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Old 06-09-2010, 05:02 PM   #1
Legacy777
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Default Oil Temp Sensor Location Discussion

Cliff Notes
What would be the best location to weld a bung to the oil pan for an oil temperature sensor, and is there any preferred temperature sensor/sender for use with a stand alone engine management? Most of the sensors I have found that will work with my Link are not the standard 1/8” NPT oil sensors.


Discussion
I'm in the process of rebuilding my ej22t motor, and want to add an oil temp sensor to tie back into my Link ECU. I've read through various threads about the different locations and the most common locations seem to be the top of the block in the oil gallery, sandwich adapter between the filter, and sensor in the drain plug. I'm curious if my conclusions/comments are similar to what others have come up with or if anyone else has some additional information or comments.


Sandwich Adapter
From what I have read, I am in agreement that the sandwich adapter is probably not the best option, due to it being right after the stock oil cooler.


Oil Galleries
Regarding tapping into the oil galleries on the top of the block, there seems to be mixed comments. The comments I've read note that taking a temperature measurement here will likely give you an overall higher oil temperature reading during certain driving conditions, like spirited driving. The resulting oil temperature information will not really give you an accurate overall oil temperature reading to determine whether you need to add a cooler or ease up on the spirited driving.

The other issue I've thought about for putting a temp sensor in the oil galleries is that depending on the sensor and how deep it sits in, it is going to add some additional restriction and pressure drop. I don't know if this is really an issue or not, but it's something I thought was worth noting.

As a result of the max temperature readings vs. overall temps and the added restrictions, the oil gallery location, while I think better than the sandwich still may not be the best ideal location.


Oil Pan Drain Plug
The oil pan drain plug is apparently the location for the stock Subaru oil temp sensor. I do think that the oil pan is probably the best location to get the overall oil temperature. However, I am not a fan of having the oil temp sensor in the drain plug. From the pictures I’ve seen of the stock oil temp sensor, it doesn’t appear to stick out too much further, but for my particular application with the Link ECU, I don’t think it would work because I think the stock oil temp sensor grounds through chassis versus a separate sensor ground. With that being the case, I would need to use an aftermarket sensor, which is going to stick out further, and have a separate plug that would need to be hooked up.

That leaves me with drilling and welding on a bung to the oil pan. Since the oil pan is not on the car, this isn’t too big a deal. I guess I would just need to determine what sensor to use, and where to locate the sensor in the pan.

Any comments or suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks
Josh
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Old 06-11-2010, 02:22 PM   #2
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I decided to put the oil temp sensor in the oil pan, and am using this GM/Delphi Temp Sensor. I'll post some pictures once I get the bung welded in and installed.
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Old 06-11-2010, 03:05 PM   #3
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I have my defi oil temp sensor mounted in the bottom of my (Moroso) oil pan, and my oil temps are impossibly low... the highest I have ever seen is 190f, and while cruising it's usually 150-170f. And I get "warm oil pressure" around 130f. I'm not convinced this is the best location...
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Old 06-11-2010, 03:23 PM   #4
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on the top of case, there are 2 locations.
or back of heads..one on either head..
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Old 06-11-2010, 03:50 PM   #5
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Ive got my oil temp under my Intercooler and my oil pressure on the location under the alternator area. put them in while doing a motor build.
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Old 06-12-2010, 01:58 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baay View Post
Ive got my oil temp under my Intercooler and my oil pressure on the location under the alternator area. put them in while doing a motor build.
Does removing the stock pressure sensor trigger the idiot light?
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Old 06-12-2010, 11:58 PM   #7
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Removing the stock oil pressure sensor will not trigger the light. The light is default off, on only when trouble is detected.



Also, what is the justification for the upper oil gallery position not giving valid temperature?
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Old 06-13-2010, 01:51 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Removing the stock oil pressure sensor will not trigger the light. The light is default off, on only when trouble is detected.
What he said.


Quote:
Also, what is the justification for the upper oil gallery position not giving valid temperature?
Why wouldnt it? interested to know also.

