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Old 01-18-2006, 09:16 AM   #51
AUTOwrXER
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Forwarding this on behalf of Sam Strano of Stranoparts:

"Let me begin by saying that I CAN NOT reply to, or start any threads on this site. I have contacted the webmaster multiple times, with no answer. I can login, but can't reply to any posts. I have been reading this and the original thread, keeping tabs. Because of this, I cannot help you in anyway unless you contact me directly. The internet is not the end-all answer and it not a replacement for a good old conversation.

I am the retailer for this bar. I did not design the bar, I am the outlet for selling it. I commissioned it, and basically arranged for it to happen to help Joel as well as have a useful product to market. It was a help for both of us. The bar was built and test fitted on Joel's '05 STi, and he has stated no issues with rubbing on this bolt. Further since this thread has begun, I've had cause to speak with two others who have the bar on their STi's. Andy Hohl, and Justin Rothermel. Neither of them have reported any issues. Andy told me yesterday there was no rubbing and he has his car apart for some other work. Justin hasn't looked lately, but hadn't noticed a thing, and I've personally been under his car and looked around very carefully because it was the first opprotunity for me to check out a bar on a car that closely.

The "test mule" and the other two I've asked about have had no issues. This tells me that it's simply not a widespread problem, and easily remedied. Along that line, it was rightly pointed out to me that with the slots in the mouting brackets that the bar can be moved around a bit, which likely would solve the issue. And would explain why this isn't a problem on some cars and not on others. The tolerances are not that great, and the bars are built in a jig.

The biggest complaint I've hear is because of noise. Some folks are insisting on using wierd things for lubes... I recommend synthetic wheel bearing grease, even anti-seize compound. But some noise can still come through, the bar is quite stiff and puts a lot of load into the body mounts. Also a few have had a clunking noise. The bar is isolated in bushings to the body, and uses non-solid endlinks. If all it tight the will not clunk. But I've found some folks don't like to use Loctite on bolts, and the adapter bracket sometimes come loose, again with the stiff bar you get a lot of force. Make sure the brackets are tight, and use some Loctite...

While I'm getting this out in the public, allow me to hit some other points... Someone in one of the threads had mentioned the weight of my bar with endlinks was 11.5 pounds which is what the Whiteline bar is speced at. There are two points. 1. Comparing my bar with links to Whiteline's without is not an equal comparison. 2. A Hollow 32 is stiffer than a solid 27 period, adjustable or otherwise. Moving the hole does not shorten the arms enough to make the equivilent of a 2mm change in bar size. It's popular for folks to say it's 27, but acts like 29 if you stiffen it. A 29mm bar is about 25% stiffer than a 27. To do this you'd need to shorten the lever arms around 12% on each side. What's the arm length? 8"???? I don't know offhand, but lets use that for arguments sake.... are you moving the hole 1" on each side of the bar? Does anyone has pics of this bar, because I'd like to see them. We've used some of the smaller Whiteline bars and while they had more than one hole, neither actually shortened the lever arm, which made the "adjustment" holes useless. "

----------------------------------------------------------

Thanks,
Sam
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Old 01-18-2006, 09:19 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z3coupe
For the record though, my 05 STi is an early model - bought in late 04.
So is mine. I bought the first one delivered to the dealer. That would point more toward production variances on both the Subaru and the bar/brackets than a running change to the 2005 model.

-Joel
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Old 01-18-2006, 09:33 AM   #53
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Quote:
While I'm getting this out in the public, allow me to hit some other points... Someone in one of the threads had mentioned the weight of my bar with endlinks was 11.5 pounds which is what the Whiteline bar is speced at. There are two points. 1. Comparing my bar with links to Whiteline's without is not an equal comparison. 2. A Hollow 32 is stiffer than a solid 27 period, adjustable or otherwise. Moving the hole does not shorten the arms enough to make the equivilent of a 2mm change in bar size. It's popular for folks to say it's 27, but acts like 29 if you stiffen it. A 29mm bar is about 25% stiffer than a 27. To do this you'd need to shorten the lever arms around 12% on each side. What's the arm length? 8"???? I don't know offhand, but lets use that for arguments sake.... are you moving the hole 1" on each side of the bar? Does anyone has pics of this bar, because I'd like to see them. We've used some of the smaller Whiteline bars and while they had more than one hole, neither actually shortened the lever arm, which made the "adjustment" holes useless. "
here is a pic of the whiteline x3006 (27-29*adjustable) installed on my car.

