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Old 06-25-2004, 10:47 PM   #51
avoturbo
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Quote:
Originally posted by MisterX
You have not been misquoted. Everyone following the thread knows the issue is your failure to provide economical warranty service (sans exorbitant international shipping charges) to US customers. I suspect the idea may occur to you. Some day. If you can allow SPO to provide housings at a fee, in spite of your paranoia, certainly you can appoint a warranty agent in the States.

I purchased the turbo from XS and will, thankfully, deal with them. They're a far less arrogant bunch. As you are the actual manufacturer, I don't trust the part. I did until you started spouting off insults, but not now. You're far too defensive to be guileless. You've redesigned a turbine housing you assert needs no redesign, except of course, if it's used in the US. Your logic evades me, I'm sorry.

Perhaps the cracking is caused by the polarity of the crystalline structure in the matrix of the metal within the casting once it's sent to our side of the world. Whatever it is, I don't want to deal with it.
All things being equal we will soon have warranty facilities in the USA but today we don't, so we have to make do with what we have.

You don't trust the part because you feel insulted? Then I apologise for insulting you, however I still maintain I was misquoted in the context you used the quote.

As far as warranty service goes, we have been more than helpful. Most performance parts get 3 months warranty if that, and most aftermarket turbo (and performance parts for that matter) warranties are VOID in racing applications.

Perhaps the cracking is caused by incorrect use of anti-lag, or too lean or too rich mixtures or retarded timing, perhaps it is because it's a second hand turbo that's been machined out by somebody else, it's very hard for us to determine what the actual cause is when we never get to see the housings.

All the housings we do get to see (as in the ones WE fit and tune) are fine, no problems at all. We have customers running daily drivers with 350hp+ at the wheel with these turbos for long periods of time with no issues at all...

We also made significant changes to the housings 12 months ago in the interests of improving them, the current redesign will make the 500hp more robust, it is not the primary reason for the alteration, the primary reason is flapper valve related.

But of course you won't believe anything I say, so be it, there's nothing I can do about that.

Do you think a piston manufacturer would be helping you out with pistons cracking in racing applications?
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Old 06-25-2004, 11:04 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by MisterX
To say AVO is dealing fairly is the same as saying it would be decent for Sony to require you to ship your TV to Japan for inspection and warranty service.
Now that's a real apples to apples comparison isn't it?

And you question my logic?

Perhaps we should have taken a similar line to this one...

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=480724
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Old 06-26-2004, 02:10 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by avoturbo

From your post are you saying that Clark had one of our 450hp housings machined out over there to fit a -12 into it and it cracked after that? Is that correct?

Cheers,
Steve
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Correct, Here's the info
Quote:
Originally posted by AZScoobie


This one is trashed... The oil input line unhooked from the fitting so the turbo got NO oil for 10 miles or so. The bearings are shot and its hard to turn. Since Garrett Centers are not rebuildable I am just going to buy a -12 cartridge which will come with the new wheels and center..

CT
Would someone please post a pic of the cracked turbos or would someone post on how good their's has been.
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Old 06-26-2004, 02:33 AM   #54
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Here's a picture of my 450. If these are cracking is it at the bottom of the web right next to the flapper. This definately could be a problem on the 500 as the web is almost removed.


The one below is a 500 and as you can see the web is alot thinner.


Last edited by Wombat North; 06-26-2004 at 02:40 AM.
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Old 06-26-2004, 05:49 AM   #55
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hey AZscoobie , i emailed you about membership , its been weeks whats up man?
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Old 06-26-2004, 04:25 PM   #56
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Some one sent me this picture of a AVO500. Hope thay don't mind me posting it.



So it cracks there. What performance decrease could this present. I think unless you had the turbo off you would never know its cracked. Maybe that's why so few in Aus and alot in US as there has been alot more turbos become available at this size here of late. Green, 20g, TD05, APS turbos etc.

The power of the US$ makes it very cheap to try different turbos. Its a 3k turbo in Australia and works well so why take it off.

IMHO
No one would know if its cracked unless they removed it.

