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Old 03-20-2014, 10:15 PM   #1
luka
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Default Rob's Tune - Z32 - Any Progress?

Hey guys,

Haven't seen anything about this in a while, does anyone know if there has been any progress? the stock MAF just isn't cutting it anymore and I really don't want to dish out ~$1000 for a E-mang
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Old 03-21-2014, 01:18 AM   #2
subaru__styles
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why not go ESL daughter board and ditch the maf?
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Old 03-21-2014, 02:41 PM   #3
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ESL + Dongle is pretty much $1000 in Canada Then the tune on top of that

I would love to do away with the MAF, that would be ideal but I can't justify the price.
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Old 03-21-2014, 04:30 PM   #4
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When I last contacted them, it was $650 shipped to where I am.
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Old 03-21-2014, 07:30 PM   #5
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Check this out. My buddy wrote this up. Maf to speed density.

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/cobb-acc...rt-finish.html
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Old 03-23-2014, 02:44 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luka View Post
ESL + Dongle is pretty much $1000 in Canada
why? you can buy from them direct and with the conversion rate, it's around $500
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Old 03-23-2014, 06:00 PM   #7
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Rob does not have any tunes for a Z32 MAF yet. I know, because I just ordered one from him a week ago. Does anybody know how to pull a map off of an Apexi Power FC? If so, the Apexi Power FC can run a table for either the stock JECS/Autecs Green Label MAF or the Nissan Z32 MAF. I guess if somebody had a Datalogit, they might be able to do this. Also, can't you eliminate the MAF with a MAFT-Pro?
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Old 03-24-2014, 02:25 AM   #8
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The factory ran the Group A Legacy RS for '92/'93 without MAF using a management based on a stock ECU. If one would use a suitable pressure sensor then a tune could be made for the stock ECU without MAF, right?
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Old 03-24-2014, 06:42 AM   #9
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Old 03-24-2014, 03:04 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnix View Post
The factory ran the Group A Legacy RS for '92/'93 without MAF using a management based on a stock ECU. If one would use a suitable pressure sensor then a tune could be made for the stock ECU without MAF, right?
yeah ESL uses a manifold sensor hooked up through the stock MAF wirring to run a speed density tune
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Old 03-24-2014, 07:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaabyDaabyDaa View Post
Rob does not have any tunes for a Z32 MAF yet. I know, because I just ordered one from him a week ago. Does anybody know how to pull a map off of an Apexi Power FC? If so, the Apexi Power FC can run a table for either the stock JECS/Autecs Green Label MAF or the Nissan Z32 MAF. I guess if somebody had a Datalogit, they might be able to do this. Also, can't you eliminate the MAF with a MAFT-Pro?
If Rob figures out the Z32, I'd be a customer. I'd like another 20 whp or so. I don't think I'd want to push it much past 300-310 and risk the engine.

I'm fairly sure the power FC uses different hardware and a power FC map would be compatible with a stock ECU.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnix View Post
The factory ran the Group A Legacy RS for '92/'93 without MAF using a management based on a stock ECU. If one would use a suitable pressure sensor then a tune could be made for the stock ECU without MAF, right?
I'm interested in this. But finding a 20 year old rally car ecu to pull the rom off could prove difficult.
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Old 03-25-2014, 01:10 PM   #12
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There has been good progress made, but the effort has been shelved for a bit. It is more complicated than just changing a MAF table unfortunately. Maybe it is time to pull it back off of the shelf and finish it up...

If one was adventurous, they could see how far they could push things with the stock MAF and the yellow injectors. It would be a matter of logging AFRs and monitoring MAF voltage. When the MAF hits its voltage limit (5.12v, not 5.00v) it essentially uses fueling and timing from the last cells of the load column. The fuel ratio targets should be in the healthy 10.8-11.2 range at that point. If you push more air through without the ability to measure it, the AFR will slowly lean out. If you watch your AFRs carefully enough you could up the boost until you were at the highest AFR you are comfortable with and call it a day. The only tricky part is that the ECU has a lot of internal limit values that may or may not cause undesirable effects. I modify two or three of the important ones, but there could be more lurking in the code.

I error on the side of safety, so I like to leave plenty of guardband. The real question is at what power level will the balance of power/reliability tip the wrong way for the ej20g. My motor has been perfectly happy at ~350 CHP for several years as both a DD and RallyX warrior.

As to switching over to MAFless, personally I would choose the MAF system every time over a speed density setup. I don't get the

-Rob
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Old 03-25-2014, 04:33 PM   #13
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I've got a closed deck EJ20G I've blown 3 times (cracked #4 ringland each time) using yellow injectors @ 18psi with your tune. It only started once I got my front mount. Using the TMIC everything ran fine at 18psi. I also have a meth kit. So your tune is at it's limit

My guess is the front mount made things dense enough to reach the max and start leaning out. Damn that IACV!

The reason I want to go MAFless is because the car is (now) build like a tank with all the support mods, the Achilles Heel is that stupid MAF.

Going on the ESL site it's 544 CAD for the DB and 138 for the dongle + shipping. And apologies for my ignorance but, can I not use the stock MAP/IAT sensors? or would I have to go after market?
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Old 03-25-2014, 05:48 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luka View Post
I've got a closed deck EJ20G I've blown 3 times (cracked #4 ringland each time) using yellow injectors @ 18psi with your tune. It only started once I got my front mount. Using the TMIC everything ran fine at 18psi. I also have a meth kit. So your tune is at it's limit

My guess is the front mount made things dense enough to reach the max and start leaning out. Damn that IACV!
Getting close to the limits, yes, but not to where you suggest a FMIC would tip the balance to a blown motor. You also forgot to mention that you are running a bigger turbo at 18psi That will run you past the MAF limit much quicker. The meth injection complicates things further as you can not get a real AFR reading.

