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Old 09-26-2011, 01:22 PM   #51
Mecanic07
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Thanks Team Screem for sharing. The more I learn, the more I know nothing...lol
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Old 09-26-2011, 01:23 PM   #52
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Well as I discovered the distortion that you had back in 07 with my personal ARP kit, I started running all my blocks through a full blue-print. It's added cost that keeps sales numbers down

If you'd like and if I have time, I have a batch of blocks going off for sleeving. I could grab one before and after numbers. Though the align hone will be for the ARP bolts. So if I were to do it, I'd simply be taking the ARP torque spec and decreasing it's torque spec to see how much 'twist' is in the block.

I still wonder how much of a roll ovaling should play in an EJ engines main bearings. For this reason I've been debating on reducing the tq spec prior to honing the mains to keep some more tq induced ovaling in the mains....I state this having not had issues with the mains but more in concern of the mains open area to bleed pressure prior to oiling the rods.

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 09-26-2011 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 09-26-2011, 01:26 PM   #53
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Damn good read. These procedures are what I want done when my motor gets built (coming from an ex machinist). Just like the old muscle guys motors. Done right to get r done, no cut corners. Take your time using the right tools and patience goes a long way. Thumbs up!
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Old 09-26-2011, 01:35 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
So you guys have your own custom MID sleeves now? I know Darton had done them and abandoned the testing for good reason.

By the way, pinning doesn't pertain to sleeving really...
theres two different ways I've seen pinning, where you use pins to "lock" the sleeve into place, and basically dowels on the case halves.

AES designs everything in house. All it is, is a integrated deck, making a semi closed deck to a closed deck by pressing in the AES Custom designed sleeve. Darton has M.I.D. Sleeves just not for Subaru. We can design any displacement M.I.D. wet sleeve.

Which I'm sure you know what that is so I'm not going to go into it.

-Phil
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Old 09-26-2011, 01:37 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
Well as I discovered the distortion that you had back in 07 with my personal ARP kit, I started running all my blocks through a full blue-print. It's added cost that keeps sales numbers down

If you'd like and if I have time, I have a batch of blocks going off for sleeving. I could grab one before and after numbers. Though the align hone will be for the ARP bolts. So if I were to do it, I'd simply be taking the ARP torque spec and decreasing it's torque spec to see how much 'twist' is in the block.

I still wonder how much of a roll ovaling should play in an EJ engines main bearings. For this reason I've been debating on reducing the tq spec prior to honing the mains to keep some more tq induced ovaling in the mains....I state this having not had issues with the mains but more in concern of the mains open area to bleed pressure prior to oiling the rods.

/\ THIS!!!!!! (the part in bold)

That is exactly what I want to know about Micah,
I know that ovaling is going to be there no matter what you do. All split style bearings have it.

My question (specifically) is how much is "ok" and how much is too much.

These are questions I do NOT know the answer to when it comes to EJ's.

I think this would be more of an issue on the main that shares oil paths with 2 separate journals for the rods, and not so much of an issue on the others, but still at the end of the day, with volumes of posts regarding oil pressures on higher RPM builds, I am trying to find the water mark.

Can you PM me with a range that you consider "acceptable" when you blueprint an engine? I understand if this is a "trade" secret and you don't want to share, but I promise you, I will never be in competition for your business.

I simply do not have the time in my life to build engines for other people.

From one GC (widebody) lover to another, I need some direction here brother.
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Old 09-26-2011, 01:38 PM   #56
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yeah, Darton did make a Subie MID sleeve but had issues with how much material was left at the base of the block because it didn't have an intergrated deck to help support/isolate the sleeve (dumb design). So they abonded it years ago.

I think I may need to shoot you a message for more info on your sleeves.

I'm talking of shuffle pinning the mains and not 'staking' the sleeves

Back to case bolts!
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Old 09-26-2011, 01:44 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Scream View Post
/\ THIS!!!!!! (the part in bold)

That is exactly what I want to know about Micah,
I know that ovaling is going to be there no matter what you do. All split style bearings have it.

