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Old 01-28-2019, 07:25 PM   #1
dreew
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Join Date: Jul 2016
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Default 2015 wrx conecting rods

Hey guys Iím doing research for my FA20DIT engine build. What would be the difference in between Manley H-Tuff Connecting Rod Set and Brian Crower Connecting Rods I-Beam . Iím looking at pistons as well Manley Platinum Series Lightweight 86.1mm +.1mm Bore 10:1 Dish Piston Set is what my builder recommends due to him wanting to hone out the block to make all the pistons the same size instead of using the A & B subaru sizeing but this is my first built engine and I donít know any of these brands so any insight would be appreciated. I want to be somewhat educated on the subject and not blindly just buy stuff without looking at options. This is the parts list supplied to me so far. the crankshaft is not the right P/N or price btw.

Brian crower rods I-Beam 716.69
BC6617

OEM subaru crankshaft 359.99
12200AA330

manley platinum series lightweight 479.99
pistons 86.1mm +.1mm bore full set of
4
632701C-4-
King tri metal performance rod 150.00
bearings
CR4616XPG-
king tri metal main bearings 156.99
MB5745XPG
subaru master gasket kit 244.99
10105AB560
ARP head stud kit 214.99
260-4301
Shop Supplies 25.00
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Old 01-30-2019, 12:58 PM   #2
Turn in Concepts
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I've done a fair number of these now and I'll give you my thoughts. Let me break it down a bit as there's a number of things here to cover.

1) I have used both the BC and Manley rods. They have both worked fine. If time allows there's soon to be another offering on the market that I believe will be quite appealing to people in terms of weight, design, strength and price point.

2) If you are going to reuse your old case then you absolutely will need to machine for the pistons. Period. Anybody that tells you that you can use drop in pistons in a used Subaru case is an idiot. Your machinist is spot on with his recommendation. On a side note please make sure he does the machine work using a proper torque plate, AND using the hardware you're going to use for the build (in other words head studs due to your mentioning it).

Additionally, if you are reusing your old case I will strongly recommend you have the bore and straightness of the mains checked.

Bottom line a Subaru case is a floppy bag of aluminum that holds the guts in. With heat cycles it moves all over the place. You need to start with something that is true and square.

3) I have used the Manley pistons a number of times in a number of builds for a number of makes and models for a number of years. These will work just fine for your build.

4) I have used the king bearings on these engines. I have also used the ACL rod bearings (mains will be available beginning of march). The king rod bearings are fine. I do not like the main bearings. When they first came out we found that the main bearing clearance was HUGE. So we did the .001" tighter bearings. Still too big. The FA motor runs pretty tight bearing clearances. A call to our rep at King, and we found that they made the .001" tighter bearings the same thickness as standard. So the king standard is .001" bigger than OEM standard, and the STDX (big clearance) is actually .002" bigger than OEM standard.

Now, I can understand why they did this because when people do aftermarket they usually go bigger. In many cases this holds true, but in the case of the FA20 this is not the case.

Granted this was a long time ago so they may have changed that up, but I am just relaying my experience.

So, we have been using the OEM main bearings to get our target clearances. I want to emphasize something for everyone out there, beit the FA or the EJ engine. The Subaru OEM bearings are GOOD bearings. There's not a darn thing wrong with them from a technical standpoint. What people do not like is the price, and the FA main bearings is no exception. Compared to the aftermarket they are quite expensive, BUT in the FA market as of right now you don't have a choice (that I am aware of) if you want to hit your target clearances... or perhaps I should say my target clearances.

5) The Subaru master gasket set is not complete. A number of items are missing such as the stuff you need for the heads. Please keep this in mind.

6) Speaking of heads. As long as it's apart you will want to get the heads refreshed. I will caution you - the MAXIMUM you can deck of these heads is .004". That's not much room. If you need more then you can get thicker head gaskets from the boys over at Outfront Motorsports.

Also in regard to the heads - it has recently come to light that the OEM exhaust valves are currently the best possible valve for this motor. They are an inconel sodium filled valve, and is currently the apex of valve technology. The aftermarket has not caught up in this case yet. These engines run a rather hot combustion and the exhaust valves get scorching hot. Currently anything from the aftermarket has been failing to a degree that I am not happy with.

7) If it was a bearing that failed in the old engine then you MUST disassemble and clean every single oil passage. You MUST take apart the oil pump assembly and inspect it for scoring. You MUST take your old oil cooler and throw it in the trash and replace it.

8) ARP head studs. They do not have a bullnose on them. They do not have a neck between the threads. What happens when you install these is they "bottom out" on the threads. Because of this you MUST MUST MUST install these by hand, and DO NOT crank down on them with the might of Thor. Follow the instructions absolutely perfectly that is included with the kit. Personally I do not think they are as well engineered as the EJ studs. Yes. They work. Yes. They are (currently) the only game in town for FA studs.

