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Old 07-07-2018, 03:51 PM   #26
mrsaturn7085
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Originally Posted by Bimmubishi View Post
I agree with a lot of what you're saying but not that there was tech in earlier premium models like the 22b which still had a 5 speed yet commanded 40+k new in 1998.
The 22B did get a lot of stuff under the skin - 2.2 liter motor, multi-plate clutch, better turbo, one-off body panels and wing, etc. in addition to the things that the RA is getting:

Bilstein suspension
Special wheels
Bigger brakes (bigger than other CURRENT models, at the time)

The 6MT didn't exist yet, so the 5MT was the best they could do... but the gearing was changed in the export models to the UK as Prodrive got to customize them before sale.

We should also set aside the fact that the 22B clutch had an engineering defect and most running 22B cars these days are using a single-plate Exedy replacement. Hang the old dual-plate purple anodized clutch on the wall and make it into a clock, or something.

All that said, it's a good analogy as the JDM Type RA (which was the model pulled off the line to convert into the 22B) was about $28k, at the time - $12k difference in that case, as well. You can take that with a grain of salt as reports on the original price of the 22B are frankly, all over the place. Australian 22B cars went for about twice the price of the base model, and the European (Prodrive-modified) exports up to three times the price. The difference of course, was in these export markets you were talking about 16-25 cars per region... not the ~450 sold in Japan.

All that said, most of the 22B cars were sold to sensible enough individuals that they were left relatively stock. Half the people I see talking about the 2018 RA are talking about putting a better exhaust on the car, 'improving' the suspension, or 'seeing what the motor can handle'.

Good luck with that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmubishi View Post
The M6 is still a weird example. BMW only produced 4000 cars and the engines were essentially group-A hardware which wasn't cheap to begin with. The E24 chassis had a long run though so I get you there but the tech carried over to later models to some degree and the price was likely justified given that the car was an M1 derivative and VIP car.
It is a unique example for many reasons, but one of which is certainly the fact that the model was allowed to become stale over multiple years... manufacturers just don't do this normally!

I had at one time the opportunity to pick one up for about $36k with 15k miles on it. I worked with an engineer that was a former parts counter guy at BMW when they were brand new and he told me if I blew the engine (as many early owners did when they modified them), it would set me back twice what the used car cost. While I didn't plan to modify the thing... the idea scared me enough to walk away.

...that, and you know, iDrive... which is almost reason enough to walk away from a BMW.

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Originally Posted by Bimmubishi View Post
Subaru also had forged pistons in the 1993/4 Sti Version. I know which have them and which don't, my point was only that for 50k this car should have them too. (and I think you agree!)
I do agree, though for the price, I think it needs a totally different engine.

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Originally Posted by Bimmubishi View Post
I agree with you that the RA isn't worth an extra 12k just for the record. I think an argument can be made that the car will be worth something as a collector's item down the road but it's unlikely. The carbon roof is such childish costume jewelry. The spoiler too.
Yeah - the roof is more-or-less just playing catch-up with all the Euro stuff that has had it available (and standard) for years. Coincidentally, I think the M6 was one of the first mass-produced cars that had one, if I recall correctly.

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Originally Posted by Titter View Post
muricains will pay a premium for exclusivity. SoA could have done literally nothing except add an RA badge, jack the price $12k, and they still would have sold all 500 units.

they need to show their neighbours that the are doing better than them... objectively
/agree - and I think we're all agreeing that we drew the short stick in the USA for this limited model so I'll leave one last controversial thought:

If Subaru of America would have just stuffed the full current-era JDM Spec C drive- and powertrain into the limited RA model, that is, the dual-AVCS EJ207, 06-07 Spec C gearing, and 06+ DCCD, I would have been perfectly happy with the price... if for no other reason than to have the EJ207 in the USDM parts system after 2+ decades. That would have been a seriously fun car, smooth engine, high redline, and short-ratio gearing to still make it pull quickly. You would have something unique with that, even if it was the norm. in all other markets.