I see little performance decrease or problem with the crack if they are all cracking like this picture.
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Old 06-26-2004, 04:34 PM   #57
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I believe that's a fairly beneveloent pronouncement given size of the crack. How did the user find it?

The issue is, will the crack continue to propogate itself through repeated heating and cooling cycles? Additionally one needs to ask if there is more to the crack than is visable to the naked eye. Certainly additional NDT should be performed. Perhaps a mag particle analysis would be helpful. It's not an expensive procedure.
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Old 06-26-2004, 05:16 PM   #58
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Its my turbo - I found it because I was getting full spoolup at 4300rpm, and that seemed a little high on a 2.5 block with AVCS. It was easy enough to pull the downpipe and find it.

When I get the housing back (welded) I will report back on what the spoolup is, if its improved or if 4300rpm is just what it is (identical tune, I won't change anything).
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Old 06-26-2004, 05:51 PM   #59
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DarthChicken
You may remember this graph by Jeff.
The AVO 500 is one laggy animal. Yes this is on the 2.0lt but look when it gets 18psi, at 5200rpm. I think Jeff had AVCS on the motor too. Please confirm.

I think 4300rpm is around where it should be on a 2.5 but I could be wrong.

The first 4 plots are on a 2.0lt for the rest of you guys.

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Old 06-27-2004, 01:22 AM   #60
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Quote:
As I mentioned in the other thread we have NEVER had one of these WRX 500hp turbos fail on any cars we have tuned and for that matter NONE have failed in Australia, only the USA.

If there was a design flaw then we would have turbos failing in other locations besides the USA, this has NOT happened.
This presumes the operating conditions and usage rate is comparable between the two but that is hardly the case.

We have vastly different driving patterns, and distances for daily commutes, different choices of motor sports, not to mention widely different climatic conditions. We have different fuels, and different ECU's etc.

The entire population of Australia is 19 million (this is about 54% of the population of the state of California) most of which is concentrated in 5 metro areas which have average annual temperatures that are the exception rather than the rule here in the US. The coldest metroplitian area in Australia is the Melbourne area with an average annual temperature between 12 - 15 deg C or 54 deg F - 59 deg F. The 90 percentile minimum temperature in Melborne is between 9 - 12 deg C or about 48 - 54 deg F.

In many Cities in the U.S. that would be considered a mild spring or a cool fall day.

How many of your Australian customers commute 50 - 100 miles, starting the car in a heated garage, running at 70 + mph for over an hour then parking the car in winter temps of between 0 deg C and -15 deg C. (32 deg F and 5 deg F). How about parking their cars in minimum outside temps of -29 deg C ( -20 deg F) letting the car cold soak in those temperatures then starting the car and driving at 70 + mph for over an hour and then parking it again in the same conditions.

The problem of heat cracking of thin section cast iron is a very old and well known problem. Many American cars have had problems with cracking exhaust manifolds that were in much thicker section than the turbo outlet section shown in the picture. Quite frankly I would be suprised if the thin web did not crack over time.

Quote:
The reason we require proof of purchase is because ever since we released these turbos EVERYONE in the USA has been trying to 'JUST BUY A HOUSING' obviously so they can build their own turbo. Surely you can see why that is an issue for us?
Actually no many of us cannot see that as an issue for concern -- it is a sales opportunity . Mark up the individual casting a few bucks and give customers with proof of purchase a discount on a replacement part. Your presumption that That's the way all other vendors act is simply not the case.

If I go into a car dealership and ask to buy a short block They tell me the price, they don't ask when I bought my car. ( I chose this example on purpose because of Subaru's experience with the STi 2.5 short block. Yes they briefly stopped sales of short blocks prior to release of the USDM STi, but not because it was some sort of a "issue" it was because they needed to build stocks to cover warrantee repairs. Once they filled that requirement they were quite happy to let owners of 02 and 03 WRXs "build their own" )

Quote:
Why is it such a big deal for you to provide proof that you puchased an AVO turbo? It shouldn't be difficult at all.
If I'm claiming a warrantee replacement no problem at all, -- if I just want to have one at the current market price, its unreasonable. If I go in to a car dealer or auto parts store to buy an new starter, transmission, or any other repair component you care to name they could care less if or when I bought the original, they only ask if the sale will be cash or charge.