My question (specifically) is how much is "ok" and how much is too much.

These are questions I do NOT know the answer to when it comes to EJ's.

I think this would be more of an issue on the main that shares oil paths with 2 separate journals for the rods, and not so much of an issue on the others, but still at the end of the day, with volumes of posts regarding oil pressures on higher RPM builds, I am trying to find the water mark.
Bingo

2,4 share the same main for oil, one of the crank guys that we work with at work had suggested sinking a plug in one of the journals to increase flow but all that is going to do is increase pressure which he agreed to as well. Oil is still going to go the path of least resistance. So by plugging a journal hole that would be bad!

Billet crank, but that's a whole new subject.
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Old 09-26-2011, 01:45 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
I'm talking of shuffle pinning the mains and not 'staking' the sleeves

Back to case bolts!
Its interesting you bring this up, we have been talking about doing this to a few customer blocks. However I wanted to try it out in my car first. As soon as we have some more free time I'll be building another test engine for me, I'm not a big fan of trial and error on customers engines.
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Old 09-26-2011, 02:10 PM   #59
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Lucky me, I have the day off today.
I am going to split the case halves (again) to get a baseline on teh journals with no bearings shells in place.

Ultimately after reviewing the data I have gathered so far, it appears Dom is on to something by using 60 ft/lbs as a final torque value.
If you look at the numbers in the first post regarding the 60 ft/lb test, the numbers are actually not that bad.

It may be that with some creative bearing "musical chairs", and polishing the backside of (tight) bearing shells, I can bring this thing in and still take advantage of the ARP bolts.

I really need to see if the bearings are distorting, or the cases are distorting, or a combination of the two.

So far, that is the only thing left on the table with regards to this particular set of case halves.

Homemade, did you miss my question ? /\ a couple posts up?
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Old 09-26-2011, 02:33 PM   #60
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When my EJ22T was fitted with the ARP case bolts, ONE halve of the block was deck and then bolted down, lastly line honed the mains. Yet when torqued down to APR's spec #5 was tight to where the crank would not spin freely. clearance was .001" too tight and I just bought a set of HX bearings so I can fit the looser #5 in. That all worked out and they where within factory spec for mains and the engine is still running now; 15k miles.
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Old 09-26-2011, 03:12 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Scream View Post
Can you PM me with a range that you consider "acceptable" when you blueprint an engine? I understand if this is a "trade" secret and you don't want to share, but I promise you, I will never be in competition for your business.

I simply do not have the time in my life to build engines for other people.
Missed this post earlier as you must have been posting it while I was replying to one above yours. see time stamps. When I get some time I'll look em up and shoot them over.
Problem is that I only have time between 7:30-4
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronzogonzo View Post
2,4 share the same main for oil
You ought to clarify that they shair the same main gallery but rods #2 and #3 share the same main journal, which I believe is we were talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by B.R.E.D View Post
I'm not a big fan of trial and error on customers engines.
Me either. That's what prototypes and NDAs are for
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Old 09-26-2011, 03:14 PM   #62
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/\ Nice Fuji ! Thanks for that info brother!

Ok does anyone know what the main bore dimension should be?

I am coming up with somewhere between 2.5185 and 2.5200

This is an arbitrary number that I attempted to measure with a set of calipers to get close enough to set my bore gauge up with the right pin.

I see nothing in the FSM that indicates what that # should be.

None the less, if I use a number in the middle (2.5190") what I found was astounding to me.

Temp in the garage is 75*f
ARP bolts torqued to 60 ft/lbs
No bearings in place.

Using 2.5190" as the standard which my gauge was set at, all bores are within .0008, with the exception of #1 which was .001 UNDER size.

That means (to me) that we have an inconsistency with bearing shells, more so than the case twisting up as much as it would appear from earlier experiments (with the bearings in place).

Armed with this information, I would gather that I can try a couple of things.