Sadly, US emissions laws are likely what would keep the engine out of the country. I don't exactly know what it is, but I suspect the small displacement is likely being factored into emissions limits. One of the most interesting things I saw in a Japanese engine magazine at one time was a pair of charts showing the output over displacement of all Japanese sports car motors in production at the time. This chart included a lot of BIG motors (for JDM marques) like the GT-R motor and the big Lexus 4.0+ liter stuff. Guess which motor peaked all the charts? The dual-AVCS EJ207 - I think trailing behind it was the 4B11T in the Evo X. That said, small displacement (likely a factor in limits) + highest per/liter output (fuel hungry) + boxer layout (fuel hungrier) probably doesn't add up to a green engine.
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Last edited by mrsaturn7085; 07-07-2018 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 07-07-2018, 06:03 PM   #27
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A good point you made that could be easily missed is that (using the 22b again as an example) the exclusive body work that isn't easily reproduced makes a car special. Any longtime Subaru enthusiast views the engine almost as a disposable item so making it *sort of*special with slightly different cast pistons is really not a selling point when there are 1000 people in their garages building more robust engines for themselves. I think special bodywork would have gone a long way on this one, plus gearing. The brakes are a nice touch.

I don't consider the little bolt on wing to be special bodywork.

I also don't consider the 22b's 2.2 liter engine to be high tech in the same way we were talking about active suspension. It costs slightly more because it's low production but not because it's especially high tech.
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Old 07-07-2018, 07:00 PM   #28
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hyundai and mitsubishi both have 2.0L in the usdm that push 300hp (genesis is 296 and evo is 303) and meet emissions standards. its the marketing dept that is keeping the ej207 out of the states. muricains like bigger numbers and think a 2.5 will be better no matter what.

there is no other explanation i can think of otherwise. theres no reason subaru cant make 300hp from a 2.0L, meet emissions laws, and sell it in the states.
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Old 07-07-2018, 07:20 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Titter View Post
hyundai and mitsubishi both have 2.0L in the usdm that push 300hp (genesis is 296 and evo is 303) and meet emissions standards. its the marketing dept that is keeping the ej207 out of the states. muricains like bigger numbers and think a 2.5 will be better no matter what.

there is no other explanation i can think of otherwise. theres no reason subaru cant make 300hp from a 2.0L, meet emissions laws, and sell it in the states.
Well... there is the cylinder geometry to consider. I don't know the full intricacies of the emissions testing, but I do know it takes more fuel to make ~300 hp in a flat motor than it does in an upright motor of equal displacement. The unburnt fuel could definitely be a factor. That said, I *think* emissions regulations center around idle and cruise conditions rather than WOT.

Hard to say... but it has always seemed odd to me that the EJ207 never made it here in 2+ decades.
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Old 07-25-2018, 11:50 AM   #30
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First off, I'm talking pre-dealer mark-up. The MSRP of the RA is $12k over the base STI. $12,000. That's a down payment on a good house in literally all but the highest priced areas of the USA.

LOL where in the USA is a $60k house normal? If you can't put 20% down you can't afford the house.
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Old 07-25-2018, 11:58 AM   #31
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LOL where in the USA is a $60k house normal? If you can't put 20% down you can't afford the house.
Who the heck puts 20% down these days. 3% use the rest for big tv and tools
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Old 07-25-2018, 12:41 PM   #32
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Who the heck puts 20% down these days. 3% use the rest for big tv and tools
I'd say 5% down on a starter home is fairly common, especially in larger cities where property values are increasing so fast that the average person couldn't save 20% in a reasonable time. If you make good decisions on location and the home itself, you'll have 20% equity in 2-3 years anyhow (again, larger cities). Rural areas or small towns are a totally different story, but the sooner you get into a home the better unless you enjoy throwing rental money down the toilet.