Quote:
I am continually bombarded by requests from the USA for 'just a housing'. Why do you think that is? Do they want to try to copy it as others have? Or do they want to build their own turbo from it?
These are the people your anger should be directed at as these are the people making it harder for all of us. Or perhaps you think we should make the housings available for anyone that wants one?
Yes as a matter of fact I do. The whole premise of your argument is faulty. If they wanted to copy or clone your turbo for production, they could afford to buy a complete unit, simply take it apart, go to a custom casting jobber and say make me 100 of these.

The only people you are penalizing are the folks who can't afford to buy the full unit at your pricing structure (ie they will never buy the whole unit so your not losing a sale) but want to get the best unit they can. Or you are losing sales to folks that have one, maybe second or third hand, or new and have lost documentation of purchase ( which in time will be the norm) and want to be confident that they can replace parts in a timely manner if they break it.

The issue that is putting a burr under everyone's saddle is not the "lack of customer support" in the physical sense so much as your lack of concern over the customers lost time and inconvience, and the generally condesending attitude in your posts. I'm not sure about how it wears in Australia, but if you want to lose customers here in the U.S. your on the right track.

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 06-27-2004 at 01:47 AM.
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Old 06-27-2004, 03:25 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by hotrod
This presumes the operating conditions and usage rate is comparable between the two but that is hardly the case.

We have vastly different driving patterns, and distances for daily commutes, different choices of motor sports, not to mention widely different climatic conditions. We have different fuels, and different ECU's etc.

The entire population of Australia is 19 million (this is about 54% of the population of the state of California) most of which is concentrated in 5 metro areas which have average annual temperatures that are the exception rather than the rule here in the US. The coldest metroplitian area in Australia is the Melbourne area with an average annual temperature between 12 - 15 deg C or 54 deg F - 59 deg F. The 90 percentile minimum temperature in Melborne is between 9 - 12 deg C or about 48 - 54 deg F.

In many Cities in the U.S. that would be considered a mild spring or a cool fall day.

How many of your Australian customers commute 50 - 100 miles, starting the car in a heated garage, running at 70 + mph for over an hour then parking the car in winter temps of between 0 deg C and -15 deg C. (32 deg F and 5 deg F). How about parking their cars in minimum outside temps of -29 deg C ( -20 deg F) letting the car cold soak in those temperatures then starting the car and driving at 70 + mph for over an hour and then parking it again in the same conditions.

The problem of heat cracking of thin section cast iron is a very old and well known problem. Many American cars have had problems with cracking exhaust manifolds that were in much thicker section than the turbo outlet section shown in the picture. Quite frankly I would be suprised if the thin web did not crack over time.



Actually no many of us cannot see that as an issue for concern -- it is a sales opportunity . Mark up the individual casting a few bucks and give customers with proof of purchase a discount on a replacement part. Your presumption that That's the way all other vendors act is simply not the case.

If I go into a car dealership and ask to buy a short block They tell me the price, they don't ask when I bought my car. ( I chose this example on purpose because of Subaru's experience with the STi 2.5 short block. Yes they briefly stopped sales of short blocks prior to release of the USDM STi, but not because it was some sort of a "issue" it was because they needed to build stocks to cover warrantee repairs. Once they filled that requirement they were quite happy to let owners of 02 and 03 WRXs "build their own" )



If I'm claiming a warrantee replacement no problem at all, -- if I just want to have one at the current market price, its unreasonable. If I go in to a car dealer or auto parts store to buy an new starter, transmission, or any other repair component you care to name they could care less if or when I bought the original, they only ask if the sale will be cash or charge.



Yes as a matter of fact I do. The whole premise of your argument is faulty. If they wanted to copy or clone your turbo for production, they could afford to buy a complete unit, simply take it apart, go to a custom casting jobber and say make me 100 of these.