Depending on the probe type i guess it may or may-not be an issue, i know my defi probe is fine in there and i havent noticed what i would call overly hot temperatures, during Spirited driving im seeing between 110-115C. Regular driving its around 100C BUT i have just moved to where the average Air temp now is in the 40C range anyway.

Last edited by Baay; 06-13-2010 at 01:58 AM.
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Old 06-13-2010, 01:56 AM   #9
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OP said it in the first post. I have to say, I don't agree.
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Old 06-13-2010, 01:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legacy777 View Post
Are you using this sensor for a gauge? If so, what gauge?

Thanks.
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Old 06-13-2010, 04:05 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by deathfrombelow View Post
Are you using this sensor for a gauge? If so, what gauge?

Thanks.
No, I'm using it to tie into my Link ECU.
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Old 06-13-2010, 04:08 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baay View Post
Why wouldnt it? interested to know also.

Depending on the probe type i guess it may or may-not be an issue, i know my defi probe is fine in there and i havent noticed what i would call overly hot temperatures, during Spirited driving im seeing between 110-115C. Regular driving its around 100C BUT i have just moved to where the average Air temp now is in the 40C range anyway.

I think it depends on what temperature you are wanting to read. The temp in the oil galleries will probably be a more dynamic temperature. Nothing wrong with that. However if you are more interested in your overall oil supply temperature, the oil pan is a better spot.

Additionally, for me I have not been able to find a 1/8" NPT temp sensor that will work with my stand alone em. So that also limits where I can put the sensor.
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Old 06-13-2010, 05:13 PM   #13
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Frankly, I'm MUCH more interested in the temp of the oil in the galleries than in the sump. The front gallery position is basically measuring the outflow from the pump. This is relevant because the pump does some heating to the oil (especially once the bypass valve opens), the oil filter changes the temp more (either from the heat exchanger on the turbo cars or the headers on the NA cars), and then changes more as it runs through the block. If the oil I'm feeding the bearings is getting too hot, the oil coming out if them sure as hell is too hot.

Ideally, I'd love to be able to measure the temperature of the oil right as it's being fed to the bearings and right after passing through them.

What I really don't give a damn about is the temp of the oil in the sump after it's been averaged with oil that hasn't just come out of the engine and after it's been exposed to convective cooling from the high-velocity airstream past the sump.
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Old 06-13-2010, 11:12 PM   #14
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I think any location on the motor will give a better idea on how they oil is doing vs, as you said (williaty) after the oil has been averaged with the sump oil.

At least this is also how i decided not to run a sammich adapter.
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Old 06-14-2010, 10:31 AM   #15
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My take on it is the same as williaty's. When the engine in my car now was installed last year, the shop moved my oil temp sensor from the oil gallery on top of the block (the rear one, below the throttle body) to the oil drain plug. It's slower to respond (since it takes longer to heat up all the oil in the sump), not to mention it makes changing the oil a pain in the ass. I should have a new gallery plug soon so I can put the temp sensor back on the top of the block.

If I didn't have the sensor there, I think the sandwich adapter is the next logical place. Not sure why people are discounting that as a good location. That's the oil being sent to the engine, so it's a good baseline temperature to read. There will be some heating of the oil between the sandwich adapter and the actual bearings, as williaty said, but I still think the sandwich adapter is a more repeatable temperature and gives more pertinent data than the sump temperature.

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Old 09-30-2010, 05:07 PM   #16
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I am in agreement that the oil gallery on the top rear of the block is the best place, but i also fear that the sensor may restrict some of the oil flow to the last bearings, any comments on this??
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Old 09-30-2010, 06:07 PM   #17
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IMO the best place for taking the pressure reading is the OEM sensor location, since it's right after the pump. Any other location on the block is after oil passages going to different locations and will subsequently have slightly different pressure readings.

As far as temperatures, IMO, the sump is ideal as it is a measurement of oil going into the motor. Every component that touches the oil has a heating or cooling effect, but are designed to be fed a supply of oil within a proper temperature.

The only time it's practical to measure temperature anywhere else is when determining bearing failure via thermocouples before and after lubrication points. One the the in/out delta increases beyond the normal range you know it's time for a rebuild/exchange.
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Old 09-30-2010, 06:11 PM   #18
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1) I completely disagree with KB about oil pressure sender location. I want the sender as far away from the pump as possible because the end of the chain will show a reduction in pressure first if things are going wrong.