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Old 01-18-2006, 11:33 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam
While I'm getting this out in the public, allow me to hit some other points... Someone in one of the threads had mentioned the weight of my bar with endlinks was 11.5 pounds which is what the Whiteline bar is speced at. There are two points. 1. Comparing my bar with links to Whiteline's without is not an equal comparison. 2. A Hollow 32 is stiffer than a solid 27 period, adjustable or otherwise. Moving the hole does not shorten the arms enough to make the equivilent of a 2mm change in bar size. It's popular for folks to say it's 27, but acts like 29 if you stiffen it. A 29mm bar is about 25% stiffer than a 27. To do this you'd need to shorten the lever arms around 12% on each side. What's the arm length? 8"???? I don't know offhand, but lets use that for arguments sake.... are you moving the hole 1" on each side of the bar? Does anyone has pics of this bar, because I'd like to see them. We've used some of the smaller Whiteline bars and while they had more than one hole, neither actually shortened the lever arm, which made the "adjustment" holes useless. "

----------------------------------------------------------

Thanks,
Sam
Ummmm....disputing claims without actually knowing the basic facts?

1 - False. A comparison can be made. The Whiteline does not need aftermarket end links. And for those that run popular stock fitment aftermarket end links, those don't weigh much more than stock either. The 32mm Strano bar does require these end links you have designed.

2a - You, Joel, or Addco are the only ones that can say that, because the public doesn't know the diameter of the "hollow" part to run the calcs. Without knowing the center hollow, or the effective lever arm, I can only guess. But, that's just a guess, not fact.

2b - If you haven't seen or measured the Whiteline X3006 bar, how can you make such comments about its stiffness vs. the 32mm Addco bar? The change in the hole position and effective short lever arm does have a rather good effect on the bar's overall stiffness. It's basic math. I calculate about a 44% increase in stiffness between the Whiteline's soft and stiff hole positions. Yes, a 1" lever arm change on a 5-6" lever arm can produce the stiffness changes mentioned.

Wow, just wow. Smoke and magic it appears...

Joel: i'm sorry if my earlier comment about the cookie came off wrong. i meant the kind of cookie that Hoppe would give someone. Also, thanks for coming up with and helping to prove the theory of the big front bar. Without your effort, this concept wouldn't have had as much basis.

Chris H.

Last edited by Draken; 01-18-2006 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 01-18-2006, 11:44 AM   #55
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Ok, just one quick comment with no disrespect meant.

Its a 32mm bar people. Its made to fit and stuffed into a spot that was reserved for a stock 19mm bar. Its a MOTORSPORTS part, not a daily driver part (although it *can* be used that way). Expect some noise, expect some clunking, expect some squeaking.

-Tom
(arsehole)
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Old 01-18-2006, 11:58 AM   #56
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I had the same issue with the power steering bolt in my car when I installed the bar in my wife's car. Here is a picture from my install:

I tried using clamps to move the mounts to get the bar away from the bolt, but couldn't find a way to do so. I followed Rankink's advice and ground a small portion of the top of the bolt off, and the problem is now non-existant.

I don't mind a bit of extra noise, but before this was done the car would make constant noise when on the highway. (had it this way for a couple of weeks)

We upgraded from the X3006 bar, and there is a significant difference in the 2 bars. I have a comparison picture in my wife's gallery:
http://mere.darg.net/sti-fsb

--
Brian
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Old 01-18-2006, 12:58 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draken
Ummmm....disputing claims without actually knowing the basic facts?

1 - False. A comparison can be made. The Whiteline does not need aftermarket end links. And for those that run popular stock fitment aftermarket end links, those don't weigh much more than stock either. The 32mm Strano bar does require these end links you have designed.

2a - You, Joel, or Addco are the only ones that can say that, because the public doesn't know the diameter of the "hollow" part to run the calcs. Without knowing the center hollow, or the effective lever arm, I can only guess. But, that's just a guess, not fact.

