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02-21-2001, 07:17 PM | #1 |
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WRX vs. A4 1.8TQ Chipped: pros and cons
I am currently driving a 98 A4 1.8TQ with GIAC chip. WRX is on order, maybe a couple weeks away. Getting a little rattled by talk of turbo lag, lower quality, WRX vs. Audi comparisons, etc., but I'm still very excited about the WRX. It looks like an amazing package for the price. Here's how I am thinking about the two, after a WRX ride (not test drive.) Big decision coming in a couple weeks.
Worries: 1. Acceleration: I am prepared to be a bit underwhelmed by the WRX. Sure, it ought to beat my A4 0-60, but I suspect that in gear times, e.g., 60-80 mph in 3rd or 4th, will be slower. My chipped A4 is seriously quick in these highway interval times, not far behind an S4. Bottom line: I'm wondering whether WRX will feel as strong in 4th heading west up the Front Range on I-70. 2. Turbo lag: the stock 1.8T motor is remarkable in its flat torque curve and lack of lag. Chipped, there is apparent lag, but really it is a two-phase response: the stock, low-pressure/no-lag/moderate torque, followed a second later by a great full-boost surge. 3. A4 practical advantages: No heated seats (what was Subaru thinking?) and no fold down rear seat. Excited about WRX: 1. Refinement: having moved from an E30 M3 to the A4, I won't mind a little more character-- in steering feel, engine note, handling. 2. Space: Surprisingly, the back seat room is quite a bit better because the front seatbacks are concave and soft, not convex and hard like my A4. Probably equivalent rear cabin space, but knee room allows me to set the WRX drivers seat comfortably and sit comfortable behind, while the A4 requires a big compromise. Also, looking forward to MANUAL HVAC controls-- never have liked the auto climate control of the A4, which requires too much fiddling and overrides. And looking forward to in-dash CD instead of 6 CD changer. 2. Handling: I am confident that the WRX will have a bit more steering feel, more controllable oversteer, yet fairly comfortable ride, judging from experience with the 2.5RS. When I have test driven the 2.5 RS, I immediately felt comfortable drifting it through on ramps, something I normally wouldn't do with an unfamiliar car. BTW, the vaunted S4 (3700 lbs.!) feels heavy compared to my A4 sport package. 3. Styling: I have grown to like the WRX looks. It's not a beauty, but it is purposeful and functional. The A4 is a pretty car, but is now getting a bit familiar, and a little too feminine. The WRX captures some of the ur-Quattro (flares) with a dash of Porsche (fenders/lights). Big lights and integrated big fog lights make total sense for its intended purpose. 4. Rally connection: I look forward to following the progress of the WRX in WRC rallies. Disappointing so far, but note that Burns set many fastest times after kissing a snowbank. the car is competitive. 5. Upgrades: both the A4 and the M3 had some nice affordable upgrade options, and the WRX will have even more. Superg
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02-21-2001, 07:38 PM | #2 |
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I seriously doubt a chip upgrade alone will make a 1.8T pull over 227HP the WRX has. This with the fact the Audi weighs more and the WRX should beat it in any gear. This will be even more pronounced in a 60-80 run as you can eliminate the effect of turbo lag by picking a gear to keep RPMs up. If you were talking about a light weight modified Golf 1.8T and a running start acceleration like 30-50 where traction is no concern, then you might have a race.
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02-21-2001, 09:04 PM | #3 |
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Also how long do you think the turbo will last on the chipped VW 1.8T motors? At least one chip leaves the turbo glowing for minutes after shutdown.
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02-21-2001, 09:15 PM | #4 |
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On my A4 the turbo glows bright red after my engine shutdown. However the engine coolant is still flowing through the turbo after the engine is shutdown for a couple of minutes cooling the turbo. I have 30K miles with no turbo trouble and there are others with 100K or more "chipped" miles with no turbo problems.
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02-21-2001, 09:18 PM | #5 |
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The 1.8T turbo glows even without a chip, and I'm sure the WRX's will too.
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02-21-2001, 09:22 PM | #6 |
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Let's not forget one big component to take-off ability here kiddies, and that's torque.
A chipped 1.8t is putting down usually 20 more ft/lps. of Torque than the WRX. So, that takeoff comparison may not be so uneven. We all know Torque is the get up, and HP is the go. The WRX should have plenty of go, it's the get up I'm thinking of. -Dog |
02-21-2001, 10:23 PM | #7 |
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Torque is definatly what leaves you with that kid in a candy store smile after driving a car...my friend has a '96 LT4 Corvette..you should have seen by face after driving it, but its american and it's not for me.