2) I completely disagree with KB on the oil temperature sender location. I don't care what the temperature of the oil in the sump is. I want to know what temperature of oil I'm feeding to my bearings. That means after the oil has been heated by the pump and cooled by the cooler (if there is one). In other words, where the stock pressure sender is.
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Old 09-30-2010, 06:30 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
1) I completely disagree with KB about oil pressure sender location. I want the sender as far away from the pump as possible because the end of the chain will show a reduction in pressure first if things are going wrong.

2) I completely disagree with KB on the oil temperature sender location. I don't care what the temperature of the oil in the sump is. I want to know what temperature of oil I'm feeding to my bearings. That means after the oil has been heated by the pump and cooled by the cooler (if there is one). In other words, where the stock pressure sender is.
Would you measure pressure at the rear galley plug on the block, or on the back of one head?
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Old 09-30-2010, 06:32 PM   #20
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I'd love to measure at the back of the head, but only if I could measure *both* heads. Since I can't afford that setup, I measure from the rear gallery plug since that's the best I can do.
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Old 09-30-2010, 09:25 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
1) I completely disagree with KB about oil pressure sender location. I want the sender as far away from the pump as possible because the end of the chain will show a reduction in pressure first if things are going wrong.

2) I completely disagree with KB on the oil temperature sender location. I don't care what the temperature of the oil in the sump is. I want to know what temperature of oil I'm feeding to my bearings. That means after the oil has been heated by the pump and cooled by the cooler (if there is one). In other words, where the stock pressure sender is.
I love a good debate as it usually breeds ideas and different/better ways of doing things. I think it's important for people to know that in the scope of pressure/temperature we're splitting hairs here. For the majority of people it's just good having a gauge vs. not. So on to the dabate

1) What scenarios do you see a pressure loss, where you wouldn't in the OEM location? If you're not building pressure it's going to be shown no matter where the sensor is. According to the factory, the pressure is checked at the entrance to the main galley to monitor pump operation. IMO, after that location, is less accurate (although very marginally), because it's after the passages start splitting into different directions.

2) Once the car is up to operating temperature what do you think the oil temp is increasing off the pump? On a stock pump I don't see the relief valve coming on enough to cause any significant increase in oil temperatures. Not enough to be concerned about and I'd be impressed if it were measurable on a typical oil temp gauge. On a true oil cooler setup (decent coil/airflow and thermostat) you're going to see temperatures the cooler is suposed to be providing, but you won't see if the oil in the pan is coming back higher than it was, because there's a problem somewhere.

IMO for a single sensor setup, on the average car guy's car, we're splitting hairs. If oil temps/pressure are THAT important to you (testing new components, monitoring wear, etc...), there's no substitute for a multi-sensor setup.
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Old 09-30-2010, 09:47 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
1) What scenarios do you see a pressure loss, where you wouldn't in the OEM location? If you're not building pressure it's going to be shown no matter where the sensor is. According to the factory, the pressure is checked at the entrance to the main galley to monitor pump operation. IMO, after that location, is less accurate (although very marginally), because it's after the passages start splitting into different directions.
In a perfect world, there wouldn't be any difference in system pressure regardless of where you sampled because the entirety of a fluid is supposed to be at the same pressure. However, since we're dealing with a viscous fluid system with restriction, it does vary point to point. This is why it's reasonable to say that certain things run out of oil "first". Their pathway was the most restricted so the flow through it resulted in lower pressure on the other side of the restriction. Going through several steps that I leave as an exercise to the reader, that means that things farthest away from the pump are going to see reduced flow first (assuming the pump didn't instantly go to 0 output, I'm presuming the pump is starting to leak or similar). If the main gallery isn't much of a restriction, there won't be much of a difference between the front and back. If there's one of Subaru's many flow-balancing restrictions in the gallery somewhere, the difference could be significant. Since we don't know, the simple choice is to put it in the place that will show a difference, if there is one.

