I want to know if going catless will it have more drone? Will the smell get into the cabin? I have to drive this car for about 3 hours once a month so I will like to keep it relatively comfortable as far as in cabin sound goes. Let me know what you guys run, whatíre the pros and cons of both in your opinions! Thanks
Sorry for what happened to this thread. If you have any further questions please just ask
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:40 PM   #67
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He did ask, unless you mean for him to ask again.

Why don't you make him a list of pros and cons, like you asked me to, instead of having him ask again first. That would have been more productive, isn't that what you told me?

I too am sorry OP for the common folklore and misinformation a poster generally gets, because of people having ideas and propagating those ideas without any substance or factual data to back it up. Then when you call them on it, they resort to personal attacks.

You said it yourself, if you can deal with the smell, noise, and don't need to pass emissions, than catless is the way to go. You can go catless for 200$. Oh, and boost creep doesn't exist, except sometimes, maybe. Some of these guys know better than professionals. Keyboard professionals, this forum is full of them.

Or you can pay a bit more and go catted with a high flow barely legal cat and then have nothing to worry about, no smell, no noise, no cops harassing you (in some states more than others) and you can pass emissions and youre legal in all 50 states.

So bottom line is, why pay 500$ when you can pay 200$, that is what it boils down to and your real question about "can you live with it for 3hrs drive." Id suggest you roll up your sleeves and pay in the beginning to not have to stress/hassle later.

Or just go flex fuel and don't touch the rest of the car, that'd really be the best advice. In fact, if youre handy there is a diy flex fuel kit thread to follow and make one yourself. I did just that, soon to be tested.
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Old 01-12-2019, 04:25 AM   #68
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lol....

I did a log just to see to test for boost creep. This is on E55, 16F intake temps, catted J, GS IC, etc. You can see that boost starts to rise instead of taper down after 6k. Wastegate probably could have been turned down, but then I'd lose power during the summer time.

https://datazap.me/u/ayau/tbe-iat-16...ata=9-22-25-28


This is the same hardware and tune but at 84F. Notice the boost curve actually tapers smoothly.

https://datazap.me/u/ayau/log-152695...0&data=9-25-28


Based on these 2 logs, it seems like there isn't a wastegate and intake temp compensation table as the wastegate curves are very similar. I'd imagine if you cold decrease wastegate significantly if the intake temps are below 40, then a catless setup could be made safer.

For me, I don't like the smell, the risk of boost creep, the noise, so a catted setup makes more sense for me. If the cat gets clogged, I'll just buy a new catted j pipe, assuming I even keep the car long enough.

Last edited by ayau; 01-12-2019 at 04:34 AM.
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Old 01-12-2019, 10:06 AM   #69
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For me, I don't like the smell, the risk of boost creep, the noise, so a catted setup makes more sense for me. If the cat gets clogged, I'll just buy a new catted j pipe, assuming I even keep the car long enough.
Exactly how I feel about that. I’ve never had to replace a cat yet ever. But I’ve also never had cars with more than 200k miles.

So your testing shows that even a catted setup with cold temps tends to have boost creep? I know for sure that there “should be” compensations for temps among many other things. This is interesting stuff. I know my car doesn’t reach the 21psi boost when it’s colder in the mornings, about 32-45F. It goes to 18.5-19psi usually, then later in day when temps are 60-70F it reaches the 20.5-21psi consistently.
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Old 01-12-2019, 10:46 AM   #70
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I posted the same question about catted vs catless and requirement for an EWG in the FB group.

The vendor I'm getting the parts from suggested catless but I spoke with the person that will be tuning the car and he said that he would want an EWG in order to tune it and try to reduce the potential issues with boost creep.

The issues I have with going catless are noise, smell,potential inspection issues, and boost creep.I'm on the border of the Mid Atlantic and Northeast and I have daytime highs in the 30's and evening lows in the 20's to mid 10's.

I decided to ultimately go catted based on these issues and feedback from the tuner.
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Old 01-12-2019, 12:31 PM   #71
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Exactly how I feel about that. Iíve never had to replace a cat yet ever. But Iíve also never had cars with more than 200k miles.

