STI homologation in the US

[electricmarquis]

so would the vehicle state title say Subaru or STI?

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

[NighthawkSTI]

The C.O.O I think would be Subaru Technica International....so I would think the Title would also conform to that.

Not to beat the door sticker to death(as quoted it, already LOL), but I think it should be emphasized and discussed.

Sure it's marketing to get the S209's origin as the STI factory, but the cars were in fact altered and had their final assembley from Subaru Technica International at their facility, and everyone who knows STI knows they do the modifcations by hand, not on the Subaru Assembley line with other models.

The door sticker gives the S209 provenance, providing documentation that the S209 is an "STI" altered with all alterations done by Subaru Technica International. All of the alterations to the S209 improved performance over the RA, let alone the base models. The engine suspension, chasis, body aero and supporting subsystems were done at the Subaru Technica International facility by hand.

"This vehicle was altered by Kiryu Kougyu LTD CO. For S T I" That says it all This is a very significant car.

[subyski]

Originally Posted by WRX4US

It seems to me that part of the hassle was due to the insistence that the S209 would be registered as a “STI” rather than a Subaru.
I don’t know what future marketing considerations are at work here, but at least for now I don’t think the typical (what ever that is?) S209 buyer really cares if it’s a STI S209 or a Subaru STI S209.

I think that is the biggest question of all of this hassle. What is the full intent on the STI brand going forward? That power point slide shows exactly what confusion all of this creates when the U.S. Government is confused between Subaru, STI, STI models, and WRX STI. This doesn't even include tS models. Having STI as a secondary manufacturer still means STI falls under the same emissions and mpg requirements under Subaru, like Lexus is to Toyota. So does Subaru intend to separate all "STI things" under STI and separate the WRX STI under the STI brand? What, as a consumer going to gain? Does this mean we will continue to get $64k limited run vehicles based on the econobox Impreza?

To put things in perspective, how many here would consider the S209 that much better than a base STI as to say a Shelby GT350 is to a base Mustang GT? This is all for curiosity because STI does not live in a bubble. Just because it is built at a different location doesn't mean that much or does it.

[NighthawkSTI]

Originally Posted by subyski

I think that is the biggest question of all of this hassle. What is the full intent on the STI brand going forward? That power point slide shows exactly what confusion all of this creates when the U.S. Government is confused between Subaru, STI, STI models, and WRX STI. This doesn't even include tS models. Having STI as a secondary manufacturer still means STI falls under the same emissions and mpg requirements under Subaru, like Lexus is to Toyota. So does Subaru intend to separate all "STI things" under STI and separate the WRX STI under the STI brand? What, as a consumer going to gain? Does this mean we will continue to get $64k limited run vehicles based on the econobox Impreza?

To put things in perspective, how many here would consider the S209 that much better than a base STI as to say a Shelby GT350 is to a base Mustang GT? This is all for curiosity because STI does not live in a bubble. Just because it is built at a different location doesn't mean that much or does it.

the biggest complaint over here since say 2008 is that Japan has always had the STI cars that were worked on at the Subaru technical international facility. So ya....getting one sold here in the U.S with that provenance is a BIG deal. Subaru Technica International installs the upgrades by hand. So all the engine, body, chassis and suspension, and supporting hardware upgrades the S209 has are a big deal compared to the mass production Subaru assembley line STI model.

The S209 that ran VIR was 9 seconds faster than the last base STI they ran. I think your analogy of a base mustang GT with a GT350 isnt what you were really saying because if your saying the S209 is based on an econobox impreza then your analogy is only valid if you compare the S209 capabilities to a Subaru Impreza....I think the performance envelope from an impreza to an S209 would show adequate performance increase..LMAO!!!
but again these topics always get sidetracked with other brand cars being thrown in. What does a mustang GT or a GT350 have to do with S209 homologation? The answer. NOTHING.

I think everything about the S209 has been eloquently explained at this point, none of this is hard to understand LOL...and its not confusing, it got certified as a separate model and the U.S passed it as such for the first time, going forward there wont be any more confusion getting that done. I'll just read from here on out.

