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Old 09-25-2011, 08:41 PM   #26
2Fast4U1DAY
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Of course the ARP bolts are going to push, twist, and distort the whole align bore. The TQ Spec is nearly double what the factory spec is. The case isn't made for that kind of pressure.

Heres a perfect instance where we need someone to make an aftermarket block that can handle the power we want to put down, and the tq spec that the successful aftermarket parts companies design their parts around.

If we had more case integrity, then people like Dex, and several others wont have case failures (of course theres the point of elasticity, when something just cant handle it anymore and it gives up the ghost, but that's a whole different story).
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Old 09-25-2011, 08:45 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morrocco88 View Post
OP, Could you post the part numbers of your bore gauge and mic set, and what they cost roughly? I have been wanting to start learning and put together my own motor for a while, so these tools have been on my wish list for a while.
Sorry to heckle you, but maybe you missed my question. Thanks again for your time and this great read!
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Old 09-25-2011, 09:09 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morrocco88 View Post
Sorry to heckle you, but maybe you missed my question. Thanks again for your time and this great read!
No problem brother.

Fowler X-Tender Bore gauge: http://www.amazon.com/Fowler-Xtender-Electronic-Gages-FOW74-646-401/dp/B0015DQDHA
Mitutoyo 2-3" Micrometer: http://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-293-346-Digimatic-Micrometer-Standard/dp/B001OBQC56
Mitutoyo 3-4" Micrometer: http://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-293-347-Digimatic-Micrometer-Standard/dp/B002SG7QEC

I also have Mitutoyo 0-1" and 1-2" digital mic's, but you wont use them very often on a Subaru build. You will need the 1-2" for cam journals, and you could use the 0-1" for measuring ring thicknesses, but a good set of Mitutoyo digital calipers like this would suffice there in a pinch.


http://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-500-196-20-Digimatic-Digital-Caliper/dp/B001C0ZPNO

For the bore gauge and micrometers, I found mine on eBay brand new in the box. They had serial numbers scribed into the handles indicating they were purchased by a company, but were never used.

I think I paid $115.00 for the 3-4" and $125.00 for the 2-3".
The bore gauge I got brand new on eBay as well, and I think I paid somewhere north of $150.00 for it brand new.

I have owned all of these at least 3 other times in my life, but I bounce in and out of hobbies so often, that I have sold and re purchased them as needed.

This is the last set of mic's I will ever buy in my lifetime as I am older now, and don't need the space, or the money so I decided to buy good ones, 1 last time.

My suggestion is buy Mitutoyo for mic's and calipers, and Fowler for the bore gauge and you will have it for life if you choose to keep them.

There are better bore gauges out there, but they are also WAY more expensive, and I have yet to see one that I thought would give me better reliability that was worth the additional $400.00

The Fowler will let you check everything EXCEPT cam journal bores on the EJxx engine cases. For cam journal bores, I would trust plastigage. Or get a good small snap gauge, or buy a small diameter 3 post bore gauge if I were building engines for a living again.

Here is a good video on the bore gauge and it's capabilities:


I should tell you that I do NOT have a calibration (standard) ring like the one shown in the video.
YOU do not need one either.
Your mics will be what you use to calibrate your bore gauge.

For piston bores, you assign a piston to a bore, mark the piston, and it goes in that hole no matter what.
You then set that piston on the bench, use your 3-4" mic and measure at the appropriate point on the skirt of the piston, lock the mic, then place the mic in your vise (between soft jaws or wood like I show in the first post), then carefully use the zero function on the bore gauge to set it.
Now, when you check the bores, you sweep the gauge back and forth to find the lowest number and that is your clearance at that point in the bore.

Same process for crank and rod journals.

I find that I need a specific combination of measuring pin and spacer for 99.5/99.75mm bores, and the right combination of pin and spacer for the main journals.

I marked the pins and spacers for each, so I can easily set the gauge up in 10 seconds and be ready to use it when I want/need to.