Anybody that wants to argue with me in regards to these studs I will fight you, and you know my address. I have spent countless hours measuring and researching the head studs for the Subaru engines. Why would I do this? For a good reason. Perhaps I'll be able to elaborate on exactly why in a few months time.

And FINALLY the conclusion to my essay/rant. It sounds like you are heading down the right path, and it sounds like you machinist has a good head on his shoulders given his advice. Do continue, BUT keep in mind that there WILL be things that come up so please keep this in mind when budgeting.
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Old 01-30-2019, 01:28 PM   #3
JSR84
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
I've done a fair number of these now and I'll give you my thoughts. Let me break it down a bit as there's a number of things here to cover.

1) I have used both the BC and Manley rods. They have both worked fine. If time allows there's soon to be another offering on the market that I believe will be quite appealing to people in terms of weight, design, strength and price point.

2) If you are going to reuse your old case then you absolutely will need to machine for the pistons. Period. Anybody that tells you that you can use drop in pistons in a used Subaru case is an idiot. Your machinist is spot on with his recommendation. On a side note please make sure he does the machine work using a proper torque plate, AND using the hardware you're going to use for the build (in other words head studs due to your mentioning it).

Additionally, if you are reusing your old case I will strongly recommend you have the bore and straightness of the mains checked.

Bottom line a Subaru case is a floppy bag of aluminum that holds the guts in. With heat cycles it moves all over the place. You need to start with something that is true and square.

3) I have used the Manley pistons a number of times in a number of builds for a number of makes and models for a number of years. These will work just fine for your build.

4) I have used the king bearings on these engines. I have also used the ACL rod bearings (mains will be available beginning of march). The king rod bearings are fine. I do not like the main bearings. When they first came out we found that the main bearing clearance was HUGE. So we did the .001" tighter bearings. Still too big. The FA motor runs pretty tight bearing clearances. A call to our rep at King, and we found that they made the .001" tighter bearings the same thickness as standard. So the king standard is .001" bigger than OEM standard, and the STDX (big clearance) is actually .002" bigger than OEM standard.

Now, I can understand why they did this because when people do aftermarket they usually go bigger. In many cases this holds true, but in the case of the FA20 this is not the case.

Granted this was a long time ago so they may have changed that up, but I am just relaying my experience.

So, we have been using the OEM main bearings to get our target clearances. I want to emphasize something for everyone out there, beit the FA or the EJ engine. The Subaru OEM bearings are GOOD bearings. There's not a darn thing wrong with them from a technical standpoint. What people do not like is the price, and the FA main bearings is no exception. Compared to the aftermarket they are quite expensive, BUT in the FA market as of right now you don't have a choice (that I am aware of) if you want to hit your target clearances... or perhaps I should say my target clearances.

5) The Subaru master gasket set is not complete. A number of items are missing such as the stuff you need for the heads. Please keep this in mind.

6) Speaking of heads. As long as it's apart you will want to get the heads refreshed. I will caution you - the MAXIMUM you can deck of these heads is .004". That's not much room. If you need more then you can get thicker head gaskets from the boys over at Outfront Motorsports.

Also in regard to the heads - it has recently come to light that the OEM exhaust valves are currently the best possible valve for this motor. They are an inconel sodium filled valve, and is currently the apex of valve technology. The aftermarket has not caught up in this case yet. These engines run a rather hot combustion and the exhaust valves get scorching hot. Currently anything from the aftermarket has been failing to a degree that I am not happy with.

7) If it was a bearing that failed in the old engine then you MUST disassemble and clean every single oil passage. You MUST take apart the oil pump assembly and inspect it for scoring. You MUST take your old oil cooler and throw it in the trash and replace it.

8) ARP head studs. They do not have a bullnose on them. They do not have a neck between the threads. What happens when you install these is they "bottom out" on the threads. Because of this you MUST MUST MUST install these by hand, and DO NOT crank down on them with the might of Thor. Follow the instructions absolutely perfectly that is included with the kit. Personally I do not think they are as well engineered as the EJ studs. Yes. They work. Yes. They are (currently) the only game in town for FA studs.

Anybody that wants to argue with me in regards to these studs I will fight you, and you know my address. I have spent countless hours measuring and researching the head studs for the Subaru engines. Why would I do this? For a good reason. Perhaps I'll be able to elaborate on exactly why in a few months time.