(A) mix and match bearings to try and achieve consistent oil clearances across all 5 journals.
(B) commit the bearings to a position, and then start polishing the back sides of tight bearings to achieve consistent oil clearances across all 5 journals.

I am thinking about running over to the dealership to pick up a set of standard OEM main bearings to see if the same inconsistency exists.

I am going to scrutinize the data I have in hand already and start making a plan to massage bearings if that proves to be the best plan of attack.

Thoughts?
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Old 09-26-2011, 03:51 PM   #63
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Are you using ACL bearings for this test? They've been having questionable tolerance since the financial/bankrputcy woes started.

I had thought of that (simply bearing consistancy) as a variable while reading your posts.

I'd retest but without bearings. Yes it will suck to do

I've honestly been thinking about ditching ACL's as of recent as much like Fuji pointed out, I keep an open pack of coated standard and coated HX bearings for my 'massaging' steps.
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Old 09-26-2011, 04:07 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
Are you using ACL bearings for this test? They've been having questionable tolerance since the financial/bankrputcy woes started.

I had thought of that (simply bearing consistancy) as a variable while reading your posts.

I'd retest but without bearings. Yes it will suck to do .
Yes, ACL std race series bearings (non HX).

Just did the test without bearings, and the results are in the post just above yours /\ . No specific numbers, but the conclusion I draw is that it appears the bearings are distorting much more than the case halves are under the increased clamping load of the ARP bolts.

This makes me wonder if some careful massaging of the bearings would bring it back around, or if the better solution is to go with OEM bearings.

I am starting to think that the ARP bolts are not as bad as I initially thought.

I am trying to get motivated to make the 30 minute drive to the dealership for a set of OEM bearings. I just dont want to pay stealership prices.
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Old 09-26-2011, 04:18 PM   #65
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I've been thinking about checking out Clevites, because OEM bearings are $$$ even more so once you send them to Calico or WPC
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Old 09-26-2011, 04:20 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FuJi K View Post
When my EJ22T was fitted with the ARP case bolts, ONE halve of the block was deck and then bolted down, lastly line honed the mains. Yet when torqued down to APR's spec #5 was tight to where the crank would not spin freely. clearance was .001" too tight and I just bought a set of HX bearings so I can fit the looser #5 in. That all worked out and they where within factory spec for mains and the engine is still running now; 15k miles.

Same thing happened to me on my 2.5 build w/ARP's. I actually had to do some "massaging" to get the clearance I needed. Of course I didn't feel 100% comfortable with it. But it's my deal and I'll take the consequences. Of course that's been almost 1-1/2 years ago and over 8k miles. And those darn ACL bearing were on so much back order.

Anyone used King bearings?
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Old 09-26-2011, 04:35 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
I've been thinking about checking out Clevites, because OEM bearings are $$$ even more so once you send them to Calico or WPC

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1871153

Quote:
Originally Posted by SW00P_G View Post
Anyone used King bearings?
King bearings has been around for a LONG time, and they are actually some of the best bearings out there in the circle track world.
Unfortunately for Subaru, they only offer the standard bearing which is an all aluminum variant.

King bearings are manufactured in Israel. They started out as a military contract supplier and then ventured in to civilian use back in the late 70's early 80's

The King XP line is well thought of by some of my buddies that are still big into sprint car V8 stuff (the go fast sideways in the dirt variety).
There was talk of them coming out with an XP (tri-metal) race bearing for Subaru. Not sure if that has happened yet.

Last edited by Team Scream; 09-26-2011 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 09-26-2011, 07:01 PM   #68
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The new king bearing was supposed to come out in April. Never happened an there is still no eta
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Old 09-26-2011, 08:04 PM   #69
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Ok, man this is an exercise in dedication, if nothing else.

I have had these case halves together and apart about 9 times now trying to get a handle on this. I hope you guys appreciate it

Here are the latest findings:

Temp: 73*f
I checked the crank again to confirm dimensions (no change).
Split the cases again, removed the bearings one at a time and marked them for the location they were in.