Last edited by Team Scream; 09-25-2011 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 09-25-2011, 10:10 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Fast4U1DAY View Post
Its to make our lives complicated ;-). J/k I kinda am curious as to why as well. Anyone know?
Its the automated machining process. You can't expect to hit the same bore size over and over again. Everything has a tolerance and they probably shoot for the middle of the band and what you end up is what you get. If the bore size falls outside of the A or B size range the block is rejected.
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Old 09-25-2011, 10:17 PM   #30
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thats one of my points...hundreds of thousands and even millions of copies later...within spec?

guess subarus quality control is pretty darn good.
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Old 09-25-2011, 10:41 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Scream

Called ARP directly on Friday to confirm a couple of things:

(1) I wanted to know the torque value using the supplied lube
(2) I wanted to confirm that no deviation from the FSM torque sequence was required.

The tech told me 80 ft/lbs in 3 equal steps.
He also told me to use the FSM sequence as published.
I outlined the steps in the FSM to him on the phone and he confirmed that was the way they needed to be done.

Why do you suggest increasing the torque to 90 ft/lbs ?
I'm assuming our context is head studs:
The last 6 boxes of 260-4701 & 260-4702 studs have all had a torque spec of 90 ft lbs with Ultra-torque.
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Old 09-25-2011, 10:49 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Scream

No problem brother.

Fowler X-Tender Bore gauge: Video Link: http://www.amazon.com/Fowler-Xtender-Electronic-Gages-FOW74-646-401/dp/B0015DQDHA

Mitutoyo 2-3" Micrometer: Video Link: http://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-293-346-Digimatic-Micrometer-Standard/dp/B001OBQC56

Mitutoyo 3-4" Micrometer: Video Link: http://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-293-347-Digimatic-Micrometer-Standard/dp/B002SG7QEC

I also have Mitutoyo 0-1" and 1-2" digital mic's, but you wont use them very often on a Subaru build. You will need the 1-2" for cam journals, and you could use the 0-1" for measuring ring thicknesses, but a good set of Mitutoyo digital calipers like this would suffice there in a pinch.

Video Link: http://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-500-196-20-Digimatic-Digital-Caliper/dp/B001C0ZPNO

For the bore gauge and micrometers, I found mine on eBay brand new in the box. They had serial numbers scribed into the handles indicating they were purchased by a company, but were never used.

I think I paid $115.00 for the 3-4" and $125.00 for the 2-3".
The bore gauge I got brand new on eBay as well, and I think I paid somewhere north of $150.00 for it brand new.

I have owned all of these at least 3 other times in my life, but I bounce in and out of hobbies so often, that I have sold and re purchased them as needed.

This is the last set of mic's I will ever buy in my lifetime as I am older now, and don't need the space, or the money so I decided to buy good ones, 1 last time.

My suggestion is buy Mitutoyo for mic's and calipers, and Fowler for the bore gauge and you will have it for life if you choose to keep them.

There are better bore gauges out there, but they are also WAY more expensive, and I have yet to see one that I thought would give me better reliability that was worth the additional $400.00

The Fowler will let you check everything EXCEPT cam journal bores on the EJxx engine cases. For cam journal bores, I would trust plastigage. Or get a good small snap gauge, or buy a small diameter 3 post bore gauge if I were building engines for a living again.

Here is a good video on the bore gauge and it's capabilities:

Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez--JYSnrsM

I should tell you that I do NOT have a calibration (standard) ring like the one shown in the video.
YOU do not need one either.
Your mics will be what you use to calibrate your bore gauge.

For piston bores, you assign a piston to a bore, mark the piston, and it goes in that hole no matter what.
You then set that piston on the bench, use your 3-4" mic and measure at the appropriate point on the skirt of the piston, lock the mic, then place the mic in your vise (between soft jaws or wood like I show in the first post), then carefully use the zero function on the bore gauge to set it.
Now, when you check the bores, you sweep the gauge back and forth to find the lowest number and that is your clearance at that point in the bore.

Same process for crank and rod journals.

I find that I need a specific combination of measuring pin and spacer for 99.5/99.75mm bores, and the right combination of pin and spacer for the main journals.

I marked the pins and spacers for each, so I can easily set the gauge up in 10 seconds and be ready to use it when I want/need to.
Not trying to be a dick, but why would you even go through the trouble of purchasing a mic, and not have a calibration ring to know if your mic is/isn't out of calibration?

