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Old 04-21-2008, 03:47 PM   #1426
AustinTR
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Hey guys the TR is doing great on E-85. I've logged over 10,000 with this stuff as the car is my daily driver. I typically run 26 degrees of timing and 22-23 punds of boost. The car is basically stock with the stock fuel system.

I've got a few more converts going to E-85 over at the TurboBuick site, Still alot of fence sitters claiming all kinds of myths about corrsion, etc..LOL

Larry- I changed the 160 stat out and put a 195 in. Works excellent. For most I guess running a lil hotter is counter-intuitive, but the alcohol based fuels just work better under those conditions.

With all of the great luck I've had with the White car, the GN will also be an E-85 car and I'll have a meth injection kit on top of it. Alcohol as my primary and secondary fuel.... oh yeah and that Dual Ball Bearing turbo

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Old 04-21-2008, 09:56 PM   #1427
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Keep us informed I think WI/alcohol injection will have a place with E85 to get good performance and good fuel mileage. Glad to hear your engine likes higher operation temps too. I attribute it to better fuel atomization. For the summer I will be dropping back to the stock thermostat (172) and going to the 180 I currently run in the winter to get good warm ups and better fuel mileage.

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Old 04-21-2008, 10:23 PM   #1428
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Originally Posted by 02REX4LIFE View Post
So if i wanted to put E85 into my car, on the stock turbo and injectors, and with a walbro 255, with a stage 2 tune...... What mixture would be best to run? sorry, im just having a hard time comprehending all these terms. lol. i just want to know the best mixture that wont hurt the car. can anybody tell me?
If you already have a tune I suggest not touching E85. your tuner probably has it set up for Pump gas and there isn't the flexability that a stock ECU would give you.



I don't think its worth it to halfway convert. I suggest modding the stock injectors and getting a tune. The only way you'll see benefits is with the tune and might as well go all the way.
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Old 04-21-2008, 10:26 PM   #1429
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So if i wanted to put E85 into my car, on the stock turbo and injectors, and with a walbro 255, with a stage 2 tune...... What mixture would be best to run?
You should be able to run up to about 30% mix of E85 with no problems. That is about the blend that will throw a CEL but I have run up to 50% E85 on the stock turbo and stock injectors with no problems if you are willing to ignore the CEL. If you put in 550 STi pink injectors you can run from about 30% E85 up to about 100% E85 on the stock turbo.

If it is a reflash you should still have the self tuning ability of the stock ECU if you are using something like a Utec it would be advisable to get access to a wide band O2 sensor and get a look at you fuel air mixtures at WOT.

See my discussion on the first page of the FAQ.

Larry
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Old 04-21-2008, 10:39 PM   #1430
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Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
You should be able to run up to about 30% mix of E85 with no problems. That is about the blend that will throw a CEL but I have run up to 50% E85 on the stock turbo and stock injectors with no problems if you are willing to ignore the CEL. If you put in 550 STi pink injectors you can run from about 30% E85 up to about 100% E85 on the stock turbo.

If it is a reflash you should still have the self tuning ability of the stock ECU if you are using something like a Utec it would be advisable to get access to a wide band O2 sensor and get a look at you fuel air mixtures at WOT.

See my discussion on the first page of the FAQ.

Larry
If he's not running a stock map than I would suggest not putting any E-85 in his car. The CEL isn't just some kind of annoying thing. It's your engine running too lean in most situations. Tuners sell different maps for 91 and 93 octane. If you put a wildly different fuel in there your asking for disaster.
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Old 04-22-2008, 12:40 AM   #1431
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well i did it this time!

i did a 50/50 mixture (50% E85 & 50% 85octane), the only Check Engine Light i got is the p0171 (system to lean, bank 1) at 1/2 tank and again at 1/4tank, this only happens when i run over 30% E85 mixs.

so is the ecu telling me that the injectors are maxing out and it's cuasing the "system to lean" code?
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Old 04-22-2008, 12:55 AM   #1432
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well i did it this time!

i did a 50/50 mixture (50% E85 & 50% 85octane), the only Check Engine Light i got is the p0171 (system to lean, bank 1) at 1/2 tank and again at 1/4tank, this only happens when i run over 30% E85 mixs.

so is the ecu telling me that the injectors are maxing out and it's cuasing the "system to lean" code?
Yes the ECU is using up all its tuning authority to get to normal mixtures in closed loop and you will be running a bit lean at WOT.

