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Old 10-29-2012, 12:27 PM   #1
Crystal_Imprezav
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Default Outfront Motorsports Closed-Deck Torture Test

So this all stems back from the other thread about Outfront's closed-deck being useless since I have seen cracks with them installed. Since then, they took me up on my offer to abuse one to see if their NEW design is any good. I'll give them an A for effort so far, to take the constructive critisism and actually do something about it instead of continuing to sell a worthless product. On to the pictures.

Here is the old design. Notice the minute and worthless material around the case bolt relief slots up top on the trust side. Also notice that they cut out the stock braces and pressed in one solid piece. The problem with that IMO is that the cylinders just became an open deck and pressing in the new deck will move the cylinders around more so and if the new deck expands differently then you will continue to distort the deck.

Which eventually will lead to this:


Their new design, leaves the stock braces and beefs up the case bolt slots. The funky looking bottom plate actually looks like that on purpose because that is where a cooling passage is on the newer HG's.




The plate actually requires you to grind down you case bolts and washers about 1mm in order for them to fit into the cases.




So far, I am somewhat impressed with the newer design. More to follow.

Last edited by Crystal_Imprezav; 05-02-2014 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:28 PM   #2
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Hardware included: Cleaned and some replated bolts. A set of the new King main bearings. Some misc gaskets and seals.


Last edited by Crystal_Imprezav; 10-30-2012 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:28 PM   #3
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Reserved 2
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:54 PM   #4
...CHUCKLES...
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So when you say "Torture Test" what exactly do you plan on doing?

Are you comparing it to something else?
Are you going to use a real dyno? Not just VDR.
Are you just planning to see how many lbs of boost, volts of knock, retarded or advanced timing it will take before it pops?
Are you going to break in the motor?
Are you going to also use a rallyspec closed deck block as well? For a comparison.
What fuel, turbo, injectors ect ect will you be using?
Will this be tested in a climate controlled room?

Last edited by ...CHUCKLES...; 10-29-2012 at 02:16 PM. Reason: Spelling errors
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:23 PM   #5
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With a reasonable idea of the threashold that OE cylinders bust, the idea is to prove that this solution can take you past that threshold, or this is my understanding of the test.

The bigger question for me is if this is meant to be destructive testing. Push it untill it breaks?

I hope this works out and Im sure CI will document findings very well. Hats off to Outfront for stepping up to the bar.
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:52 PM   #6
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Not meant to be destructive testing. The block will see the same abuse my current block sees. The idea will be to run the block at 30-32psi and to put some daily driving miles on it, hopefully run it at the track a few times when it reopens, then tear it down and see how it looks. If it truly works, we should see no cracks, less engine wear, same/good cooling, etc. JC supposedly got the sleeves to crack at around 32psi so it should be interesting to see what happens around that power level.
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Old 10-29-2012, 08:20 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
Not meant to be destructive testing. The block will see the same abuse my current block sees. The idea will be to run the block at 30-32psi and to put some daily driving miles on it, hopefully run it at the track a few times when it reopens, then tear it down and see how it looks. If it truly works, we should see no cracks, less engine wear, same/good cooling, etc. JC supposedly got the sleeves to crack at around 32psi so it should be interesting to see what happens around that power level.
This is true, our previous design was good to 30psi, we acknowledge the limitations of our first design. JC and I know for a fact that JC could not have pushed a stock sTi block to the HP levels he attained with our first design. He is now using a sleeved block, when he is done testing/proving that, we will offer him our new block too to beat the crap out of on the track

John

Last edited by outfrontmotorsports; 10-29-2012 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 12-17-2013, 07:19 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
Not meant to be destructive testing. The block will see the same abuse my current block sees. The idea will be to run the block at 30-32psi and to put some daily driving miles on it, hopefully run it at the track a few times when it reopens, then tear it down and see how it looks. If it truly works, we should see no cracks, less engine wear, same/good cooling, etc. JC supposedly got the sleeves to crack at around 32psi so it should be interesting to see what happens around that power level.
I don't see why everyone is concerned about intake manifold boost pressure, when the actual pressure in the engine on a stock 2013 sti for example, is 292 psi on average at peak torque! or 20 bars of pressure, so its neither here nor there about what the manifold pressure is. Cylinder pressures is what split sleeves, lift heads,blow head gaskets,etc. 30+psi can be achieved on a small turbo, doesn't mean your engine is going to split a sleeve because manifold pressure is 30+psi? I think members need to better understand the relationship between manifold pressure and cylinder pressures. Not hitting out at you Crystal_Imprezav, just pointing this out for others that may not understand.