I mean we are dealing with tolerences here that are 1/3 (.001) the thickness of an average human hair(.003) sometimes 1/15th (.0002). What happens if your mic gets out of calibration by 1.5 thousanths (or more), and you end up with .003 clearance where it should be .0015-.0020? Or worse?

Like I said, I am not trying to be a dick but things do happen and tools get out of calibration.

I too have Mitutoyo Mics, and I am looking for a new more accurate bore gauge, but before I even think about measuring something I make DAMN sure my mic is on point.

Last edited by 2Fast4U1DAY; 09-25-2011 at 11:05 PM.
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Old 09-25-2011, 11:05 PM   #33
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He was saying that he didn't have the "ring" for the bore gauge because he zeros the bore gauge to the mic, and the mics have standards that come with them.

Thanks for taking the time on that post Team Scream, much appreciated.
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Old 09-25-2011, 11:16 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morrocco88
He was saying that he didn't have the "ring" for the bore gauge because he zeros the bore gauge to the mic, and the mics have standards that come with them.

Thanks for taking the time on that post Team Scream, much appreciated.
You are definately right. It must be getting late lol that's the second time I have misread critical information tonight. That is the proper way to do it though.
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Old 09-26-2011, 12:27 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASF Machine View Post
I'm assuming our context is head studs:
The last 6 boxes of 260-4701 & 260-4702 studs have all had a torque spec of 90 ft lbs with Ultra-torque.
Interesting, and yes, the context was head studs for that part of the conversation.
I wonder why the ARP rep would put me on hold, go across the building to the shop and grab a new box off the shelf (according to him) and then read the value to me over the phone?

I am absolutely NOT saying you are wrong, but I am 100% certain that is what the guy told me. In fact, I have it sitting here on a post it right next to my computer because I always write notes when I talk to people on the phone.

That is odd.... for sure! I will call them again tomorrow and ask for clarification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Fast4U1DAY View Post
Not trying to be a dick, but why would you even go through the trouble of purchasing a mic, and not have a calibration ring to know if your mic is/isn't out of calibration?
Hehe, I think it is really hard to calibrate a mic with a calibration "ring", did you mean calibrate the bore gauge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by morrocco88 View Post
He was saying that he didn't have the "ring" for the bore gauge because he zeros the bore gauge to the mic, and the mics have standards that come with them.

Thanks for taking the time on that post Team Scream, much appreciated.
No problem morrocco88.

Yeah it would be kind of useless to have a standard ring for a size that is completely random, unless you just wanted to see if the gauge was capable of reading that specific dimension for whatever reason.

There is a high end Ferrari shop about 3 blocks from my house, and they are good friends with my buddy who owns a job (machine) shop.
They have a few (ring) standards that I can run over and use if I ever drop my bore gauge, or have reason to suspect that it needs specific calibration.
Also, my buddy has a couple of very expensive sets of gauge blocks, and pins that I can test my mics against, and also qualify the standards that come with the mic's themselves

In the every day world of engine building, I am perfectly content just being able to measure the difference between a piston and bore, journal and rod bore, or journal and main bore.

For that, using the mic as a standard works really well, if you are very careful about how you do it.

Another reason I like the Fowler bore gauge is because it has a minimum hold function, which makes it easy to lock on to the minimum dimension once you have swept past it. I rarely use that function because I have developed a system with my bore gauge, but it is a really nice feature to have if you are a little ham fisted in the beginning.

Last edited by Team Scream; 09-26-2011 at 12:42 AM.
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Old 09-26-2011, 01:14 AM   #36
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Fantastic thread. Thanks for sharing your insights with us!
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Old 09-26-2011, 01:32 AM   #37
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Great read scream! Extremely useful info!

Last edited by mongoosaroo; 09-26-2011 at 02:01 AM.
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Old 09-26-2011, 01:36 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Scream

Interesting, and yes, the context was head studs for that part of the conversation.
I wonder why the ARP rep would put me on hold, go across the building to the shop and grab a new box off the shelf (according to him) and then read the value to me over the phone?