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02-21-2001, 10:28 PM | #8 |
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theres no way a chipped 1.8t chipped has the same get up and go of a stock wrx. I have one 2001 chipped. Its slow of the start and all the way up. I really dont think we can compare these two cars.Honestly the 1.8t feels like it runs atleat high 16s 1/4miles. Its slow. WRX stock low 14. Thats like throwing a supercharger on a civic and saying a stock civic feels the same.
maybe i dont understand what you are saying. FIll me in, dont want to be rude its just i bought a wrx and if its going to be the same as my 1.8t chipped. Then i am going to be mad |
02-21-2001, 10:28 PM | #9 |
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A chipped 1.8t A-4 quattro does what, 14.7 or 14.9 in the quarter, tops? Don't get me wrong, I love Audi/VW, but different cars for different purposes. A stock WRX can do high 14s easy. Mod it and its in S4 territory. Depends on what you want, a lot of speed with minimal creature comforts or a pretty quick car with more luxury.
Glen |
02-22-2001, 07:03 AM | #10 |
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Leszek: Your turbo does not have anything flowing through it after you turn the car off...definately not engine coolant. While the car is running, oil is the primary turbo cooler. The newer VWs(1.8T Bug) do have an after-run oil pump to keep oil circulating through the turbo, but I'm positive the pre-'01 A4s don't...not sure about '01 or '01.5.
Yes, any turbo will glow red if it's spinning fast enough. My APR'd A4 would glow most of the time...but I'd never turn it off while I could still see the turbo. You shouldn't either. Invest in a turbo timer or sit in the car for a minute before shutting down. The beauty of the chipped Audi is flooring it at highway speeds in 5th gear. Once that heavy car is moving, it has no trouble at all whipping some tail on the highway...those 245ft/lbs are the reason why. I'm looking for the same from the Rex...with no downshifting either. I've outgrown the stoplight drags and peeling out around town. I want it to be able to whip some ass on the highway at 70+. I think a boost rise to around 16psi will be a good start, but I'm skeptical about these piggyback computers used on the Japanese cars. I am hip to the programs that are flashed/soldiered into the Audi/VW ECUs which control the wastegate, fuel flow, rev limiter, timing, boost, etc.. I'm not looking for this-is-better-than-that opinions...just an idea of how the WRX will do on the interstate. But I guess we'll have to wait because almost nobody has driven the thing yet. And any reviews right now get ripped apart by people citing speculation and conjecture. I can't wait to get my hands on this car! -Cy |
02-22-2001, 07:06 AM | #11 |
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I have a friend who has a 1.8T Passat which is chipped. He runs a pretty consistent 14.9@92 mph all stock save for the chip. The Passat is HEAVY though...pretty close to my 2000 Maxima. Many guys with lighter weight Golfs and Jettas with the 1.8T run mid 14's. I think a chipped 1.8T in one of these bodies (Golf/Jetta) will outrun a stock WRX from a roll. In a standing start, it should be close due to the AWD hole shot advantage of the WRX.
But, chip a WRX and now were talking! |
02-22-2001, 01:11 PM | #12 |
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Nah, My turbo never did. Even running 15psi all the time. For abot a week every time I stopped I had to pop the hood to make sure the oil leaking on the crossover didn't catch on fire. Turbo looked just like it allways does.
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02-22-2001, 01:23 PM | #13 |
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Cy,
My engine does flow the cooland after it's shutdown and yours does too. Shutdown the engine after you drive your car hard, open up the hood and look at the cooland reservoir. You will see the cooland still flowing for a while. Trust me, I've talk to audi techs about this. All 1.8T A4s flow the coolant after you drive hard and the engine is shutdown and you can see it for yourself. (my car is a MY '99) |
02-22-2001, 02:00 PM | #14 |
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Leszek...
Alright, you got me on one count. The turbo DOES have engine coolant flowing through its outer jacket. But it does NOT flow after the engine is shut down. This must be runoff that you're seeing of what is already in the lines. http://www.audiworld.com/forum/m/a4/msgs/451873.phtml -Cy |
02-22-2001, 02:51 PM | #15 |
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The things that everyone has to keep in mind is that you are comparing a MODIFIED car to STOCK car. How is the A4 going to compare stock the WRX? How much did it cost for the A4 chip? Whats going to happen when you put X amount of dollars (x=A4 chip) into the WRX. I don't care which car is fast, I am going from a F/S Pu, anything I drive is going to be quicker and faster, but lets compare apple to apples. Just my .02
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02-22-2001, 05:39 PM | #16 |
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I don't know about the 1.8T engine but the 2.2 5 cylinder turbo in the S4/S6 had an auxiliary electric water pump that would circulate coolant through the turbo unit after shutdown, kinda like a turbo timer. So, it is possible that the 1.8T has the same thing.