And FINALLY the conclusion to my essay/rant. It sounds like you are heading down the right path, and it sounds like you machinist has a good head on his shoulders given his advice. Do continue, BUT keep in mind that there WILL be things that come up so please keep this in mind when budgeting.
I just wanted to say that was a great post trying to help someone out. I've seen some discouraging replays to threads like this, and it's refreshing to see this kind of response.
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Old 01-30-2019, 07:46 PM   #4
Delphi
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It's really nice seeing a shop post info like that. Refreshing to see honestly since many are quite tight lipped about this stuff which I can understand why though.
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Old 01-31-2019, 01:10 AM   #5
Homemade WRX
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Turn In Concepts, so much love for the community.
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Old 02-09-2019, 11:35 PM   #6
dreew
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: oklahoma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
I've done a fair number of these now and I'll give you my thoughts. Let me break it down a bit as there's a number of things here to cover.

1) I have used both the BC and Manley rods. They have both worked fine. If time allows there's soon to be another offering on the market that I believe will be quite appealing to people in terms of weight, design, strength and price point.

2) If you are going to reuse your old case then you absolutely will need to machine for the pistons. Period. Anybody that tells you that you can use drop in pistons in a used Subaru case is an idiot. Your machinist is spot on with his recommendation. On a side note please make sure he does the machine work using a proper torque plate, AND using the hardware you're going to use for the build (in other words head studs due to your mentioning it).

Additionally, if you are reusing your old case I will strongly recommend you have the bore and straightness of the mains checked.

Bottom line a Subaru case is a floppy bag of aluminum that holds the guts in. With heat cycles it moves all over the place. You need to start with something that is true and square.

3) I have used the Manley pistons a number of times in a number of builds for a number of makes and models for a number of years. These will work just fine for your build.

4) I have used the king bearings on these engines. I have also used the ACL rod bearings (mains will be available beginning of march). The king rod bearings are fine. I do not like the main bearings. When they first came out we found that the main bearing clearance was HUGE. So we did the .001" tighter bearings. Still too big. The FA motor runs pretty tight bearing clearances. A call to our rep at King, and we found that they made the .001" tighter bearings the same thickness as standard. So the king standard is .001" bigger than OEM standard, and the STDX (big clearance) is actually .002" bigger than OEM standard.

Now, I can understand why they did this because when people do aftermarket they usually go bigger. In many cases this holds true, but in the case of the FA20 this is not the case.

Granted this was a long time ago so they may have changed that up, but I am just relaying my experience.

So, we have been using the OEM main bearings to get our target clearances. I want to emphasize something for everyone out there, beit the FA or the EJ engine. The Subaru OEM bearings are GOOD bearings. There's not a darn thing wrong with them from a technical standpoint. What people do not like is the price, and the FA main bearings is no exception. Compared to the aftermarket they are quite expensive, BUT in the FA market as of right now you don't have a choice (that I am aware of) if you want to hit your target clearances... or perhaps I should say my target clearances.

5) The Subaru master gasket set is not complete. A number of items are missing such as the stuff you need for the heads. Please keep this in mind.

6) Speaking of heads. As long as it's apart you will want to get the heads refreshed. I will caution you - the MAXIMUM you can deck of these heads is .004". That's not much room. If you need more then you can get thicker head gaskets from the boys over at Outfront Motorsports.

Also in regard to the heads - it has recently come to light that the OEM exhaust valves are currently the best possible valve for this motor. They are an inconel sodium filled valve, and is currently the apex of valve technology. The aftermarket has not caught up in this case yet. These engines run a rather hot combustion and the exhaust valves get scorching hot. Currently anything from the aftermarket has been failing to a degree that I am not happy with.

7) If it was a bearing that failed in the old engine then you MUST disassemble and clean every single oil passage. You MUST take apart the oil pump assembly and inspect it for scoring. You MUST take your old oil cooler and throw it in the trash and replace it.

8) ARP head studs. They do not have a bullnose on them. They do not have a neck between the threads. What happens when you install these is they "bottom out" on the threads. Because of this you MUST MUST MUST install these by hand, and DO NOT crank down on them with the might of Thor. Follow the instructions absolutely perfectly that is included with the kit. Personally I do not think they are as well engineered as the EJ studs. Yes. They work. Yes. They are (currently) the only game in town for FA studs.

Anybody that wants to argue with me in regards to these studs I will fight you, and you know my address. I have spent countless hours measuring and researching the head studs for the Subaru engines. Why would I do this? For a good reason. Perhaps I'll be able to elaborate on exactly why in a few months time.

And FINALLY the conclusion to my essay/rant. It sounds like you are heading down the right path, and it sounds like you machinist has a good head on his shoulders given his advice. Do continue, BUT keep in mind that there WILL be things that come up so please keep this in mind when budgeting.
usually when i see long post like this i just skim thru and get all the bullet points and move on. But i read every word of this, twice. thanks for the info i appreciate the time and knowledge you put into this and i will use all of it in my situation. can i PM you with random questions?
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