A general commentary on things to look out for that can lead to broken motors; air leaks post MAF (especially pre-turbo) are common overlooked problems that will throw the AFR targets out the window. HEREis a good article on the topic. Another area people like to skimp on is cleaning and flow testing of used injectors. When I got my front clip I sent in the stock injectors and one of them had a spray pattern listed as "dripping" !! That could have ended badly.

I am not saying these were your issues, but common things I see. A bigger MAF and more airflow will exacerbate these problems and make the consequences much more catastrophic.

-Rob
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Old 03-25-2014, 07:29 PM   #15
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I suspected both of those. I had my injectors flowed (they were within spec) / did a full leakdown after the first blow. And yes, turbo is bigger
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Old 03-26-2014, 01:52 AM   #16
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Jumping into this late but I did help a guy get the Z32 MAF scaling into an EJ20G ROM (which I can share, PM me). His report was that it worked fine for him.

Rob, why shouldn't just changing the MAF scaling work? I have personally set up and use the Subaru Orange label MAF, which I hear is close to the flow measurement capacity of the Z32 MAF. Works like a charm. All I had to do was set up the MAF scaling and then adjust the injector constant (since injectors were changed) and it was spot on from there.

Note: The above suggestion is if you're willing to do a bit of tweaking of the map here and there. I wouldn't do the above and just drive away, it would at least require a wideband to confirm that all load/rpm regions have the correct AFR. The load WILL change if you do this, so you need to be ready to rescale/shift cell values around.

Last edited by pmugabi; 03-26-2014 at 01:55 AM. Reason: Added caveat about change in load value
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Old 03-26-2014, 02:13 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmugabi View Post
Jumping into this late but I did help a guy get the Z32 MAF scaling into an EJ20G ROM (which I can share, PM me). His report was that it worked fine for him.

Rob, why shouldn't just changing the MAF scaling work? I have personally set up and use the Subaru Orange label MAF, which I hear is close to the flow measurement capacity of the Z32 MAF. Works like a charm. All I had to do was set up the MAF scaling and then adjust the injector constant (since injectors were changed) and it was spot on from there.

Note: The above suggestion is if you're willing to do a bit of tweaking of the map here and there. I wouldn't do the above and just drive away, it would at least require a wideband to confirm that all load/rpm regions have the correct AFR. The load WILL change if you do this, so you need to be ready to rescale/shift cell values around.
Hi Paul,

Yes that is the gist of it. Manipulating the MAF table and main scalar will change the overall calculated load value. This affects fuel/ignition table columns as well as all other load referenced tables and flags.

-Rob
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:23 AM   #18
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Rob, I would be very interested in this Z32 MAF setup with 550cc injectors for my personal car (full CB block with forged pistons and rods). What time frame are 'we' looking at?
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Old 03-26-2014, 01:57 PM   #19
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Hi Marnix. It is hard to say. Feel free to email me to discuss further.

The good news is that the z32 MAF is capable of measuring up to ~450 g/sec whereas the stock ej20G MAF is good for about 270 g/sec.

I will also say that whatever I come up with will require the exact same intake setup, i.e. the Apexi kit.

-Rob
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Old 03-26-2014, 02:17 PM   #20
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include me include me!

I'm dying for this setup. I will even pre-order
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Old 03-26-2014, 02:30 PM   #21
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Robtune is not a vendor on Nasioc, so any discussions on ordering or whatnot has to be handled "off forum". Otherwise, I am happy to answer more general questions.
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Old 03-26-2014, 02:57 PM   #22
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hi guys

the issues with the z32 maf arise with the issues that we have no good way of properly changing injector scaling and latency. for instance, rob modifies the fueling cells to match real world afr, which works, but just gets us by.

ive got a free rom for those who want to use 850s and a z32 on corn. cold crank is terrible, and because of the inability to change latency, ltft will cycle the car between 13.5-14.5 which is too rich for my taste at 45* cruise.

but, 20psi on a stock maf and 550s on the stock small 16g is the limit of the rod bolts anyway. but, that didnt stop me from trapping 114.5mph and 12.35 et. thats a 11 second time.( and 300-330whp)

Last edited by eg33GC; 03-26-2014 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 03-27-2014, 04:13 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subaru__styles View Post
why not go ESL daughter board and ditch the maf?
Can you confirm if the ESL can use the stock IAT/MAP sensors or would I have to go after marketing like the write up Brother EddieJ. posted? My understanding is that the IAT is in the MAF which I'm ok keeping as it's not the MAF itself that is the issue, it's the max it's able to meter.

Thanks,
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Old 03-27-2014, 06:42 PM   #24
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Rob. I would be glad to be your guinea pig on the Z32 MAF tune. I'm the guy who ordered one for a 1993 Subaru Legacy Sport Sedan Auto two weeks ago. I have a turbo that is capable of maxing out the JECS MAF, and have an exhaust housing I can swap onto it to have it go even further beyond. I also have an Apexi Power FC that I'd be willing to ship to you to see if you can pull any useful data off of.
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Old 04-17-2014, 03:47 AM   #25
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Any news on this? Very interested to see how this comes along
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