2b - If you haven't seen or measured the Whiteline X3006 bar, how can you make such comments about its stiffness vs. the 32mm Addco bar? The change in the hole position and effective short lever arm does have a rather good effect on the bar's overall stiffness. It's basic math. I calculate about a 44% increase in stiffness between the Whiteline's soft and stiff hole positions. Yes, a 1" lever arm change on a 5-6" lever arm can produce the stiffness changes mentioned.

Wow, just wow. Smoke and magic it appears...

Chris H.
1) He's talking about a weight comparison, so whether or not the Whiteline bar needs aftermarket endlinks or not is irrelevent. If you weigh the Strano bar with the endlinks, then you need to weigh the Whiteline bar with endlinks also in order to make an apples to apples weight comparison.

2a) Joel stated, in post #11 of the original thread, that the wall thickness of the Strano bar was 3/16", so if someone that has the Strano bar can take a tape measure to it, and tell us what the lever arm measures, you should be able to run the calcs yourself. Sam has stated that it would be equivelent to a 29.6mm iirc.

2b) Whiteline states that, in the stiffest mounting position, their 27mm bar is equivelent to a 29mm bar. Taking that at face value, Sam's is still going to be stiffer if his is equivelent to a 29.6mm bar, isn't it?

Besides, he follows up by saying - "Does anyone has pics of this bar, because I'd like to see them. We've used some of the smaller Whiteline bars and while they had more than one hole, neither actually shortened the lever arm, which made the "adjustment" holes useless."

It seems that he may be basing his suppositions on some previous experience, but is open to enlightenment, so I really don't get the attitude with which you responded. It's made worse by the fact that Sam can't respond to you himself.

I don't see any "smoke and mirrors". No matter how you cut it, the Strano bar is at least as stiff as the Whiteline, and it's lighter as well.

If you are happy with your Whitline bar, fine. It doesn't look to me like anyone is going to think ill of you for your opinion.
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Old 01-18-2006, 01:06 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhoppe
Ok, just one quick comment with no disrespect meant.

Its a 32mm bar people. Its made to fit and stuffed into a spot that was reserved for a stock 19mm bar. Its a MOTORSPORTS part, not a daily driver part (although it *can* be used that way). Expect some noise, expect some clunking, expect some squeaking.

-Tom
(arsehole)
Mine doesn't squeak. In fact, my Strano bar squeaks LESS than the Whiteline bar I had due to the solid endlinks. I was using the stockers, but the Strano bar endlink design is what I like TONS better.

I have been thinking about polyeurathane bushings though... might be too much sheer stress on that bolt though.

- dow
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Old 01-18-2006, 01:09 PM   #59
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I agree - mine is as silent as the stock bar.
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Old 01-18-2006, 01:26 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VpointVick
1) He's talking about a weight comparison, so whether or not the Whiteline bar needs aftermarket endlinks or not is irrelevent. If you weigh the Strano bar with the endlinks, then you need to weigh the Whiteline bar with endlinks also in order to make an apples to apples weight comparison.

2a) Joel stated, in post #11 of the original thread, that the wall thickness of the Strano bar was 3/16", so if someone that has the Strano bar can take a tape measure to it, and tell us what the lever arm measures, you should be able to run the calcs yourself. Sam has stated that it would be equivelent to a 29.6mm iirc.

2b) Whiteline states that, in the stiffest mounting position, their 27mm bar is equivelent to a 29mm bar. Taking that at face value, Sam's is still going to be stiffer if his is equivelent to a 29.6mm bar, isn't it?

Besides, he follows up by saying - "Does anyone has pics of this bar, because I'd like to see them. We've used some of the smaller Whiteline bars and while they had more than one hole, neither actually shortened the lever arm, which made the "adjustment" holes useless."

It seems that he may be basing his suppositions on some previous experience, but is open to enlightenment, so I really don't get the attitude with which you responded. It's made worse by the fact that Sam can't respond to you himself.

I don't see any "smoke and mirrors". No matter how you cut it, the Strano bar is at least as stiff as the Whiteline, and it's lighter as well.

If you are happy with your Whitline bar, fine. It doesn't look to me like anyone is going to think ill of you for your opinion.
1 - I agree completely. The weight of the bar and endlinks for both bars is what should be compared. Apples vs. apples. Yes, the bar itself is lighter, however heavier end links are used. Really, we're talking a pound here anyways. So i'll stop blabbing

2a - Thank you, i completely missed the statement of 3/16" wall thickness.