On the stock turbo you are power limited (and air flow limited) so that although it is not ideal you can run leaner than ideal at WOT if you don't stand on it for extended periods of time.

Quote:
If he's not running a stock map than I would suggest not putting any E-85 in his car. The CEL isn't just some kind of annoying thing. It's your engine running too lean in most situations. Tuners sell different maps for 91 and 93 octane. If you put a wildly different fuel in there your asking for disaster.
Actually based on my experience the CEL is mostly a nuisance I have several thousand miles on a stock turbo WRX running 30%-50% blends of E85 with no problems. The high octane of E85 (road octane of about 112) and its high cooling capacity and cool burning characteristics make it much more forgiving to lean mixtures than crap 91 octane pump premium.

It is not "ideal" but it is also not asking for disaster, but rather suggesting caution to avoid extended periods of high load. Since no two engines and drivers are identical it certainly demands that the driver make informed decisions regarding how far he is willing to push the envelope, but this fuel will tolerate upwards of 35 psi of boost without detonation at proper rich mixtures so there is lots of cushion there to work with.

If you look at my discussion of my experiments with a home grown FFV on E85 I ran stoich mixtures at 10 psi boost with no detonation or other problems. Not recommended to do intentionally ( which is why I caution against it) but there are plenty of folks shouting the sky is falling regarding E85 so it is important to point out it is different than gasoline and things that would kill your engine in a heartbeat on gasoline are not necessarily bad on E85 mixtures.

Quote:
If he's not running a stock map than I would suggest not putting any E-85 in his car.
We have probably 100,000 miles of experience with E85 in several different cars with much more aggressive setups than he is running. I personally have about 45,000 miles of E85 usage on my WRX much of it while running exactly the blends he is talking about and very similar setup. A 30% blend in my view based on that experience is absolutely safe for his setup. 50% blend would be an educated risk which only he can evaluate by looking at his spark plugs, and any other info he might have from logging, engine temps, EGT's and knock correction etc.

Larry
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Old 04-22-2008, 07:33 AM   #1433
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Larry
Have you tried opening up the A/F learning limits to try and make the ECU act like a true FFV?
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Old 04-22-2008, 05:06 PM   #1434
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I have been running E85 for about 1 1/2 years with very minimal trouble. I would love to see a reflash that can truley make the car flexible. I would like some additional power out of the car, I am running 550s on a stock turbo, 02 WRX, Would increasing turbo size max out my injectors, would I have to go back to pump gas? I have no ecu tune at the moment, just the larger injectors.
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Old 04-22-2008, 07:49 PM   #1435
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Hi I am really very new to the idea of e85, i found out about it today.
i am very interested in converting my 02 wrx to run a mixture of 90-100% e85. the only problem is i am too big of a noob to figure out the injector size I will need and if I need a fuel pump or not. yes I have seen the formula to produce the injector size of need, but I don't know what my cfm is.

Here is my car- I have a stage 2 protuned map by pdx for 18 psi

I know this is asking to be spoonfed, but I really want to be part of the energy solution in stead of the problem!
Thanks
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Old 04-22-2008, 09:00 PM   #1436
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Have you tried opening up the A/F learning limits to try and make the ECU act like a true FFV?
Check the front page of the FAQ I have a note in there on the post number where I discussed a home made FFV. It is easy to do and you do not need to alter the tuning limits. All you have to do is scale the injectors so you have near zero fuel trims on a 50/50 mix of E85 (ie about 15% larger than stock).

The stock ECU has +/- 25% fuel trim authority which is almost enough to get a full FFV setup, but you need to scale the injectors so they sit in the middle of that range at a 50/50 blend to be able to use it all.

For a daily driver with a small turbo that works fine but the car will run a bit lean at WOT. I did it for some time but if you are running a big turbo and serious boost I would caution you to make an effort to richen up the open loop map.

You can add some low tech tuning ability by adding an after market adjustable fuel pressure regulator and running about 55 psi fuel pressure on 100% E85 to richen up the fuel map even without any reflash ability.

550 sti pinks are just about perfect on the stock turbo, and will allow you to run any where from 30% -100% E85 on the stock ECU. With a reflash ability you could easily cover the whole range. You will run out of injector on 550's if you run a bigger turbo and high boost, unless you jack the base fuel pressure up into the 50 psi range.

Quote:
yes I have seen the formula to produce the injector size of need, but I don't know what my cfm is.
What turbo are you running and what is the maximum boost you plan to run?
Look at the turbo FAQ and you can figure out your maximum air flow.


