Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Tuesday September 17, 2019
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > News & Rumors > Non-Subaru News & Rumors

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-21-2019, 03:06 PM   #1051
Sid03SVT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 183032
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: CT
Vehicle:
OLD Family Wagon

Default

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Sid03SVT is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 06-21-2019, 03:53 PM   #1052
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen [email protected]
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
I remember in college (~2003), Amazon ($21 stock) was a typical case study of an internet company that didn't have a chance and was only being propped-up by loans. So, just because a company is reinvesting revenues into growth doesn't mean it will fail.

******

A few other responses:

Don't forget Audi has ~18 factories (per Audi AG) and produces more than three models. Tesla only has 1 car factory (GF3 China is not open yet). It is very impressive that Tesla has outsold luxury OEMs in the US. We don't need Tesla to be the biggest company, just successful.

The ability to charge at home is key for most use, but the real star is the Supercharger network. Having thousands of locations across the country allow for anxiety free long distance travel. I often tell people that if I wanted to go to Miami (I'm in NY), I could go right now without worry. That would be extremely difficult with any other BEV. Public Level 2 and even EVgo or Electrify America DC charging is very scarce, comparably.

We charge at home to 90% often, but the car tends to live around 75% most of the week since we rent a garage and just use a 120v (adds 5mile per hour). My wife's commute is only 10 miles per day.

I have been below 6% on my way to a SC and that wasn't a fun feeling, but in reality I had close to 18 miles remaining.

exactly! Tesla is widely misunderstood by wall street.
juanmedina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2019, 03:56 PM   #1053
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen [email protected]
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
The 2009 etron concept was not really an "announcement". It was an R8 based computer rendered concept...

And they don't really have much to worry about. In May, Audi etron sales exceeded sales of Tesla Model S (and X) sales (globally). Clearly the range difference doesn't matter to enough people. Wait till the VW ID. Crozz is released and actually cost competitive with the Model 3...

Range comparisons are the new armchair racer data points.

Range comparisons just show how technologicaly inferior the other car is .

Last edited by juanmedina; 06-21-2019 at 05:28 PM. Reason: I Hate my phone
juanmedina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2019, 05:01 PM   #1054
Keshav
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 1654
Join Date: Jun 2000
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Vehicle:
2019 GoCycle GX
MV Agusta Brutale S

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
Since we're showing modified Tesla stuff
The 'making of' video linked at the end is more fun than the actual commercial.
Keshav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2019, 06:57 PM   #1055
dwf137
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
'18 Golf R
'14 Outback

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
Range comparisons just show how technologicaly inferior the other car is .
Right. Exactly like comparing cars by 0-60 times instead of actually evaluating the driving experience.
dwf137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2019, 07:26 PM   #1056
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen [email protected]
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
Right. Exactly like comparing cars by 0-60 times instead of actually evaluating the driving experience.
Yeah driving experience is quantifiable
juanmedina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2019, 08:04 PM   #1057
godfather2112
Papi Chulo
Moderator
 
Member#: 53794
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Boner kill city
Vehicle:
... 2017 BMW M2
2017 F-150

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
Yeah driving experience is quantifiable
You do realize most car buyers are not shopping cars based on 0-60 times, right Vin Diesel?
godfather2112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2019, 08:09 PM   #1058
dwf137
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
'18 Golf R
'14 Outback

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
Yeah driving experience is quantifiable
Of course it's not. That's why it's so silly. Just like how mileage estimates are exactly that, estimates. People should do more than compare mileage based on a standardized test that will do a poor job of replicating real life.

No doubt in my mind that the Audi is a better car on every other metric. But when people get caught up in a number, they discount all those other metrics. Sometimes mileage will be critical, others, the rest of the car outweighs the mileage hit. It's about the whole package, but everyone in here is cherry picking the mileage and writing of the car on that alone.

Again... Arm chair racing.
dwf137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2019, 08:12 PM   #1059
godfather2112
Papi Chulo
Moderator
 
Member#: 53794
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Boner kill city
Vehicle:
... 2017 BMW M2
2017 F-150

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
Of course it's not. That's why it's so silly. Just like how mileage estimates are exactly that, estimates. People should do more than compare mileage based on a standardized test that will do a poor job of replicating real life.

No doubt in my mind that the Audi is a better car on every other metric. But when people get caught up in a number, they discount all those other metrics.