2b - I'm actually not assuming anything. I will be measuring the torsion length and the lever arm of the whiteline when i get home, and runs those calcs. If you wanted to do the same of your Strano bar, then we could simply run the numbers.

Looking at the pics provided in the link by BrianGT, it appears the center torsion length of the bar is roughly 5" longer (2-3" per side guestimate) on the Strano, and lever arm is about 1" less. So based off my quick calcs, I'm thinking the Strano bar is 5-10% stiffer.

And believe me, I think the Strano bar is awesome. I've considered one myself as an upgrade over the Whiteline. But i want to get a few events in on street tires and concrete before i decide. Also, I genuily was/am curious how much stiffer the Strano bar really is.

I just don't want to use assumptions or guesses to base my change off of.

Thank you for your clarification to my post.

Chris H.

Last edited by Draken; 01-18-2006 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 01-18-2006, 02:23 PM   #61
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Going completely off topic here, but something I've always wondered about...

Does anyone know how the cockpit adjustable sway bars on purpose-built race cars work?
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Old 01-18-2006, 02:32 PM   #62
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Like this

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...action=product



This blade arm turns. When its on the flat side, its easier to bend so therefore the bar is softer. When its on the thin side, its much harder to bend so its stiffar.

-Tom
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Old 01-18-2006, 02:47 PM   #63
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Joel: Most of what I've seen involves the end link sliding on the lever arm portion of the bar. At least that's what I've seen on some little Formula cars.

Sample:


I've seen this style end link with a standard control cable connected to it. Also, I've seen this style end link with a nice tightening knob that locked it in place. Would make for simple "pop under the car" adjustments.

Hoppe's link is cool. But he's still a *****.

Chris H.

Last edited by Draken; 01-18-2006 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 01-18-2006, 03:05 PM   #64
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Also, all my notes are at my desk at home, but the bar is actually 1 and 1/4" tube with 3/16" wall thickness. Therefore O.D. = 31.75mm and I.D. = 22.225mm.
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Old 01-18-2006, 03:08 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhoppe
Like this

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...action=product



This blade arm turns. When its on the flat side, its easier to bend so therefore the bar is softer. When its on the thin side, its much harder to bend so its stiffar.

-Tom
That's pretty hawt. I'd like an adjustable rear bar that a co-driver could yank on corner entry and then set soft at corner exit. I guess that's what the WRC teams were trying to do with their active bars...
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Old 01-18-2006, 04:40 PM   #66
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Quote:
I'd like an adjustable rear bar that a co-driver could yank on corner entry and then set soft at corner exit. I guess that's what the WRC teams were trying to do with their active bars...
except they had the computer do it
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Old 01-18-2006, 05:06 PM   #67
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I have an '04 STi w/Strano fsb with no rubbing issues and haven't looked under an '05 yet. If I understand the issue correctly, on some '05-'06 STi's there is a rubbing issue with a power steering bolt due to either bolt head length/production year changes/tolerances. Looking under my car, if I was still running in SCCA A-Stock and had this issue I would shim out the swaybar body mount bracket 1/16"-1/8" as suggested by WRX_orlando and PossumK as swaybar mounting is free in Stock class. I would probably use a piece of sheetmetal under the entire bushing/bushing mounting bracket instead of washers/shims, just my preference. Is there room between the bar and brace on the '05-'06's to do this? There is on an '04.


Andy Hohl
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Old 01-18-2006, 05:14 PM   #68
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I had to go by home during a site visit, so i popped under my STi and measured the Whiteline bar. Using the anti-roll bar formula as published in Fred Puhn's book "How to make your car handle" i came up with the following calcs.

Formula:

K (lbs/in) = 500,000 x (D^4 - d^4) / (0.4244 x A^2 x B) + (0.2264 x C^3)

D = outer bar diameter
d = inner bar diameter
A = length of bar end, lever arm
B = length of center section
C = length of bar end (if 90-degree bend, C = A)


Whiteline Bar, soft setting: K = ~ 1,307 lbs/in.
D = 1.063"
d = na
A = 5.5"
B = 32"
C = 7"

Whiteline Bar, stiff setting: K = ~ 1,731 lbs/in. (34% stiffer than soft setting)
D = 1.063"
d = na
A = 4.75"
B = 32"
C = 6.5"

Based on the photos supplied above, it looks like the major changes in the Strano bar include a longer center section (est. 4") and a longer lever arm (estimate 1" longer than Whiteline stiff setting.) Also, the Strano bar uses a 90-degree bend.