Last edited by shomspeed; 12-18-2013 at 01:20 AM.
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Old 12-17-2013, 08:22 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by shomspeed View Post
Cylinder pressures is what split sleeves, lift heads,blow head gaskets,etc.
True story here! And this has more to do with the tune than the build does!
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:55 PM   #10
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try and get that turbo to match the aq t/a car, what is that at like 700+whp now? also once you do that, some 20-30 min road race sessions of 55-8k the whole time will tell us a bit, drag I feel isn't as hard as long term hotter temps abuse

jolly good show mate, Can't wait

hopefully they don't still outsource their head work from the same guys down the street, that is what I feel was the main reason in our failures, but you had more first hand experience checking out our closed decks as you teared them down, warped, ovaled, bad/inconsistant clearances, and worse of all proud of selling china parts to make the extra buck, anyone buying stuff from them be sure to ask if its oem stuff, or just supply them with the gasket kit, and a few other things, their 1/2" headstud im not sure if it arp or china stuff, but for 500 including machine work to block and putting the new insert in the heads, sounds like a china stud price, gaskets are most likely china and worst of all their h-beam forged rods are super cheezy and we are way better off using stock sti rods instead of those

chuckles, what does crystal using a rallyspec closed deck have anything to do with this test?

Last edited by Irv Weissmanhowerton; 10-29-2012 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 10-29-2012, 02:07 PM   #11
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^^^ I am not so convinced of this, because Outfront has been doing closed deck blocks for years almost a decade or more even before the more recent 704 cases debacol have been out.

However I do think it is great Jeremy and the guys from Outfront were willing to take this task on. I would have just assumed that if they wanted to do a REAL torture test they would have sent a completed turn key motor to a legitamate engine testing faculty to prove... Something.

So to me this almost seems like a blind test with no comparison, there for no matter the results it will most certainly be better than nothing and result in fantom data.

I just see WAY to many loopholes in this so to speek test.

But I am getting way ahead of myself this might just turn out fanominal... We shall see.
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Old 10-29-2012, 02:13 PM   #12
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The rallyspec block was just a question if there was a comparison? And would that be compared to the Outfront closed deck block test to the rallyspec closed deck (if he were to test that to). Outside of that there was no reason for it.
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Old 10-29-2012, 02:33 PM   #13
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JC only had a GTX35R so my HTA86 should be pretty close in comparison.

Rallispec doesn't make a closed deck block that I know of. Did you mean S&R?
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Old 10-29-2012, 03:09 PM   #14
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Well any closed deck block for that matter. I could have swore rallispec did at one point (if not my bad).

But the the main point of that was to have a comparison of any kind, and not just say that this Outfront block is better or worse than... Err, aah this Outfront block.
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Old 10-29-2012, 03:30 PM   #15
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As a guy in a situation where I'd be interested in actually spending the money, I'd want to know how it stacks up against a stock block, and against a standard sleeved block.

I don't know if wheel horse/torque, or just flat out boost pressure is a better number to measure (without putting fancy technology to measure actual cylinder pressure).

In the end, my concern, as a potential customer, is say next year I was to run a monster turbo and really crank up the boost. What's the most cost effective way of getting my hands on a block that will handle this? Are these things going to be better than a stock block? Better than sleeves? At what cost?

Looking forward to results!
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Old 08-12-2013, 11:11 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juks View Post
As a guy in a situation where I'd be interested in actually spending the money, I'd want to know how it stacks up against a stock block, and against a standard sleeved block.

I don't know if wheel horse/torque, or just flat out boost pressure is a better number to measure (without putting fancy technology to measure actual cylinder pressure).

In the end, my concern, as a potential customer, is say next year I was to run a monster turbo and really crank up the boost. What's the most cost effective way of getting my hands on a block that will handle this? Are these things going to be better than a stock block? Better than sleeves? At what cost?

Looking forward to results!
If you go with sleeves you better plan on pulling the motor apart and a lot more often. The sleeves always fall at some point. If you're looking for full race build then its fine but if you're just looking for a high hp daily I would recommend just sticking with the fully closed deck.
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Old 08-12-2013, 01:36 PM   #17
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If you go with sleeves you better plan on pulling the motor apart and a lot more often. The sleeves always fall at some point. If you're looking for full race build then its fine but if you're just looking for a high hp daily I would recommend just sticking with the fully closed deck.
Is this bolded part true? I would love to hear the sleeve installers/expert users and their opinions/facts/pictures. So many conflicting posts; I thought that Benson's stuff wasn't falling and that he and a couple others had the install down.
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:03 PM   #18
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Is this bolded part true? I would love to hear the sleeve installers/expert users and their opinions/facts/pictures. So many conflicting posts; I thought that Benson's stuff wasn't falling and that he and a couple others had the install down.
Theres about a 7/10 chance your going to have issues with your sleeved motor. However the issues will usually rise quickly and as soon as boost goes up. HOWEVER once you get a sleeved block that has settled/bottomed out sleeves that have been heated and cooled you will never have any issues again.