Again... Arm chair racing.
You keep chasing a moving goal post
godfather2112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2019, 08:15 PM   #1060
dwf137
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
'18 Golf R
'14 Outback

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
You keep chasing a moving goal post
Please explain your logic. Because you keep posting this and I keep thinking it's pointless.

Things change over time. Yes. But we can discuss a snapshot in time, i.e. what is available today. Will Tesla change? Yes. Will Audi change? Yes. Does Tesla overpromise ever? Yes. But that all doesn't change what is available for purchase right now.
dwf137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2019, 09:06 PM   #1061
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen [email protected]
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
You do realize most car buyers are not shopping cars based on 0-60 times, right Vin Diesel?
I thought we were talking about range. I agree 0-60 is not important but total range in an EV IMO is very important specially with range anxiety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
Of course it's not. That's why it's so silly. Just like how mileage estimates are exactly that, estimates. People should do more than compare mileage based on a standardized test that will do a poor job of replicating real life.

No doubt in my mind that the Audi is a better car on every other metric. But when people get caught up in a number, they discount all those other metrics. Sometimes mileage will be critical, others, the rest of the car outweighs the mileage hit. It's about the whole package, but everyone in here is cherry picking the mileage and writing of the car on that alone.

Again... Arm chair racing.
The whole package... Acceleration, range, cargo space, interior space, charging network, technology, safety, efficiency, American built is not important. But German built, looks, lots of buttons, "quality", noise dampening, are only the things that are important.
juanmedina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2019, 09:22 PM   #1062
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen [email protected]
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

juanmedina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2019, 09:37 AM   #1063
Snow Drift
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 75071
Join Date: Nov 2004
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Long Island
Vehicle:
'18 Tesla Model 3
B4: 05 08 11 WRX 18 STI

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
You do realize most car buyers are not shopping cars based on 0-60 times, right Vin Diesel?
Correct. Once you pick a segment, most are shopping based on brand perception.

Let's be honest, most cars within a specific segment are similar. Camry, Accord, Altima, Legacy (besides AWD factor) or 4-Series, C-Class, A4, IS, Giulia, Q50, Model 3, etc.

There's a price, size, shape, seating, tech and efficiency want list, and then you pick something that has most or all criteria from the brand that you like.

If you want, or are considering a BEV, then there is a Tesla model which is a compelling option in each of their respective segments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
Sweet review:
Very well done.

Last edited by Snow Drift; 06-22-2019 at 09:50 AM.
Snow Drift is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2019, 10:13 AM   #1064
Keshav
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 1654
Join Date: Jun 2000
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Vehicle:
2019 GoCycle GX
MV Agusta Brutale S

Default

I'm reading about massive markups on the new Toyota Supra in SOCAL, which reminds me about one of the best things about Tesla. No dealers.

That's probably the tipping point for me.

also, this video with our otter Tim Stevens
Keshav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2019, 11:59 AM   #1065
dwf137
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
'18 Golf R
'14 Outback

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
I thought we were talking about range. I agree 0-60 is not important but total range in an EV IMO is very important specially with range anxiety.
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/big-reads/ev-test-audi-e-tron-vs-tesla-model-x-vs-jaguar-i-pace

Take a look at their real world mileage. Audi's etron was a mere 5 miles off of the model X on the exact same drive. Standardized tests are only reflective of performance in a standardized situation. Real life is anything but. Comparing these numbers is incredibly misleading, and at this point is all Tesla fans are holding on to. Once charging networks are developed, it'll be even less of a difference. Personally, I'm looking for an EV only for in town driving, keeping an ICE for longer trips, so as long as I can get 200 miles, I'm good, I don't need a charging network yet.

Last edited by dwf137; 06-22-2019 at 12:05 PM.
dwf137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2019, 12:36 PM   #1066
godfather2112
Papi Chulo
Moderator
 
Member#: 53794
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Boner kill city
Vehicle:
... 2017 BMW M2
2017 F-150

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
I'm reading about massive markups on the new Toyota Supra in SOCAL, which reminds me about one of the best things about Tesla. No dealers.

That's probably the tipping point for me.

also, this video with our otter Tim Stevens
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRP5BEZF17I
Itís a limited production launch edition. So what if dealers mark them up, let the fools pay markup prices.
godfather2112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2019, 01:51 PM   #1067
shikataganai
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/big-reads/ev-test-audi-e-tron-vs-tesla-model-x-vs-jaguar-i-pace



Take a look at their real world mileage. Audi's etron was a mere 5 miles off of the model X on the exact same drive. Standardized tests are only reflective of performance in a standardized situation. Real life is anything but. Comparing these numbers is incredibly misleading, and at this point is all Tesla fans are holding on to. Once charging networks are developed, it'll be even less of a difference. Personally, I'm looking for an EV only for in town driving, keeping an ICE for longer trips, so as long as I can get 200 miles, I'm good, I don't need a charging network yet.