I am absolutely NOT saying you are wrong, but I am 100% certain that is what the guy told me. In fact, I have it sitting here on a post it right next to my computer because I always write notes when I talk to people on the phone.

That is odd.... for sure! I will call them again tomorrow and ask for clarification.

Hehe, I think it is really hard to calibrate a mic with a calibration "ring", did you mean calibrate the bore gauge?

No problem morrocco88.

Yeah it would be kind of useless to have a standard ring for a size that is completely random, unless you just wanted to see if the gauge was capable of reading that specific dimension for whatever reason.

There is a high end Ferrari shop about 3 blocks from my house, and they are good friends with my buddy who owns a job (machine) shop.
They have a few (ring) standards that I can run over and use if I ever drop my bore gauge, or have reason to suspect that it needs specific calibration.
Also, my buddy has a couple of very expensive sets of gauge blocks, and pins that I can test my mics against, and also qualify the standards that come with the mic's themselves

In the every day world of engine building, I am perfectly content just being able to measure the difference between a piston and bore, journal and rod bore, or journal and main bore.

For that, using the mic as a standard works really well, if you are very careful about how you do it.

Another reason I like the Fowler bore gauge is because it has a minimum hold function, which makes it easy to lock on to the minimum dimension once you have swept past it. I rarely use that function because I have developed a system with my bore gauge, but it is a really nice feature to have if you are a little ham fisted in the beginning.
Haha its late and I've been up since 3am. Sorry about that :-). I mix up my standards and rings lol

Maybe I need to check out a Fowler :-). My bore gauge is like 5 yrs old and it only goes to .0001. I would like to have something that goes to .00001 or .000001 ($$$$$$$). Just dont have that kind of scratch right now since I am trying to get my build together. Its either scratch for the build, or scratch for the tools. For the time being its going to be the build b/c I want that Full race kit ;-)
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Old 09-26-2011, 04:06 AM   #39
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good info!


My company and the company that builds my blocks recommend the use of ARP case bolts after the 500hp mark.

talking to the customer and recommending why they should run them and pay the additional machining costs is another story.

All I have to say is that I align hone all new case halves, finding that even the new EJ257 Cases coming out of Japan are usually pretty good with tolerances, but there are always 1-2 journals that are a thou to a thou and and half to 2 thou off and need the hone.

You should NOT have to run HX or (extra clearance) bearings if your block is machined properly.

I think that running the ARP case bolts are a great idea if your pushing your block but for a daily 300-400hp block the use of ARP case bolts is not worth the extra money ($350ish) for the bolts and the $150-$175 in machining.

Distortion is always going to be there.

Spend the extra money to have it done properly.

All my motors get balanced and blueprinted. here's a pic of the crank balance info:



here are a few other pics of stuff I get to play with:







Be on the look out next spring hopefully for some new rock solid made in America Subaru Gear sets. I'll be posting updates on those around mid-October, when I find out price points, but rest assure these will destroy anything else out there.

-Phil

Last edited by ronzogonzo; 09-26-2011 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 09-26-2011, 08:10 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronzogonzo
good info!

My company and the company that builds my blocks recommend the use of ARP case bolts after the 500hp mark.

talking to the customer and recommending why they should run them and pay the additional machining costs is another story.

All I have to say is that I align hone all new case halves, finding that even the new EJ257 Cases coming out of Japan are usually pretty good with tolerances, but there are always 1-2 journals that are a thou to a thou and and half to 2 thou off and need the hone.

You should NOT have to run HX or (extra clearance) bearings if your block is machined properly.

I think that running the ARP case bolts are a great idea if your pushing your block but for a daily 300-400hp block the use of ARP case bolts is not worth the extra money ($350ish) for the bolts and the $150-$175 in machining.

Distortion is always going to be there.

Spend the extra money to have it done properly.

All my motors get balanced and blueprinted. here's a pic of the crank balance info:

here are a few other pics of stuff I get to play with:

Be on the look out next spring hopefully for some new rock solid made in America Subaru Gear sets. I'll be posting updates on those around mid-October, when I find out price points, but rest assure these will destroy anything else out there.