I know of 2 ppl on here that recently had benson sleeved blocks done that both had issues. BUT the issues were rectified in short order and those ppl are now boosting well past 33 psi and daily. Most sleevers though will not help you out once the heads leave their shop. Nature of the beast
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Old 08-12-2013, 10:15 PM   #19
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If you go with sleeves you better plan on pulling the motor apart and a lot more often. The sleeves always fall at some point. If you're looking for full race build then its fine but if you're just looking for a high hp daily I would recommend just sticking with the fully closed deck.
Never had a problem with any sleeves we put into any blocks.
But that may e because we sleeve our close deck blocks.
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Old 10-29-2012, 03:50 PM   #20
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Would it be possible to O-ring the block?
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Old 10-29-2012, 04:02 PM   #21
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Thanks for doing this. Despite other critical sentiments made by other members, I really appreciate your posts.

My only concern is that you're not currently destroying blocks as is, so that makes it hard to compare. If you do manage to crack the sleeves, what does that prove? Likewise, what will it prove if the block survives considering you don't have a problem right now.

Still I'm anxious to hear your thoughts after testing.
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Old 10-29-2012, 04:15 PM   #22
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Once I am done testing it, the teardown should tell a lot. If the inserts are truly working well, skirt wear, ring wear, and cylinder wear should be much less than with a stock semi-closed deck motor which I will compare to. Like reid-o said, I don't destroy blocks as is so it is highly unlikey I will destroy this one but running it with identical internals to my current motor should give a decent comparison on wear.
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Old 10-29-2012, 04:24 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
Once I am done testing it, the teardown should tell a lot. If the inserts are truly working well, skirt wear, ring wear, and cylinder wear should be much less than with a stock semi-closed deck motor which I will compare to. Like reid-o said, I don't destroy blocks as is so it is highly unlikey I will destroy this one but running it with identical internals to my current motor should give a decent comparison on wear.
Seems you should be able to push more boost than is recommended for a stock block with your HTA86 right? Any value to doing so? Maybe give some guys a comfort level in running big boost on these things? I don't know what guys are maxing stock blocks on, but I thought I read 32psi was as high as you wanted to go on stock sleeves (with a turbo worth doing it with). Any chance you can run 35psi on your HTA for a while?
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Old 10-29-2012, 07:26 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
Once I am done testing it, the teardown should tell a lot. If the inserts are truly working well, skirt wear, ring wear, and cylinder wear should be much less than with a stock semi-closed deck motor which I will compare to. Like reid-o said, I don't destroy blocks as is so it is highly unlikey I will destroy this one but running it with identical internals to my current motor should give a decent comparison on wear.
If the plate adds stability to the sleeves thus reducing wear, then it might have merit other than the ones stated by outfront. One could only speculate from a tear down that the reduced wear was from less sleeve movement and only draw a strong correlation, but it would be enough for me if the costs were reasonable and the machining consistent.

S&R quoted me 2500 for a bare block fitted with their deck inserts. Just FYI
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Old 10-29-2012, 08:06 PM   #25
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If the plate adds stability to the sleeves thus reducing wear, then it might have merit other than the ones stated by outfront. One could only speculate from a tear down that the reduced wear was from less sleeve movement and only draw a strong correlation, but it would be enough for me if the costs were reasonable and the machining consistent.

S&R quoted me 2500 for a bare block fitted with their deck inserts. Just FYI
First we want to thanks Crystal for showing and testing our newest design block inserts. There is no doubt that there is a market for a stronger stock block rather than having the expense and failure of sleeved blocks. We feel this block will (without abuse such as poor tuning, boost spikes) survive in the 35psi range. also one of the biggest benifits of the block is to have an "undropoable" deck surface, cheaper costs over sleeving, and fits the bill for the guy who wants extra insurance for a 500 HP DD.

Our new sTi bare blocks with our closed deck is only $1900 and in stock. We can also perform this to your stock used block with a little time delay. This new design also works for both early and late HG designs covering the dual and quad AVCS head cooling passages.

Irv, i will comment on all of your post tomorrow with some pics to debunk your myths.

John

Last edited by outfrontmotorsports; 10-29-2012 at 08:44 PM.
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