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Old 12-04-2018, 11:20 AM   #201
noobultimatum
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...or get a beefier rod.

A shop I deal with told me this will be coming out in the new year.
what exactly would be the difference between these from your mystery shop vs current rods out on the market? genuinely curious
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Old 12-04-2018, 08:37 PM   #202
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So don't quote me on the exacts but due to the split beam imbalance you get you in rod strength between the two banks, these are FEA balanced for the loading between banks (see the asymmetric window).
4340 H-beam made to handle big cylinder pressure. Wide beam section above the big end to avoid bending, thicker flanges, tapered web, overall pretty beefy.
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Old 12-04-2018, 09:37 PM   #203
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So don't quote me on the exacts but due to the split beam imbalance you get you in rod strength between the two banks, these are FEA balanced for the loading between banks (see the asymmetric window).
4340 H-beam made to handle big cylinder pressure. Wide beam section above the big end to avoid bending, thicker flanges, tapered web, overall pretty beefy.
Even if you can stop the rods breaking the LSPIís pressure spikes are still gonna trash something. I suppose a lifted head or spun bearings are easier to repair than a shredded crank case though
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Old 12-04-2018, 10:06 PM   #204
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Even if you can stop the rods breaking the LSPIís pressure spikes are still gonna trash something. I suppose a lifted head or spun bearings are easier to repair than a shredded crank case though
fix the weakest link, fix it. turn up the power, find the next weakest link, fix it. repeat.
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Old 12-04-2018, 11:33 PM   #205
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fix the weakest link, fix it. turn up the power, find the next weakest link, fix it. repeat.
Yeah but this is trying to build a (gas) engine to survive detonation.

Ideally youíd be able to keep the load down at low rpm where the engine canít take it, but clearly thatís not a reliable option with the factory boost control and engine management.
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Old 12-05-2018, 07:55 AM   #206
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Even if you can stop the rods breaking the LSPIís pressure spikes are still gonna trash something. I suppose a lifted head or spun bearings are easier to repair than a shredded crank case though
The problem is you donít hit LSPI that often unless youíre literally under like 1800 rpm
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Old 12-05-2018, 09:15 AM   #207
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The problem is you donít hit LSPI that often unless youíre literally under like 1800 rpm
Which is why we tell people not to floor it in low RPM. Avoid doing that and LSPI won't be a problem.

Folks complaining about LSPI in this engine don't seem to realize that unless their tune is screwed up or they've done something catastrophically stupid, if you avoid flooring it hard below 2500 RPM, you won't get a trashed engine from LSPI.

This is true in all turbocharged engines.
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Old 12-05-2018, 01:46 PM   #208
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Which is why we tell people not to floor it in low RPM. Avoid doing that and LSPI won't be a problem.

Folks complaining about LSPI in this engine don't seem to realize that unless their tune is screwed up or they've done something catastrophically stupid, if you avoid flooring it hard below 2500 RPM, you won't get a trashed engine from LSPI.

This is true in all turbocharged engines.
Most modern turbo engines have smart enough ecuís to nearly eliminate any issues from flooring it in a high gear at low rpm, subaru has about the dumbest ecuís in the industry.
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Old 12-05-2018, 01:49 PM   #209
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Most modern turbo engines have smart enough ecuís to nearly eliminate any issues from flooring it in a high gear at low rpm, subaru has about the dumbest ecuís in the industry.
So, just don't floor it in high gear.

Or, as Bob Newhart famously said, "Stop it!"
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Old 12-05-2018, 06:54 PM   #210
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Most modern turbo engines have smart enough ecuís to nearly eliminate any issues from flooring it in a high gear at low rpm, subaru has about the dumbest ecuís in the industry.
Yeah that brand new Honda Civic type Rís modern ecu did an awesome job of preventing it
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Old 12-05-2018, 10:37 PM   #211
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Yeah that brand new Honda Civic type Rís modern ecu did an awesome job of preventing it
the one tuned to the max? bone stock new subarus can toss a rod when you floor it at low rpm in a high gear, how many other modern bone stock cars will do the same?
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:14 AM   #212
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the one tuned to the max? bone stock new subarus can toss a rod when you floor it at low rpm in a high gear, how many other modern bone stock cars will do the same?
Pretty much any car with low capacity, direct injection, small quick spooling turbo, a transmission that doesnít automatically kick down and reckless drivers.
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:25 AM   #213
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For those of us who don't follow the Type R any chance we can get a link to whatever is being discussed?
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Old 12-06-2018, 08:44 AM   #214
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For those of us who don't follow the Type R any chance we can get a link to whatever is being discussed?
I'd be curios to find that specific thread as well. Found a 16 page discussion on civicx related to knocking that I'm just starting on.

Also going to do a google image search of the posted pic above.

Edit: no dice on the search, and I'm guessing largely because it's on someone's Facebook profile.
Also found talk of rod failures in the SI (1.5L) version of the engine and the CTR engine from low speed, elevated torque. As of April there had been a 'handful' of failures...so I'm sure it's into the dozens by now. Of course the new hot acronym of the year, LSPI, is being tossed around the discussions.
"The cause is exceeding the physical strength of the rod through torque production."