[subyski]

Fine, stay on specific STI topic. This is just not a S209 homologation but STI homologation as a manufacturer. So now we have the STI brand as a sub-manufacturer, now what? Does it all end here? While Suburu did say a few years ago that they plan on releasing more STI models, I don't think anyone anticipated it would lead to STI homologation. Most thought it would lead to possible Legacy STI, Forester STI, BRZ STI models.

Where does STI as a manufacturer go from here? This was a lot of hassle, time, money, paperwork, and politics to establish STI in the U.S. for just 209 cars, especially if $64k x 209 may not cover it. This S209 is not spec'd like the past S-series cars (we all know how). It does open the door for future STI Spec C & Type RA-R models for the U.S. but will those be closer to JDM spec or will they be "modified/altered" for U.S. consumption and have some major differences and omissions? Will STI expand to other models? In theory, they could make a run of STI Levorg models for U.S. consumption.

[WRX4US]

How many really care if it’s titled as STI or as a Subaru STI?
I don’t.

[KC]

Is Subaru gonna have a sports car brand like Pontiac was to GM?

[4S-TURBO]

What I want to know is how did Subaru not know how to do this? Couldn't they have looked at other import companies' products and know what to expect? Here's Audi's equivalent tuning arm:

Audi Sport GmbH, formerly known as quattro GmbH, is a high-performance division of Audi, a division of the Volkswagen Group.

Founded in October 1983 as quattro GmbH, it primarily specialises in producing high performance Audi cars and components, along with purchaser specified customisations. The company's former name was an homage to Audi's original four-wheel drive rally-inspired road car—the Audi Quattro. In 2016, the company was renamed Audi Sport GmbH.

It is located in a 3,500 square metres (37,670 sq ft) site at Neckarsulm, near Stuttgart, in the German State of Baden-Württemberg. With over twenty years experience, their own development and manufacturing factories are based within the larger 10,700 square metres (115,170 sq ft) site of the now defunct German automotive maker (and Wankel pistonless rotary engine pioneer) NSU Motorenwerke AG (NSU), on what is now known as Audi's "aluminium plant", or aluminium site.

Although "quattro GmbH" as a company may be relatively unknown, compared to its parent, Audi, its core products include the Audi RS4, the Audi RS6 and the Audi R8. Furthermore, it is a 'closed company', in that it does not sell its automobiles directly to the public via franchised outlets under its own brand name; instead, they are sold under the Audi marque. However, it does now sell 'quattro GmbH' branded lifestyle products and accessories via Audi franchised outlets and Audi Forum such as that located in the Allianz Arena on the northern outskirts of Munich, Germany.

Doesn't seem all too complicated and has been around for decades. Federal regulators could have easily seen what the STI built car being sold under the guise of Subaru at Subaru dealership networks through Subaru exclusively was all about. This article is half believable.

[subyski]

^That's a good point. Does Audi Sport exist in the U.S. in the sense as a manufacturer? I was under the impression that the USDM RS cars were just Audi's.

[shoots808]

you were surprised that the US Gov doesn't have a clue about vehicles...do tell. Sounds like they had Greta over their shoulder on the bs emissions testing.

[fredzy]

Originally Posted by KC

Is Subaru gonna have a sports car brand like Pontiac was to GM?

If STI becomes to Subaru what Pontiac became to GM, the whole "sexually transmitted infection, LOL" thing will actually become kind of funny for several reasons.

[littledrummerboy]

Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO

What I want to know is how did Subaru not know how to do this? Couldn't they have looked at other import companies' products and know what to expect? Here's Audi's equivalent tuning arm:



Doesn't seem all too complicated and has been around for decades. Federal regulators could have easily seen what the STI built car being sold under the guise of Subaru at Subaru dealership networks through Subaru exclusively was all about. This article is half believable.

I'm pretty sure Audi Sport builds the cars from their facilities while STI doesn't... It sounds like that's the difference that complicated it.