-Phil
Id be interested in a rock solid gearset! I need something to hold 500WHP, 6K launches at the dragstrip, and FFS ;-).
Will they be available in 5 & 6 speed setups, or just one platform?
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Old 09-26-2011, 08:49 AM   #41
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rock solid sounds pretty good to me...
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Old 09-26-2011, 09:24 AM   #42
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I have found that the last many sets of ACL Mains I have felt with have had some variance within a set. IE, Measure all main bores on a properly torqued block w/no bearings observe ~.0002" max variation between bores. Install ALL STD size bearings in torqued case from the same pack and come up with .0015" variance. I feel with the latest crop of bearings it is absolutely necessary to have multiple bearing sets even with a good set of main bores.
I have noticed that the "skinny mains" IE #2/4 with no half groove for oiling tend to be a bit on the larger side all else being equal.

P.S. I do my measurements with Starret OD miss and a Sunnen Dial bore gauge.
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Old 09-26-2011, 10:58 AM   #43
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So...off the shelf motor building...not "good enough?"

Lol.
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Old 09-26-2011, 11:05 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Fast4U1DAY View Post
Id be interested in a rock solid gearset! I need something to hold 500WHP, 6K launches at the dragstrip, and FFS ;-).
Will they be available in 5 & 6 speed setups, or just one platform?
we are working on 2 different sets, 1-4 straight cut dogbox drag box

and a hybrid 1-5 road racing set, both have billet shift forks, same quality as sequential box above. but obviously using the OEM bell housing will cut a ton of cost. not having to make a billet housing. The 5 speed case does have issue with flex so we will be looking into reinforcing the cases to reduce flex, The company also makes custom diffs, steering racks, axles, and driveshafts so I think I have the driveline bases covered. As far as price goes, it's not going to be cheap but we're going to try and stay competitive with PPG, and Modena.

And it will be Made in America! so wait times will be miniscule.


sorry for the hijack Scream, carry on.

above sequential gear box was used at the Rolex Cup, Mid Ohio Sports Car Course Sept 17 2011

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Old 09-26-2011, 11:30 AM   #45
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TS: Curious and curiouser...
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Old 09-26-2011, 11:40 AM   #46
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And now you see why I like to deck between the case halves, align hone and do shuffle pins for serious builds...the only builds where I recommend ARP case studs

Two steps that Darton or LA doesn't mention doing when you sleeve

Thanks for taking your time to share with the community!
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Old 09-26-2011, 11:45 AM   #47
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So...off the shelf motor building...not "good enough?"

Lol.

just put the bearings in and torque it together?? whats wrong with that?
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Old 09-26-2011, 11:49 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
And now you see why I like to deck between the case halves, align hone and do shuffle pins for serious builds...the only builds where I recommend ARP case studs

Two steps that Darton or LA doesn't mention doing when you sleeve

Thanks for taking your time to share with the community!
M.I.D. Sleeved, that's how we do sleeved blocks. No pinning required.
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Old 09-26-2011, 12:07 PM   #49
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So you guys have your own custom MID sleeves now? I know Darton had done them and abandoned the testing for good reason.

By the way, pinning doesn't pertain to sleeving really...
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Old 09-26-2011, 12:34 PM   #50
Team Scream
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Good info guys,

Those gear sets look LOUD - straight cut dog box whine is awesome!

So lets get down to some specifics. HomemadeWRX, ASF and ronzo? are you willing to share some data?

If you measure the bearings with the case torqued to OEM spec with OEM case bolts can you PLEASE post up what you consider "allowable" run out?

Specifically, if you measure the bearing 90* from the split you get (x), if you measure approx 1" on either side of that you get (y) and (z).

What I am finding so far is that when I measure @ or near the split I see .004 or .005.

Now I know the numbers at the split are going to be all over the place because it is a split bearing design. It's the run out 45* from the center that I am wondering about.

What do you guys consider allowable on a 400hp build, and how do you deal with it if it falls outside of your "allowable" limits???


Finally, what logic do you use to determine what is "allowable" on a horizontally opposed 4 ?

The pic below illustrates what I am talking about for those trying to follow along.

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