Estimated Strano Bar: K = ~ 1,655 lbs/in.
D = 1.250"
d = 0.875"
A = 5.75" (based on photos above, lever arm is roughly 1" longer)
B = 36" (based on photos above, center section is roughly 2" longer per side)
C = 6.25"

If anyone has specific measurements of the Strano bar for items A and B, that would be great.

Chris H.

Last edited by Draken; 01-19-2006 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 01-18-2006, 05:34 PM   #69
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In many cases, using different mounting holes to change the bar's lever arm results in a change in angle of the endlinks.

Although I'm not 100% sure, I do think this will change the calculation since an endlink that is not vertical will result in some of the force being tranmitted as a horizontal load on the hub and/or bar mounts and not all the sway bar's resistance is translated into vertical force.

If you know the endlink's angle, simple trig can be used to resolve the force into vertical and horizontal, but I'm not sure if that simple method is good enough for a moving system.
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Old 01-18-2006, 05:49 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dowroa
Mine doesn't squeak. In fact, my Strano bar squeaks LESS than the Whiteline bar I had due to the solid endlinks. I was using the stockers, but the Strano bar endlink design is what I like TONS better.

I have been thinking about polyeurathane bushings though... might be too much sheer stress on that bolt though.

- dow
However, he has the exact same bar I had (we swapped bars) on an 05 STi (same as mine). Whereas he has no squeaks, mine squeaked constantly. I tried several different endlink lubes and the other fixes suggested here.

This should speak to the wide variations even within the same year.

Mine did not, however, impact the aforementioned bolt.
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Old 01-18-2006, 06:37 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Farmer
However, he has the exact same bar I had (we swapped bars) on an 05 STi (same as mine). Whereas he has no squeaks, mine squeaked constantly. I tried several different endlink lubes and the other fixes suggested here.

This should speak to the wide variations even within the same year.

Mine did not, however, impact the aforementioned bolt.
And, just for verification, it is clear of my bolt as well.

- dow
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Old 01-18-2006, 06:59 PM   #72
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I talked to Sam yesterday, he's looking into why people would be having an issue. I haven't been under the car but I don't have any squeaking or squacking.

J
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Old 01-18-2006, 07:49 PM   #73
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Dear Sam (STRANO):

When you registered did you receive an immediate email from NASIOC? They send out a validation link to the email you specify, and you have to click it for registration to commence. Either your email account blocked this mail, or the address was entered incorrectly. I suggest signing up for gmail or hotmail, and then trying to reregister with a new name - like NASIOC-tech-SUXORS-ma-BALLZORS.

If this isn't the problem then maybe your browser is blocking cookies or something. Use Mozilla instead; its nicer anyway.

ps. I like my bar just fine!
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Old 01-18-2006, 10:41 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhoppe
Ok, just one quick comment with no disrespect meant.

Its a 32mm bar people. Its made to fit and stuffed into a spot that was reserved for a stock 19mm bar. Its a MOTORSPORTS part, not a daily driver part (although it *can* be used that way). Expect some noise, expect some clunking, expect some squeaking.

-Tom
(arsehole)
Agreed!
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Old 01-19-2006, 04:22 AM   #75
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FWIW, my Strano bar does make squish type of noises, mostly when going over speed bumps at low speeds. But for the record, I am not complaining about that. As was mentioned, it is a motorsports part. I can live with the noises (unlike the holy hell my old Zeals were making). My whole reason for this post was the worry that the bolt rubbing on the bar could later become a safety issue, not complaining about cosmetic or bothersome noises. And in order for this to not escalate into a safety issue for Sam or Addco, wanted this brought to their attention - but FIRST I wanted to see how many others were having the same problem. As I stated, if it were just a local problem with our install, then fine. But if there were more with this problem (and who would know unless you KNEW to look for it), then it would be improtant enough for them to look into what is happening. I HOPE some can understand that.
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