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 12-06-2018 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 12-06-2018, 09:32 AM   #215
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Pretty much any car with low capacity, direct injection, small quick spooling turbo, a transmission that doesn’t automatically kick down and reckless drivers.
Exactly.

Drive like a doofus and your car can break. I'm surprised that it's mainly the engineers here and not the mechanics saying "Duh! Don't do that then!!"

Then again, maybe that makes sense. We engineers know not to rely on failsafes to save the motor when the root cause is the moron between seat and steering wheel (also known as an I-D-ten-T error code).

You have a MT, folks! Don't expect the engine to refuse to honor a torque request before dropping gears till it's safe to do so. You bought an MT so you could drive this yourself and have more control that would otherwise be governed by nannies in an AT or CVT. Downshift appropriately before sending a big ass torque command through your go-fast pedal. This isn't hard. It's also called "Don't effing lug your engine!"

Again quote I the sage Newhart: JUST STOP IT

(for those that don't get it, google "Bob Newhart stop it")
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Old 12-06-2018, 04:50 PM   #216
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For those of us who don't follow the Type R any chance we can get a link to whatever is being discussed?
Not much info on the forums in reference to this particular case. Apparently Hondata base tune. Data logging when the rod failed. Warranty denied, quoted 19K for replacement. It was making around 350 whp.
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Old 12-06-2018, 05:27 PM   #217
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$19k for just the engine?
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Old 12-06-2018, 05:29 PM   #218
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$19k for just the engine?
Over but with installation. Everything included.
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Old 12-06-2018, 10:56 PM   #219
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Over but with installation. Everything included.
By everything, includes the entire engine bay?

$19k is like a really really pimped out built block. Not OEM block replacement.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:07 AM   #220
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$19k is over half the price of a new car HAHA

Pretty sure this crate engine is only $6500. That's a poop load of labor to tack on....
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:14 AM   #221
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$19k is over half the price of a new car HAHA

Pretty sure this crate engine is only $6500. That's a poop load of labor to tack on....
Not $12.5k worth, though.

Labor should only be a few thousand at most for installing a crated long block replacement.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:25 AM   #222
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Most modern turbo engines have smart enough ecu’s to nearly eliminate any issues from flooring it in a high gear at low rpm, subaru has about the dumbest ecu’s in the industry.
Preignition avoidance should be built into the tune. Like, lower the boost targets. It's not that hard. That's the biggest thing you can do. How many n/a direct injection engines blow up from LSPI ? Basically none.

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Exactly.

Drive like a doofus and your car can break. I'm surprised that it's mainly the engineers here and not the mechanics saying "Duh! Don't do that then!!"

Then again, maybe that makes sense. We engineers know not to rely on failsafes to save the motor when the root cause is the moron between seat and steering wheel (also known as an I-D-ten-T error code).

You have a MT, folks! Don't expect the engine to refuse to honor a torque request before dropping gears till it's safe to do so. You bought an MT so you could drive this yourself and have more control that would otherwise be governed by nannies in an AT or CVT. Downshift appropriately before sending a big ass torque command through your go-fast pedal. This isn't hard. It's also called "Don't effing lug your engine!"

Again quote I the sage Newhart: JUST STOP IT

(for those that don't get it, google "Bob Newhart stop it")
Subaru released an update to the stock tune so that the odds of damaging your engine with low speed preignition is much lower. If your aftermarket tune increases the risk vs stock, that's the tune's fault. For example, cranking up boost under about 2500rpm will increase the risk.

On my Ecoboost stage 1 (Cobb OTS) Mustang, I could literally floor it in 6th gear at 1200rpm all day long and I would never hear it preignite or have any signs of it. I did it all the time.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:28 AM   #223
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Not $12.5k worth, though.

Labor should only be a few thousand at most for installing a crated long block replacement.
I thought that was obvious from my response.

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Subaru released an update to the stock tune so that the odds of damaging your engine with low speed preignition is much lower. If your aftermarket tune increases the risk vs stock, that's the tune's fault. For example, cranking up boost under about 2500rpm will increase the risk.

On my Ecoboost stage 1 (Cobb OTS) Mustang, I could literally floor it in 6th gear at 1200rpm all day long and I would never hear it preignite or have any signs of it. I did it all the time.
Yup, again, smart tuning. In the diesel truck (semis) world, we had power de-rated by the gear so that it wouldn't destroy the driveline. Calibration engineers (and tuners) should be taking potential damage into consideration. More isn't always better unless everything can handle it.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:43 AM   #224
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I’m pretty sure a proper professional tune limits boost in low rpm before achieving max then tapering down with high rpms. I’ve confirmed that mine does in fact always achieve max boost at near same rpms, no matter how low I step on it. I haven’t tried this in fifth and sixth gear. But I am at about 10-11psi boost by the time I hit ~2300rpm.

I haven’t any data on how the car behaved when it was stock with Stock OEM tune.
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Old 12-07-2018, 12:55 PM   #225
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Not much info on the forums in reference to this particular case. Apparently Hondata base tune. Data logging when the rod failed. Warranty denied, quoted 19K for replacement. It was making around 350 whp.
WOW! 19k for an oem replacement and labor?

I would imagine going with an aftermarket builder would still come out cheaper than dropping more than HALF the cars purchase price on a replacement oem block.
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