Regarding 20% down and affordability - the amount down doesn't determine the affordability, the borrower does (banks will happily loan enough to take you well outside your means, however). Just because you CAN afford to put more down doesn't mean you should. If you could put down 10% at 5.5% or 8.5% down at 4.5%, I think it's pretty obvious you'd buy down the rate unless you planned to flip the place in under ~5 years; this becomes a little more difficult when you're looking at down-payments below 20% due to PMI, but if the area is appreciating fast enough to have PMI drop-off in just 2-3 years, the reduced down-payment and rate buy-down makes more sense, financially.

In areas like this, it is much more likely to see 20% down-payments on a second home, even after only ~5 years given the equity gained in the first home. Of course there's always the possibility that the market falls out in 5 years and everyone is screwed...

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Old 07-26-2018, 08:38 AM   #33
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^Well, that escalated quickly....
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Old 07-26-2018, 01:16 PM   #34
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^Well, that escalated quickly....
Just a little off-topic insight... I guess what I said could be summed up as 'you can't make blanket statements about real estate without considering area, among other details'. Taking investment advice from someone in a thread filled with people willing to drop $50k or more on a Subaru probably isn't the best idea anyhow.
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Old 07-26-2018, 02:44 PM   #35
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Taking investment advice from someone in a thread filled with people willing to drop $50k or more on a Subaru probably isn't the best idea anyhow.
That's probably good advice for any investment decision, lol
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Old 11-02-2018, 04:53 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by subydude View Post
From the literature of the 2019 STi, it appears it's getting the same block and pistons as the RA so there should be a lot more examples available for reliability.
Is this true? I just picked up a 2019 STI....does this mean my car has the RA stronger pistons???
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Old 11-03-2018, 07:02 PM   #37
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So what is the consensus about the power level the RA block can reliably handle? 350-360 hp, same as a regular STI short block?
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Old 11-04-2018, 05:03 PM   #38
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So what is the consensus about the power level the RA block can reliably handle? 350-360 hp, same as a regular STI short block?
The stock STI block can go well above 350 hp unless you're talking about wheel hp...

Having just returned from SEMA, I'm actually wondering how much data we're going to see on the new RA pistons... Subaru aftermarket presence at the show was abysmal (with the exception of the FA20 stuff), likely because Subaru really hasn't changed the EJ257 motor significantly in a decades (since the dual AVCS debut in 2008). Subaru/STI didn't even have a booth at SEMA, btw... while Honda and Toyota has incredibly large, motorsport-centric displays - definitely a bit of a buzz-kill.

Then you've gotta consider - all of Subaru's race cars used for marketing (Super GT, record-attempt, Isle of Man, etc.) still use the good old EJ20G closed-deck block with late GC-era non-AVCS heads built by Prodrive. Subaru has very little performance development taking place (at least publicly). Prodrive still supports the crate motors but they cut ties with Subaru. Other well-known STI-supported rally shops such as TMR are fading out, too. TMR, for example, is now tied to Gazoo who is primarily working with Toyota. Subaru USA still supports their rally program here, but in Europe, it seems like Subaru is really falling out of favor with the private teams - the engine is tired and the evolutionary chassis is just becoming a poor bang-for-the-buck when compared to the other more revolutionary base models (seriously, just look at the amount of suspension travel available in some of the newer hatches). A short and (bitter)sweet way to sum it up - the prices of performance cars are always on the rise, but Subaru is peddling the same old product while the competition is stepping up the game.

The line in the sand where Subaru gets back on-track catering to performance-oriented consumers will be one of two things:

1. The introduction of a turbocharged BRZ w/ modified FA20 (i.e. not just the NA motor but a MAJOR change to the internal design to address the extra cooling, etc. necessary on factory turbocharged motors).
2. The introduction of a revolutionary performance model with very little parts commonality with any prior platform. This has NEVER been how Subaru (formerly FHI) has functioned, and isn't likely.