The only people you are penalizing are the folks who can't afford to buy the full unit at your pricing structure (ie they will never buy the whole unit so your not losing a sale) but want to get the best unit they can. Or you are losing sales to folks that have one, maybe second or third hand, or new and have lost documentation of purchase ( which in time will be the norm) and want to be confident that they can replace parts in a timely manner if they break it.

The issue that is putting a burr under everyone's saddle is not the "lack of customer support" in the physical sense so much as your lack of concern over the customers lost time and inconvience, and the generally condesending attitude in your posts. I'm not sure about how it wears in Australia, but if you want to lose customers here in the U.S. your on the right track.

Larry
You've made some very good points Larry which I will take up wiith management on Monday morning.

If my posts have appeared condescending I apologize as they were not intended to be, but please be aware in some cases over the last 12 months I have been hassled (a lot) to provide warranty on second hand housings (well in excess of 12 months old) that have been machined and re-assembled in the USA and then had problems in racing applications. I don't quite know how you guys view that but I feel it is a tad unfair, and in some cases my patience is perhaps wearing thin. Again I apologise.

Of course we are concerned with customer's loss of time and inconvienience but we can only do what we can do, the current batch of housings are already more than 8 weeks overdue despite constant promises from foundries and machine shops. So no matter how much you are prepared to pay, or which express freight you are prepared to pay for, until we have them there's simply nothing we can do.

The new housings that are being made will require alterations to the actuator and actuator bracket. The issues we have faced in the past in similar situations is getting the part refitted or in this case re-assembled correctly. Our desire to have any problem turbos returned here is NOT to make things difficult and to cause loss of time it is to ensure that they are machined and re-assembled correctly.

Anyone who is prepared to take one and re-assemble themselves need to take this and its implications into consideration.

Regards,
Steve.
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Old 06-27-2004, 03:41 AM   #62
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Fair enough. supply chain problems are pretty common in the automotive parts business.

I'm sure many of the folks who want to buy a repair part understand that as a home built unit they are responsible for proper fit up etc.

I also understand that there are a minority of folks who will abuse the system and many of the folks here on the board are just as fed up with their rip off attitudes as you are, they have cost a lot of folks problems with transmission repairs etc.


Unfortunately some of that sort of abuse of warrantee coverage is a cost of doing business. There are quite a few vendors that deal with it with a "Okay I'll do this for you one time only".

There are some customers you just don't want to deal with and I understand that. Folks are just rightly concerned that they may be buying into a repair parts nightmare, and will go someplace else rather than to deal with it.

Your management also needs to understand that the window of opportunity of having the best unit available is closing and there are some very promising high power options coming out.

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 06-27-2004 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 06-27-2004, 10:27 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by hotrod
Your management also needs to understand the the window of opportunity of having the best unit available is closing and there are some very promising high power options coming out.

Larry
Thank God!
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Old 06-27-2004, 02:36 PM   #64
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Regardless of driving pattern, Engine/Fuel Managment, it still doesnt change that fact people in australia are still tuners just like the people state side. And even though they are down under, they still use the same type of products as we do such as Greddy/trust, HKS, Blitz, etc. My point is Regardless of region they still drive hard and fast. Oh and we also have a vast diversity of tempratures and weather... Example AZ is 100+ degrees where Chicago can be Snowing....., Product is Product, Tuning is Tuning, Driving is Driving.

[P.S have visited Southern Australia Melbourne/Victoria, and its awsome ]
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Old 06-27-2004, 03:38 PM   #65
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Thanks to Hotrod for expressing what equates to being my feelings on this matter but without the emotion and with great eloquence.
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Old 06-28-2004, 10:08 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by MisterX
And then you taunt me for being a customer?

It will ship out approximately 9:00 AM, Monday. I'll gladly pay restocking charges which will be worth my peace of mind.