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02-22-2001, 07:22 PM | #17 |
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Cy, here are some older posts from the Audiworld that should put your mind at ease about the coolant running after the engine shutdown.
link1 link2 link3 I've also talked to two separate Audi techs at two different dealership and they both confirmed the existence of a small electric pump to run the coolant after shutdown. Don't take my word for it. Follow my directions above and see it for yourself. [This message has been edited by Leszek (edited February 22, 2001).] |
02-22-2001, 07:45 PM | #18 |
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I don't know but just reading the links above I am unclear as to weather or not the 1.8T on the A4 has the after shutdown cooling. It seems even the audi folks are pretty confused about it as well. It is a good idea. I also doubt the ability of the 1.8T to out torque a 2.0 WRX. Torque is all about displacement and the 1.8 has 10% less. How does the 1.8T chip increase both horsepower and torque so dramatically? Why wouldn't VW just put this different programming on the thing in the first place if it has no drawbacks. Comparing modified cars to unmodified cars is pretty unfair. I'm sure the WRX will respond to mods well if running with an S4 stock isn't good enough.
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02-22-2001, 08:25 PM | #19 |
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hersbird, the 1.8T has much higher compression than the EJ-20 in the WRX. This makes off boost performance much more lively.
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02-22-2001, 08:50 PM | #20 |
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1:9.5 to be exact until MY2000 and 1:8.5 MY2001.
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02-22-2001, 09:12 PM | #21 |
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Thats all fine and dandy but people here are claiming that just with a change in the way the computer controls the 1.8T you can add 70 ft/lbs and 50 HP. This is assuming you start with the 170 hp version. It really sounds like snake oil to me. I might be talked into buying a 30 hp gain to 200 and a modest torque gain to say 190 but no way 240 ft/lbs from just a computer chip alone.
Just look at what the 225 hp TT coupe has to add and still only makes 207 ft/lbs of torque. It's weight is less then the A4 and still can't touch performance numbers put up by the WRX. [This message has been edited by Hersbird (edited February 22, 2001).] |
02-22-2001, 09:31 PM | #22 |
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Im worried about the tall gearing that the WRX might have, im not hoping for much in acceleration in 4th or 5th, rather depending on 3rd gear downshifts (something i didnt have to worry about with my VTEC transmission). Thats it though, i will get use to the car and love it!
Next time i want a close ratio 6 speed (real aggressive 1-5th,and cruising 6th) And if im not mistaken isnt the 1.8t a couple grand more than the WRX? Im not much of VW fans, Audis are nice, the only one i would like to have is the S8 from RONIN, ahh that is the flagship, i like it more than 7series bimmer. S600 coupe is still the shhht!!! EJ20WRX [This message has been edited by EJ20WRX (edited February 22, 2001).] |
02-22-2001, 09:36 PM | #23 |
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It is believed that Audi/VW purposely detuned the 1.8t engine to produce 150hp in the first Passat/A4. This was so that it wouldn't compete with sales of their 6 cylinder engine, which only puts out ~190hp. The 1.8t is available in a variety of different tunings from Audi, including a 225hp version in the TT. There are a variety of ECU only upgrades for the 1.8t that bring it to 200hp without any difficulty. I'm not sure about the claims on torque, though, as most of the figures I've seen claim about 210ft-lbs.
I will say this, though... performance claims for the 225hp/210ft-lbs TT coupe, which weighs 3274lbs are around a 7.5s 0-60. That's not anywhere near the performace of the WRX. I own a stock 1.8t Passat, and while it's fun to drive, I'd hardly call it fast. The chip upgrade to 200hp is cheap, and it definitely helps, but the WRX is in a different league. [This message has been edited by drklahn (edited February 22, 2001).] |
02-22-2001, 09:56 PM | #24 |
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As far as I know, torque is not about displacement rather how long the cylinders are. Check this article out on <a href="http://www.howstuffworks.com/fpte3.htm">howstuffworks.com</a>
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02-22-2001, 09:59 PM | #25 |
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Actually, the numbers on the 225HP TTq are 0-60 in 6.3.
The 180HP TTq does the mid to high 7s. With a $500 1.0 bar chip on the 225 hp TTq horsepower jumps to mid 250s. Add an exhaust and 260 is reached easily (which when calculated put the Audi machine in mid 5s for 0-60). Now this is going to be about $10,000 more than a WRX, but damn. Look at the package it comes in! -Dog |
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