Put the bearings back in, but in the opposite case half (from where they were).

Torqued everything back together using the ARP bolts @ 60 (10mm) and 20 (8mm) ft/lbs (same procedure as every other test).

I am completely blown away at my findings. (oil clearance shown).

#5 .00015
#4 .00018
#3 .00135
#2 .00135
#1 .00065

I am confident I can massage the back side of the #5 and #1 bearing shells to get closer to .0014 which is where i want to be.

The #4 bearing being a few tenths over is a non issue for this build since I am not going for anything over 450whp (rotated 3076).

I will start the process of locking (marking) the bearings to a slot, and then massaging the backside of the 2 bearings in question and put it back together one more time to confirm (assuming I hit the mark).

Interestingly, before I split the cases this time around, I scrutinized the main bores with no bearings in place, and the #1 bore was the smallest (tightest) of them all followed closely by the #5 bore.

In this case, I will not risk a shoddy align hone because it is all really close to where it needs to be. Instead, I feel that sneaking up on it, by removing very small amounts of the rear of each (offending) bearing shell, I can get there.

So, with all of that said, I should edit the first post to remove the incorrect assumption that the ARP bolts push the case halves/main webs around to the point of no return.

At least in this example, I think I have shown that the ACL bearings may not like the increased clamping load, but the main bores do not seem to be pushed out of round by any significant amount @ 60 ft/lbs of torque.

Really this makes me want to experiment with crush by removing minute amounts of material from the edges of the bearings, but that is not something I want to experiment with on this particular set of cases.

I am now more worried about thread fatigue given the number of times I have split and re-torqued the cases at this point.

I think I am going to make this set up work, and then, on the next build if the results of the initial inspection are similar, I will perhaps try reducing crush slightly to see what the effect is.

If any of you have reduced crush, and have some results you want to share, I am all ears!

I removed portions of the first post. I initially drew some conclusions that I discovered through trial, error and careful measurement that were NOT truth. At this point, I cannot say with conviction that ARP case bolts are more trouble that they are worth. What I can say is that in MY particular situation with THIS engine, the combination of ARP case bolts torqued to ARP spec combined with ACL race bearings produced less than favorable results. My inclination at this point is that the ACL bearings may in fact be more to blame for the distortions than the ARP bolts.

Last edited by Team Scream; 09-26-2011 at 08:24 PM.
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Old 09-26-2011, 08:16 PM   #70
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What do you use to polish the back end of bearings?
Is this by hand?
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Old 09-26-2011, 08:30 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by reid-o View Post
What do you use to polish the back end of bearings?
Is this by hand?
Yep, rubber gloves (for grip), 400 grit WET sandpaper, and remove HALF of the total from each shell ONLY in the center (crown) portion of the back side of the bearing shell. Finish the sanding with a pattern that is PERPINDICULAR to the rotation of the crank.

You dont want to provide "rails" (sanding scratches) that would promote the bearing spinning in it's saddle. By sanding across the back side, you are leaving scratches that will resist slippage.

You dont want to remove material from the areas near the split line, the bearing is already oversized at those sections anyway (most of the time).

Last edited by Team Scream; 09-26-2011 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 09-26-2011, 08:55 PM   #72
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I just want to thank you for being anal retentive and taking all of the time to excecute this. It will lend a huge hand in my up coming EJ build.
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Old 09-26-2011, 10:27 PM   #73
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threads like this are the only reason i keep my membership here
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Old 09-26-2011, 11:27 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Scream View Post
I am now more worried about thread fatigue given the number of times I have split and re-torqued the cases at this point.
I was worried as well! The old specs called for 70ft lbs. I undid and redid the bolts like 7-times and I dunno how many times the machine shop did it. I was like... the older case bolts called for around 38ft lbs? and these calls for almost twice that! I am expecting it to hold up as well on the next rebuild though; this winter
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:25 AM   #75
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i have some shortblocks i'm willing to donate for experimenting.

again, thank you guys for contributing to our community.
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