You've really comported yourself miserably here. After reading your posts, even if the turbo had no inherent defect, I'd send it back. [/b]

My thoughts exactly. This seems to be a common business mantra in the Suby community.
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Old 06-28-2004, 02:45 PM   #67
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This turbo came from SPO. It was purchased by a guy named Rob on the forums. I have his email addy and can contact him. Some other members might remember him. He had a black WRX Auto with the AVO450, FMIC, Axis 2.4ltr ect.. I flew out to tune his car. This turbo was brand new. Started the car drove 10 miles. The SS oil line failed because it was not crimped right at the turbo.. Popped off.. Sprayed oil all over. Fixed it and the turbo bearings went out a week later. I purchased the turbo off him and had the cartridge replaced in the states. SPO refused to help him and AVO refused to help him (his words) even though the oil line came with the turbo. He had no choice but to spend another $2000 on a new turbo which he did along with another oil line.

I understand about people wanting the housings. But if you know I have a cracked one and I need a new one that should be a different story.

I had a closer look at mine. Mine is cracked all the way throught he Turbine "barrell". Its not fixable...

Mikes car is the show car for his shop. Kingpinperformance.com It is the only Right hand drive Full JDM STI conversion in the states and having a RHD car is a big deal in the states. It has a large AVO banner on the car and hits just about every major show. The car is at the pikes peak rally as I type this with the banner on it. Pics of this car are not posted on the net because of agreements with 3 major magazines which have done articles on the car. You might find a few pics of it during the buildup but not of the current state which includes a very expensive full paint job.

My turbo is an AVO450 but I used a GT30R-15 cartridge and a turbonetics brand t4 comp cover because its a bit larger then the standard t4 and has more "meat" to machine.

The second turbo I built up was for a forum member named Sean (big adventure). I purchased a blown AVO320 off the forums. This turbo was installed, The cartridge bearings failed, SPO and AVO did not offer to help or warranty the turbo so the customer was forced to buy a new one that week for full price. I have no idea why it failed in that short time but must have had an oil issue. I purchased the turbo from him so I could build it into a GT30. We used the 320 turbine housing. GT302-11 cartridge and a t4 comp cover. This turned out to be a fantastic turbo. Great spool up and 370+whp on unleaded fuel on a dynojet. Much more responsive then the 450-500's. It is a turbo that i wish AVO would make because this is what the guys with a 2.0 need..

My car uses a 2.5 block with Spec C heads and cams. The .8 Turbine is probably better for me. If I could get another housing I could have my turbo builder machine it for my current -15 cartridge again.. Slap the turbo back on the car and have minimal outlay in cash.

I also wanted to add that to me there are a few issues and one keeps being the main topic.. The topic of people with second hand turbos wanting warranty replacement? Who are these people and where are they?

Adam: Factory AVO 500.. cracked..
Jeff: Factory AVo500.. Cracked
Mike: Factory AVO450.. Cracked.
Me: Machined AVO450 housing to 500 spec.. Cracked.


Adam, Jeff, and Mike should get new housings. I think Jeff did already. I should be able to buy another housing.

The other issue is the $400 it costs to ship the turbo to Aus. We have turbo shops all over in the US that can fit these housings for less then that shipping costs by a great margin.



Cya

Clark

Quote:
Originally posted by avoturbo
So what are you saying? You don't remember who you bought it off? You can't give us a name and a date.

The reason we require proof of purchase is because ever since we released these turbos EVERYONE in the USA has been trying to 'JUST BUY A HOUSING' obviously so they can build their own turbo. Surely you can see why that is an issue for us?

Why is it such a big deal for you to provide proof that you puchased an AVO turbo? It shouldn't be difficult at all.

Love to see some pics sometime of this car covered in AVO banners too.

Anyway, didn't you created your own hybrid turbo with a 320hp housing?
According to you this hybrid was the duck's guts..??
So why do you want another large housing anyway?


Cheers,
Steve.
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Last edited by AZScoobie; 06-28-2004 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 06-28-2004, 04:04 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by AZScoobie
450's crack just the same as 500's do. Most of the ones I know of where all 450's.. All cracked.

C
Clark

Maybe you mean all of the 450's that had been modified are now cracked.

Seems the stock 500 is the problem not the 450.