Larry
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Old 04-22-2008, 09:02 PM   #1437
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Originally Posted by tabrad View Post
Hi I am really very new to the idea of e85, i found out about it today.
i am very interested in converting my 02 wrx to run a mixture of 90-100% e85. the only problem is i am too big of a noob to figure out the injector size I will need and if I need a fuel pump or not. yes I have seen the formula to produce the injector size of need, but I don't know what my cfm is.

Here is my car- I have a stage 2 protuned map by pdx for 18 psi

I know this is asking to be spoonfed, but I really want to be part of the energy solution in stead of the problem!
Thanks
Go with injector in the 700+ CC range (modder stockers are plenty)get a Walbro pump and find a tuner that knows how to take full advantage of E-85. We have well over a hundred subies running E-85 here in CO and several tuners that can make full use of it. I think going bigger on the injectors is good because if you ever want a bigger turbo your ready to go.

I don't see any reason to blend fuels. Run a map for E-85 and one for Gas you'll be fine.

Blending is only if your fuel system isn't up to delivering the proper amount of fuel. Or your scared of supposed corrosion. You will really only see significant performance gains properly tuned with E-85 all the way. It's hard enough to keep the tank filled with the scarcity of e-85 stations to keep a specific blend would be a pain in the arse.

Last edited by eminehart; 04-22-2008 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 04-22-2008, 10:29 PM   #1438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod View Post

What turbo are you running and what is the maximum boost you plan to run?
Look at the turbo FAQ and you can figure out your maximum air flow.


Larry
Just the stock turbo and max boost of 18 psi
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Old 04-22-2008, 10:33 PM   #1439
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Originally Posted by eminehart View Post
I don't see any reason to blend fuels. Run a map for E-85 and one for Gas you'll be fine.
Oh thats an idea that hadn't even occured to me. I plan on just getting a new map from pdx for it then.
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Old 04-22-2008, 11:00 PM   #1440
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Just the stock turbo and max boost of 18 psi
No problem 550 pinks would work good for that. That is essentially what I had when I was running the 550 STi pinks on 100% E85. I could go down to about 30% E85 before the car started to show it was running rich due to too much gasoline in the fuel blend. It would still work fine but you could tell it was very rich and fuel mileage suffered on straight gasoline.

An upgrade to a walbro 255 l/hr would be a good idea but not absolutely critical if you are short of funds, and need to wait a while to do that. As above the decapitated stock injectors work well (what I am running right now with a 16G) but you will need to get a reflash or take some other measure to control your fuel mixture.

Quote:
I don't see any reason to blend fuels. Run a map for E-85 and one for Gas you'll be fine.
The blending option is good for folks that just want to put their toe in the water before making a the full plunge, and it is also useful as a diagnostic to see how the car acts if you cannot find E85 when you need it.

Keeping a specific fuel blend is really not very critical unless you are running a high power high boost setup. For a daily driver E85 is amazingly forgiving with regard to fuel air mixtures. It will run fine on very lean mixtures or very rich mixtures if you are forced to due to its wide flammability limits. Its high octane protects you against detonation on mixtures that would kill the engine if you were running normal pump gasoline.

Obviously the dedicated fuel map is the best way to go if you can but the user should know what happens if he has to top up with gasoline during travel etc.

Here in the Denver Area we are now getting to the point that you are never more than about 20 miles from an E85 station. But sometimes due to schedule conflicts it is nice to just toss in 5 gallons of gasoline and know that the car will run just fine.

I now have an E85 station near my route to work so it is easy to keep the tank full of E85.

If traveling the simple solution if you will have to span an area that does not have easy access to E85 is to just top off the tank with gasoline when it gets down to about 3/4 full. That will keep your ethanol concentration high enough that it will still run normally even on a full bore 100% E85 conversion. I get 270 - 290 miles per tank on E85 if I am making no special effort to drive for economy. If I top off at 3/4 tank with gasoline I will get a total travel distance of about 400 miles out of the car before I need to fill again. That will get you to another E85 outlet almost anywhere in the country now that there are about 1500 stations selling the fuel.

Larry
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Old 04-23-2008, 12:14 AM   #1441
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I'm planning on a specific map for e85... actually 2! Run one at a low psi, one at high psi, same with gas. I'll also do one for a 50/50 mix as a just in case for long trips.