Quote:
2) Once the car is up to operating temperature what do you think the oil temp is increasing off the pump? On a stock pump I don't see the relief valve coming on enough to cause any significant increase in oil temperatures.
I do not have any personal experience with the turbos, but on the NAs, the pump is in relief any time you're over about 2800RPM. That means that the pump is in relief when cruising at anything more than 70mph on the freeway. The heating done by the pump being in relief does appear to be significant. For testing near the relief activation, I've run the car up and down significant hills (foothills of the Appalachian mountains). Running uphill just under bypass, the oil temperature will not climb. Running downhill just above bypass, even with very small throttle openings, the temperature will climb ~25-30F before stabilizing. Deliberately running downhill in the "wrong" gear to keep the engine speed above 5kRPM at very low throttle opening will see the oil temp QUICKLY climb to the 260-270F range. On level ground, driving full throttle with high engine speed will result in oil temps for 280F (that's when I bailed. The temperature was still rising but I refuse to run the car hotter than that just for an experiment) in a matter of a minute or two. Running full throttle below 3kRPM (this is a bitch to do, btw) sees the oil temps only climb to 245F before stabilizing. Yes, I realize in that last test there's a difference in horsepower output, and yes I know that's significant.

In other words, in all tests I could devise, running with the pump in full bypass resulted in a large temperature increase over running the pump with the bypass closed. On the NAs, at least, normal operation keeps the pump in bypass for extended periods of time. So, yes, it matters.

Since the front oil gallery location is the closest I can come to directly sampling the temperature of the oil going into the bearings, it's what I use.

Sorry if this was a bit poorly worded. My fiancee is currently drinking wine and disassembling a laptop. I'm trying to ride herd on that.

Last edited by williaty; 09-30-2010 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:27 PM   #23
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I see what you're saying regarding pressure drop across the system, but that just means your "normal" pressure is lower the further from the pump you are, and not accurately showing you the pumps output pressure. Since the galleys and main passages aren't restricted (restrictors at main bearings and left and right head, but not ACVS), the main losses you'll see (front to back) are from passages off the main galley before you get to the rear port.

I see tempurate fluctuations like that as well, but you're making a HUGE assumption that those are caused by solely the pump, when there are sooooo many other influeces that impact oil temperature (load, accel, decel, coolant temp, blowby, etc., etc...) I undestand what you're saying about the bypass opening early and staying open, mostly, but the flow through the bypass goes down as the flow demand increases with RPM/Load.

Now if you were monitoring temps from several locations (specifically before and after the pump) you'd have a much better argument
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:36 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
I see tempurate fluctuations like that as well, but you're making a HUGE assumption that those are caused by solely the pump, when there are sooooo many other influeces that impact oil temperature (load, accel, decel, coolant temp, blowby, etc., etc...) I undestand what you're saying about the bypass opening early and staying open, mostly, but the flow through the bypass goes down as the flow demand increases with RPM/Load.
First of all, pump output is invariant with engine load. Bringing engine load into the discussion of flow through the bypass is a red herring.

Second, I'm controlling the variables better than you think. I was able to create several tests where the major varying factor was solely engine RPM. Throttle position was kept invariant by either running up/down hill so the throttle could be held in the same position or by just running it at WOT. Coolant temp is also a non-issue in this because the coolant temp in this car, when moving is always between 180 and 185*F. It only rises above that point when the car stops moving or when the tailwind is roughly equal to the forward speed (no effective flow through the radiator). The cooling system on this car is MASSIVELY over-engineered.
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Old 10-01-2010, 12:19 AM   #25
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I respectfully disagree with what you're saying on pump output. I don't beleive it's linear with RPM as the efficiency of the pump (like any pump) changes as RPM increase.

Even if the throttle is kept at the exact same position the load is different going uphill vs. downhill.

I see coolant temps from 183-198 (datalogged) and I agree the cooling system has plenty of capacity, but it fluctuates based on load, speed, etc... and it DOES have some influence on oil temperature, but not a lot. Someone on here or IWSTI did a nice write up on this with data backing up his observations.

I'm not saying your observations are wrong or incorrect. I just feel without hard data you're hypothesis is a guess, and not quite enough for me to agree with.
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