Most of the bigger engine guys in Australia don't go past the 450 because they step up to an external W/G. Maybe this is why they don't have the failure as they only use the 450.

The picture above of my 450 certainly shows a bigger web(meat)
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Old 06-28-2004, 04:18 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wombat North
Clark

Maybe you mean all of the 450's that had been modified are now cracked.

Seems the stock 500 is the problem not the 450.

Most of the bigger engine guys in Australia don't go past the 450 because they step up to an external W/G. Maybe this is why they don't have the failure as they only use the 450.

The picture above of my 450 certainly shows a bigger web(meat)
I dont know why you seem to think the 450's do not have this issue. I have heard/ read or seen around 10 cracked turbine housings and more then half of those are 450's. Just like Mikes Factory out of the box and onto the car AVO450. His turbo is cracked so badly its leaking exhaust out the back.

To me, its obvious that there was a problem with the housings. Either bad casting or design. Its been fixed now with the new housings. I do not know of a cracked new style housing although I was under the impression Mikes turbo was a newer one.

C

Clark
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Old 06-28-2004, 07:23 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by AZScoobie
I dont know why you seem to think the 450's do not have this issue. I have heard/ read or seen around 10 cracked turbine housings and more then half of those are 450's.
Only been trying to get facts Clark. I actually bought the 450 based on some of your posts so I value your imput.

Let mean explain more.

I spent the weekend emailing and phoning some very good contacts I have in Australia(I'm Australian). It appears from what they have heard/seen no 450 turbos there have cracked to their knowledge. I asked about the 500 and it seems it creeps so most in Australia don't use the 500 but upgrade to a seperate W/G as I stated earlier.

I seached MRT Forums, all the state club forums and no one has posted of the 450 or the 500 cracking that I could find. What I did find was alot of satisfied customers.

So now along comes this thread saying alot of turbos have cracked. As you are the one who posts I tend to believe.

You then post one out of 4 turbos was a stock 450 that cracked. I was making sure you had the facts correct as what we are doing in this thread is killing a business. I feel as probably you do that AVO really doesn't deserve that and as such I would like to see as many facts as possible. One picture of a 500 cracking is not enough and yes it maybe just the tip off the iceberg that you have been fortunate to see more of.

Hope that explains my previous post.

One question I would like to ask you.
When looking at my picture above of my turbo do all the 450's have the large web between the turbine and W/G "NOT" touched by the machining process for the W/G flapper seat like it has been on the 500.

Thanks
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Old 06-28-2004, 07:30 PM   #71
MisterX
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Wombat, next time you go to the Aussie forums, why not ask the question? Maybe the problem does exist there and not been discussed.
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Old 06-28-2004, 07:40 PM   #72
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Wombat.. I certainly do not want to hurt AVO's bussiness. Thats not my goal at all. As you know from my many posts on the subject.. I like AVO products and turbos. I think we are just frusterated because we are all left with very few options. I dont know the answer about the webing.. mine is not cracked in that exact same spot though.

C
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Old 06-28-2004, 07:43 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by AZScoobie
Wombat.. I certainly do not want to hurt AVO's bussiness. Thats not my goal at all. As you know from my many posts on the subject.. I like AVO products and turbos. I think we are just frusterated because we are all left with very few options.
C
Sincerely, that's not my point either. I believe we all will benefit from the knowledge of which turbos are cracking and why.
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Old 06-28-2004, 07:48 PM   #74
n2xlr8n
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Quote:
Originally posted by AZScoobie
Wombat.. I certainly do not want to hurt AVO's bussiness. Thats not my goal at all. As you know from my many posts on the subject.. I like AVO products and turbos. I think we are just frusterated because we are all left with very few options. I dont know the answer about the webing.. mine is not cracked in that exact same spot though.

C
BTW, Clark.....Steve is not so lucky anymore...I sold it and made a wad.... The most difficult car-related decision I've ever made. But by God it was fun for three weeks!

Back on topic.....
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Old 06-28-2004, 08:02 PM   #75
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Oh no! Time to change my profile then.

C
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