STI has to buy S209 base from Subaru first since STI themselves don't have manufacturing facilities, just tuning facilities... they have to buy the car from Subaru proper to make the changes, but there are enough changes that the US says "its not the same car from Subaru" so they had to go through all the extra red-tape to become a "manufacturer". While Audi Sport and STI both don't sell directly to consumers, Audi Sport sounds like they make it there and they've already established themselves as a manufacturing entity where STI hasn't... until now.

Edit: with all the extra red tape and costs, I bet Subaru isn't making much money, if any at all, on the S209 despite the high price. I think there will be more special variants like better Type-RA, S-cars, maybe Spec-c cars too in the future just to recoup the cost of homologation and establishing STI as a manufacturing entity.

[SatinWhitePearl]

The entire "homologation" point was designed to help justify the S209's asking price, period.

It's a glorified Type RA, FFS they even share the same block.

[littledrummerboy]

And? it is what it is... at least there's somewhat of an explanation why things cost the way they do. Its different enough imo... Whether people like it and its cost is always a crap shoot.

Sure you can mod an STI or Type-RA and on paper have the same thing, but you're also not homologating it. I'd love to see the final cost of people modding their STIs to meet the same parts/power/warranty PLUS ther time to do it properly/reliably PLUS whatever costs are associated with homologation and red tape. Let's also see the re-sale value of a modded STI vs. the S209 stock. The S209 is looking reasonable imo

[WRXnick16]

Originally Posted by littledrummerboy

and costs, I bet Subaru isn't making much money, if any at all, on the S209 despite the high price. I think there will be more special variants like better Type-RA, S-cars, maybe Spec-c cars too in the future just to recoup the cost of homologation and establishing STI as a manufacturing entity.

I agree, they're probably not making much of a profit (if at all).

From solely a parts manufacturing perspective, Subaru is making quite a profit. The S209 certainly doesn't have $15k worth of parts over the Type RA or nearly $30k over a base STI. Of course this has to go towards the extra R&D, STI's time to hand-assemble some of the components, and the homologation.

With the "unexpected" time and costs associated with homologtion, it quickly becomes apparent why we didn't get a hand-built engine with forged pistons.. it sounds like Subaru should have better predicted all of this.

Of course, Subaru could have offered the S209 in higher quantities to help offset the cost. Even a run of 500 units would have still been special. But STI is limited with how many cars they can finish per day.

The consumer is then helping pay for the homologation costs.. it's up to them whether the S209 is special enough to warrant the price.

[littledrummerboy]

Originally Posted by WRXnick16

...
Of course, Subaru could have offered the S209 in higher quantities to help offset the cost. Even a run of 500 units would have still been special. But STI is limited with how many cars they can finish per day.

The consumer is then helping pay for the homologation costs.. it's up to them whether the S209 is special enough to warrant the price.

agreed.
#of units produced would spread the cost, but I guarantee you capacity at STI played a role there too.

Subaru needs to take a hard look at their capacity... why they don't make another factory for the regular line and/or STI variants is beyond me.

[subyski]

Originally Posted by SatinWhitePearl

The entire "homologation" point was designed to help justify the S209's asking price, period.

It's a glorified Type RA, FFS they even share the same block.

I doubt homologation was just done to justify its price. Subaru already charged $50k for the RA. If homologation wasn't an issue, they could have still charged $64k for the S209 since the S series cars were such forbidden fruit to U.S. customers. That alone is enough to move 209 units.

Originally Posted by littledrummerboy

Let's also see the re-sale value of a modded STI vs. the S209 stock. The S209 is looking reasonable imo

The S209 will probably hold its value if you can keep it stock. A few have been purchased by shops so they have been messed with already. I recall one was in an accident already. And there are probably a few that will be tracked and abused. Then there will inevitably be a few that are modified too. So less unmolested samples are out there.

[littledrummerboy]

^ yeah. An STI moded to be at stock S209 level won't re-sell anywhere near a stock S209 with the same miles/kms. People generally don't want someone else's molested car.
In a few years a stock S209 will probably go up in price even with some reasonable miles/kms put on her...