Back on-topic - I think the fact of the matter is that if you're opening the block, it's a pretty poor decision to stick RA pistons in rather than aftermarket forged parts if you're building a motor. Since all the 2019 motors will have the updated RA cast pistons, we might see a bit of benefit in terms of a little higher resistance to detonation without breaking ring lands, but nothing groundbreaking that'll make people dash out to the dealership and buy a set of updated pistons.

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Old 11-07-2018, 11:25 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Bimmubishi View Post
The carbon roof is such childish costume jewelry.
Taking weight out of the top of a vehicle is childish costume jewelry?? I think thats one of its best features. Still not worth the extra price but yeah. Agree with you on the spoiler though.
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Old 11-09-2018, 02:43 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
The stock STI block can go well above 350 hp unless you're talking about wheel hp...

Back on-topic - I think the fact of the matter is that if you're opening the block, it's a pretty poor decision to stick RA pistons in rather than aftermarket forged parts if you're building a motor. Since all the 2019 motors will have the updated RA cast pistons, we might see a bit of benefit in terms of a little higher resistance to detonation without breaking ring lands, but nothing groundbreaking that'll make people dash out to the dealership and buy a set of updated pistons.
I was talking basic engine refresh dropping in OEM RA short block and reconditioned heads. I just wanted to know what is a safe WHP limit of RA block.

I am not sold on forged block due to a typically low/lower than stock block longevity. Hence, my interest in RA block alternative as it has somewhat better pistons?
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Old 11-17-2018, 06:57 PM   #41
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I bet 400whp is pretty safe.
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Old 11-17-2018, 07:35 PM   #42
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I bet 400whp is pretty safe.

I think that might be pushing it.
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Old 11-17-2018, 08:09 PM   #43
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I would agree.
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Old 11-19-2018, 10:41 AM   #44
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i doubt they are working on the ej priston at all. I'd put my money on them looking at the shape of a crown and cylinder head, and the DI in an FA motor. As knock control. Why make a piston stronger if you can keep engine from knocking and not need an expensive piston
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Old 11-19-2018, 12:15 PM   #45
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Since I've seen it come up a few times lately, did you happen to measure the ring gaps?
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Old 11-19-2018, 03:30 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by no694terry View Post
i doubt they are working on the ej priston at all. I'd put my money on them looking at the shape of a crown and cylinder head, and the DI in an FA motor. As knock control. Why make a piston stronger if you can keep engine from knocking and not need an expensive piston
But they are... I mean we already have the new piston in production.
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Old 11-19-2018, 05:15 PM   #47
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I think that might be pushing it.
It might be pushing it at 400whp/400wtq, but at 400whp/300wtq probably not.

Maximum torque rating is the more important metric for this engine.
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Old 11-20-2018, 01:01 AM   #48
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Just bought a Type RA block to replace my leaky 2010 STI block w/ 150k.

Bolting on my old Stage 2 parts, and 1000cc injectors and 18G. Aiming for reliable 330 whp.

I'll update anything specific about the RA. I don't plan to open it, want to keep the factory build in-tact.

engine build thread here:
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2889498
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Old 11-20-2018, 04:28 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by blurred View Post
It might be pushing it at 400whp/400wtq, but at 400whp/300wtq probably not.

Maximum torque rating is the more important metric for this engine.
You've got it backwards - these motors do great with high torque around 4000 RPM. Raising the redline or leaning them out to make high RPM power... not so much.
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Old 11-20-2018, 08:06 AM   #50
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It might be pushing it at 400whp/400wtq, but at 400whp/300wtq probably not.

Maximum torque rating is the more important metric for this engine.
Its true torque do kill internals but on a serious question how do u make 400hp with only 300tq lol never seen that happen....

The new RA block will take 400whp no problem.....
Few people running ej207 on 440whp with a **** load of street driving and 1/4 passes....not going to last for ever....i think the hurting point will be 460whp onwards with similar torque figures...... hell I've even seen a v7 ej207 on 500whp last 800km on hard driving
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