They extrapolated those max ranges from Wh/mi and nominal pack capacity. The problem with that is that only 81-83 kWh of the e-tronís ď95 kWhĒ pack is usable.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/insidee...tery-pack/amp/

They also tested in the cold in worst case scenarios.
shikataganai is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2019, 02:21 PM   #1068
dwf137
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
'18 Golf R
'14 Outback

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
They extrapolated those max ranges from Wh/mi and nominal pack capacity. The problem with that is that only 81-83 kWh of the e-tron’s “95 kWh” pack is usable.

They also tested in the cold in worst case scenarios.

If they had extrapolated, they'd be saying the Audi could go farther than it did... 2.04 mpkWh * 95 kWh = 193.8 m... except they're claiming 184. They test drove the car for something like 530 miles, in their admittedly spirited drive - IE how I would drive it. They way I read this article is that they took it on a drive and were able to figure out range... if you read something I missed, please connect those dots, because I'm not connecting them.

Either way - forget the Audi - the range on the Tesla was pretty pathetic compared to what's advertised... And that's my main point. A standardized test is only representative of standard conditions. If you have a lead foot and like to accelerate, perhaps you'll come nowhere near what Tesla advertises. How many lawsuits have we seen over the years where manufacturers have gotten in trouble for advertising the tested value but then the real-life values aren't achievable?

And I don't know about you, but I live in the real world, where some times it gets cold...

Last edited by dwf137; 06-22-2019 at 02:27 PM.
dwf137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2019, 02:34 PM   #1069
shikataganai
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Default

2.04 * 83 << 184. Other tests have shown at most 83 kWh. They didnít measure that range because at that energy usage they wouldnít have been able to go that far.
shikataganai is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2019, 08:18 PM   #1070
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen [email protected]
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

I guess it depends on who is testing it:


This guy's almost got 400 miles out the 370 mile model S

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesl...odel-s-review/

I am actually glad that Audi came out with an EV the future is bright
juanmedina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2019, 05:54 PM   #1071
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen [email protected]
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

juanmedina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2019, 09:28 PM   #1072
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen [email protected]
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

juanmedina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2019, 12:10 PM   #1073
dwf137
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
'18 Golf R
'14 Outback

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
2.04 * 83 << 184. Other tests have shown at most 83 kWh. They didn’t measure that range because at that energy usage they wouldn’t have been able to go that far.
2.04*83=169. Still just not seeing it.

I get that it's unknown as to how they came up with the range, but the mpkWh value seems like it's something that's extremely easy to calculate when you charge up, just like calculating mpg at the pump. If they're seeing almost equivalent mpkWh on both vehicles... that tells me that Tesla's advertised range is basically hypermiilling, not really driving it like a normal vehicle. I have achieved 37 mpg on almost a 100 mile drive in my Golf R, but it was certainly not an enjoyable drive. My day-to-day driving is low 20's...
dwf137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2019, 03:26 PM   #1074
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen [email protected]
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
2.04*83=169. Still just not seeing it.

I get that it's unknown as to how they came up with the range, but the mpkWh value seems like it's something that's extremely easy to calculate when you charge up, just like calculating mpg at the pump. If they're seeing almost equivalent mpkWh on both vehicles... that tells me that Tesla's advertised range is basically hypermiilling, not really driving it like a normal vehicle. I have achieved 37 mpg on almost a 100 mile drive in my Golf R, but it was certainly not an enjoyable drive. My day-to-day driving is low 20's...

The EPA sets the driving profiles....it is not hypermilling.
juanmedina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2019, 04:18 PM   #1075
dwf137
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
'18 Golf R
'14 Outback

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
The EPA sets the driving profiles....it is not hypermilling.
But just like how manufacturers optimize shift points in automatic transmissions for better epa ratings, you don't think Tesla can do the same thing to get better mileage ratings? They absolutely can. Reduce torque outputs for the typical EPA engagement, then allow you to press the pedal just a little more, and there goes your mileage ratings. Audi got caught once cheating the system, you think they're going to do it again? Honestly, I think Audi is just being conservative with their mileage, for obvious reasons...
dwf137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2019 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.