[neg_matnik]

Spending big bucks on homologating STI as a standalone manufacturer makes no sense unless there's a serious plan to recoup some of that money by selling a lot more cars.
I'm looking forward to Crosstrek, Forester, Legacy or BRZ getting the full-on STI treatment; otherwise, again, IMO, that whole exercise has been a huge waste of money.

[subyski]

^Bring the Levorg STI while they are at it.

[littledrummerboy]

Originally Posted by neg_matnik

Spending big bucks on homologating STI as a standalone manufacturer makes no sense unless there's a serious plan to recoup some of that money by selling a lot more cars.
I'm looking forward to Crosstrek, Forester, Legacy or BRZ getting the full-on STI treatment; otherwise, again, IMO, that whole exercise has been a huge waste of money.

totally agree.
I'd love to see the roadmap plan for this... hopefully there is one. If there isn't...

[neg_matnik]

Originally Posted by subyski

^Bring the Levorg STI while they are at it.

I didn't want to bring up Levorg because, frankly, it's a sore subject as far as I'm concerned.
Federalizing the "regular" Levorg as Subaru is probably cheaper than the whole STI homologation effort; then we can argue whether or not sales figures for Levorg would have made it worthwhile. I think it would, but I'm obviously biased .

[4S-TURBO]

Why didn't they port install all these parts in the US? When they realized they weren't going to hand build the engines it was just a matter of shipping out the cars and the parts and assembling them in the US. I can't imagine anything on the S209 being out of spec range for safety tests. Subaru offers lips, side skirt and rear valance kits for the base STI and WRX. The fenders are not sticking out past the mirror caps. The tires are not sticking out past the fenders. All the catalyzers are in place and the engine output doesn't even exceed the Esx Red Dragon 2015 limited run STI which was CARB exempt.

Nothing about this car makes any goddam sense to a rational person. It's cool to the kool aid drinkers, but outside of that, with no hand assembled and blueprinted engine, this car is at best a port installed option bolt on special that makes less power than the Red Dragon.

[Pre]

Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO

Why didn't they port install all these parts in the US? When they realized they weren't going to hand build the engines it was just a matter of shipping out the cars and the parts and assembling them in the US. I can't imagine anything on the S209 being out of spec range for safety tests. Subaru offers lips, side skirt and rear valance kits for the base STI and WRX. The fenders are not sticking out past the mirror caps. The tires are not sticking out past the fenders. All the catalyzers are in place and the engine output doesn't even exceed the Esx Red Dragon 2015 limited run STI which was CARB exempt.

Nothing about this car makes any goddam sense to a rational person. It's cool to the kool aid drinkers, but outside of that, with no hand assembled and blueprinted engine, this car is at best a port installed option bolt on special that makes less power than the Red Dragon.

100%

If it's gonna be that kind of party I'm gonna stick my ding a ling in the mash potatoes.

[littledrummerboy]

Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO

Why didn't they port install all these parts in the US? When they realized they weren't going to hand build the engines it was just a matter of shipping out the cars and the parts and assembling them in the US. I can't imagine anything on the S209 being out of spec range for safety tests. Subaru offers lips, side skirt and rear valance kits for the base STI and WRX. The fenders are not sticking out past the mirror caps. The tires are not sticking out past the fenders. All the catalyzers are in place and the engine output doesn't even exceed the Esx Red Dragon 2015 limited run STI which was CARB exempt.

Nothing about this car makes any goddam sense to a rational person. It's cool to the kool aid drinkers, but outside of that, with no hand assembled and blueprinted engine, this car is at best a port installed option bolt on special that makes less power than the Red Dragon.

From what they've said it looks like they couldn't install the parts in North America and call it a day -- enough was changed that they're told to re-certify and do all that stuff including safety.
Does that require becoming a manufacturing entity? My limited knowledge doesn't think so either... The only way it makes sense is if there's a future, bigger picture for STI being homologated the way it is now...