So your testing shows that even a catted setup with cold temps tends to have boost creep? I know for sure that there ďshould beĒ compensations for temps among many other things. This is interesting stuff. I know my car doesnít reach the 21psi boost when itís colder in the mornings, about 32-45F. It goes to 18.5-19psi usually, then later in day when temps are 60-70F it reaches the 20.5-21psi consistently.

Thereís boost creep in the sense that boost is rising past 6k rpm instead of tapering down. It can still be possibly fixed by turning down the wastegate, but that may affect summer temp performance. Real boost creep is when wastegate is turned to 0, but the boost is still climbing. This is a mechanical issue.

The higher the boost and rpm, the more fuel is demanded. This is risky because if you run out of fuel, then your motor will go boom. This is where the IBR BRZ intake manifold with dual injectors would help.

I should clarify that there are compensation tables for intake temps and wastegate. Thatís why boost numbers are lower in the winter and higher in the summer. However, the rate at which the wastegate increases as rpms increases is the same, regardless of the intake temps. You can see it in the 2 logs.

It seems like Cobb doesnít allow you to have a different wastegate curve depending on intake temps, or maybe the tuner never bothered to set a different curve. For example, at 60F, wastegate could be 2/1 (rise over run). In 20F, wastegate could be set to 1/1.
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Old 01-12-2019, 12:38 PM   #72
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It seems like Cobb doesn’t allow you to have a different wastegate curve depending on intake temps, or maybe the tuner never bothered to set a different curve. For example, at 60F, wastegate could be 2/1 (rise over run). In 20F, wastegate could be set to 1/1.
That's exactly what I was thinking could be done if AP tuning software allowed for it, taper it down differently for different input value for variables (temps, elevation, whatever).
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Old 01-12-2019, 12:38 PM   #73
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I posted the same question about catted vs catless and requirement for an EWG in the FB group.

The vendor I'm getting the parts from suggested catless but I spoke with the person that will be tuning the car and he said that he would want an EWG in order to tune it and try to reduce the potential issues with boost creep.

The issues I have with going catless are noise, smell,potential inspection issues, and boost creep.I'm on the border of the Mid Atlantic and Northeast and I have daytime highs in the 30's and evening lows in the 20's to mid 10's.

I decided to ultimately go catted based on these issues and feedback from the tuner.


Seems like EWG isnít really necessary at stage 2 flex fuel. Boost creep can be reduced with a catted j pipe and can be further reduced with a more restrictive turbo back. Running OEM catback would help the most. You may only lose a few HP but at least you wonít have to worry about boost creep as much during the winter.

Iíd be curious to see a winter log on a catless and a Tomei straight pipe.
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Old 01-12-2019, 12:59 PM   #74
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Seems like EWG isn’t really necessary at stage 2 flex fuel. Boost creep can be reduced with a catted j pipe and can be further reduced with a more restrictive turbo back. Running OEM catback would help the most. You may only lose a few HP but at least you won’t have to worry about boost creep as much during the winter.
Glad to hear that, I am in the process of adding a flex fuel tune soon. I am running a gs catted jpipe and oem catback. No plans on changing the catback, I like the stealth mode it allows for.

Are you running stock catback? I am sure you meant catback vs more restrictive turbo back.
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Old 01-12-2019, 01:20 PM   #75
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Glad to hear that, I am in the process of adding a flex fuel tune soon. I am running a gs catted jpipe and oem catback. No plans on changing the catback, I like the stealth mode it allows for.

Are you running stock catback? I am sure you meant catback vs more restrictive turbo back.
I was running on the STI OEM catback with GS Jpipe. The factory WRX catback doesn't have a resonator and will sound really bad. There are Youtube videos.

I'm now on a Corsa catback but only because I got a really good deal on a used one. It's probably not as restrictive as the OEM, but it's definitely more restrictive than running some muffler deletes. No measurable difference in virtual dyno numbers compared to the OEM catback setup. I may go back to the STI OEM catback if I get sick of the noise and want something quieter.
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