Should be fun... just can't wait til my car is out of the shop, install utec and wideband, tune utec maps, tune for a low boost gas map, mod injectors(flowtest and clean too!), upgrade to walbro, and make the leap to e85!
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Old 04-23-2008, 01:50 AM   #1442
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Thinking seriously of switching to e-85. Nearest station is 30 miles away, but I usually don't buy gas locally in my little town anyway... maybe throw a 5 gallon jug of e-85 in the garage "just in case"...

I have an NGK AFX wideband, which only reads in afr's... I'm thinking of modd'ing my stock injectors, and then whipping up a map for e-85. Just want to make 100% sure I understand the Wideband issue-

After adjusting my fuel maps, and adding in approx. 30% more fuel, (assuming that dials in my AFR's close to correct).. I should still be seeing around say 11.2 at WOT on my wideband? even though in reality I am running around 7.6:1 ish... is my thinking correct on that.... so for example, if I did not add in any extra fuel, my wideband would be reading very lean at WOT because my mixture would be around 11.2 (actual) and for e85 that is obviously very lean.....

Correct me if I'm wrong, just need to get that part sorted out before I begin tuning for it... well, first I'll mod the injectors, re-tune for that, then move to e85.....

thanks! very exciting!!
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Old 04-23-2008, 03:25 AM   #1443
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If you are showing a gasoline calibrated AFR of 11.2 on straight E85 at WOT you are doing just fine on your mixture!

Does your wideband show the lambda reading as well as the AFR?

If so, shoot for lambda 1 -1.02 at light throttle cruise, and lambda 0.72 -0.76 at WOT for a starting point. You can go a little bit leaner at WOT in most cases, if you are running a small turbo and mild boost (less that 18 psi). But based on my experience you will make more power in the Lambda 0.72 - 0.76 range. My original conversion displayed a gasoline calibrated AFR of 11.5 (lambda 0.78) and the car ran just great but that was on the stock turbo and moderate boost.

To convert lambda to a gasoline AFR .... Lambda = displayed AFR/ (gasoline stoich AFR 14.7)
To convert lambda to true E85 AFR ....... lambda = true AFR/ (E85 stoich AFR 9.8)

Your displayed gasoline AFR value of 11.2 equals a lambda of (11.2/14.7 = 0.76)

Your true AFR would be about 0.76 x 9.8 = 7.5:1

Larry
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Old 04-23-2008, 03:36 AM   #1444
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Larry,

so would Stock WRX injectors be ideal for my 2.5i N/A to run a 50/50 mix? (posible 100% e85)
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Old 04-23-2008, 04:03 AM   #1445
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I don't know the stock injector size for your engine off the top of my head, what would be the % change in fuel flow?

Larry
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Old 04-23-2008, 02:16 PM   #1446
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Thank you hotrod, that is what I needed confirmed...

I'm gonna go for it... next couple days I'll pull my injectors and mod them, (need to anyway, I'm at 95% IDC with a vf39 & a lot of other mods (6700ft altitude) ... but that should give me the headroom to run e-85 and be a decent amount below 95% when I'm done... win-win situation...
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Old 04-23-2008, 03:02 PM   #1447
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Hotrod, when you got your emissions tested were you running a completely catless setup, or were you catted? Because I'm wondering if my completely catless setup could pass emissions on e85.
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Old 04-23-2008, 03:50 PM   #1448
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Originally Posted by tabrad View Post
Hotrod, when you got your emissions tested were you running a completely catless setup, or were you catted? Because I'm wondering if my completely catless setup could pass emissions on e85.
Do you have a visual inspection? Do they actually do it? It's not that hard to tune a car to pass the sniffer without a cat.
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Old 04-23-2008, 06:04 PM   #1449
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I read all 58 pages over the last couple of days. Thanks so much for all of the great info. I am about to order some goodies to convert my car to run 100% e85. If any of you are making your own e85 or know someone that is, I would love to ask a few questions. My wife is a chem E from GT, so I got her working on it. I just need some more info on making a still. I think David Buschur was working on producing his own ethanol. David, if you're keeping up with this thread, please let me know how it is working out.
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Old 04-24-2008, 12:25 AM   #1450
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Pulled my injectors this evening, and ground the caps off... been tuning on it a little tonight.... I ended up having the best luck with size set at 720cc's, stock latency settings, Tip-In skewed down about 30%.... WOT AFR's are pretty darn close... just a touch richer than what my Wideband says... but I'm seeing some A/F learning correction down low... more than I should I think....

Anyway, it's running pretty smooth... might actually fill up on E85 tomorrow and try it out, I have a map ready to go!!
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