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Old 06-05-2024, 04:25 PM   #4576
juanmedina
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Which one is newer? That’s rhetorical btw.

My goodness. I need to get a licensing deal with Tethla to make underoos. I’ll be able to pay off my mortgage and retire inside of 12 months.
Is that how it works? why are newer competitor models to the Y and the 3 not out selling them ?
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Old 06-05-2024, 05:02 PM   #4577
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Is that how it works? why are newer competitor models to the Y and the 3 not out selling them ?
You don’t seem to understand marketing and hype. That is what drives sales for the idiots, which are greater than 50% of the USDM. They buy vehicles based on some capability a vehicle has, that they will never, ever use, or image reasons, or both. Rivian isn’t as new to market as the Cyberpuck and doesn’t have the hype and sensationalism. Meanwhile, the Rivian truck is the better of the 2.
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Old 06-05-2024, 11:06 PM   #4578
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You don’t seem to understand marketing and hype. That is what drives sales for the idiots, which are greater than 50% of the USDM. They buy vehicles based on some capability a vehicle has, that they will never, ever use, or image reasons, or both. Rivian isn’t as new to market as the Cyberpuck and doesn’t have the hype and sensationalism. Meanwhile, the Rivian truck is the better of the 2.
In your almighty genius, when will the hype for the Cybertruck be gone? I just want to comeback and compare sales number on that date. Thanks.
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Old 06-05-2024, 11:32 PM   #4579
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1. Cybertruck IS the marketing for Tesla. You don't understand that sentence, read it again.
2. Cybertruck debuted nearly 5 years ago. So how long do hype cycles last now?

EDS followed up by CDS. People are literally having a stroke because the truck is super popular and they're selling every one that can make (at the moment). If you don't haul manure on your pig farm with it it's not a real truck! Someone call an ambulance!

They're still pricing the truck to deal with the initial ramp cost, watch how many more they sell when the production ramps and the price drops. Low-end model will break into high 40's to low 50's, eventually.
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Old 06-06-2024, 11:50 AM   #4580
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It will never be that cheap, because unlike the other tesla offerings, this one is not following traditional build processes. The process to get stainless properly lined up and formed, is very expensive. There is a reason other manu's do not use this material. CT will always be expensive, and will probably go up unless raw material costs go down. Which is unlikely given the current political climate.
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Old 06-06-2024, 12:06 PM   #4581
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In your almighty genius, when will the hype for the Cybertruck be gone? I just want to comeback and compare sales number on that date. Thanks.
I don't know. 20 years ago the "it" vehicle for many was a BMW 3 series. Later it would become the Audi. It's an image buy, 100%, because anyone that needs a real truck to do real truck things would buy a Diesel or Gas truck and save themselves tens of thousands of dollars in the process. Vanity/image buy and nothing more.

Someone said it's been 5 years for the Cybertruck? Really? I mean are people this dense? So deliveries to customers started 5 years ago?

The thing was designed as a truck, as the 5th thing of importance. 1-4, striking design, polarizing one way or the other. How long will the sycophants boost it up at $100k-120k? Model 3/Y, are both reasonable in price. How long with the hype train last on a $100k vehicle people don't really need, I don't think anyone knows a date guy.
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Old 06-06-2024, 01:29 PM   #4582
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It will never be that cheap, because unlike the other tesla offerings, this one is not following traditional build processes. The process to get stainless properly lined up and formed, is very expensive. There is a reason other manu's do not use this material. CT will always be expensive, and will probably go up unless raw material costs go down. Which is unlikely given the current political climate.
Panels are unrolled from the coil and formed on a press-brake, and doesn't even need a paint-shop.

The reason other manufacturers aren't using it is because they are dumb and don't have and aerospace metallurgy team on-call. Imagine if GM could get a team from NASA to work on their hard problems. (well NASA in the 1960's)

Stop embarrassing yourself.
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Old 06-06-2024, 07:02 PM   #4583
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Panels are unrolled from the coil and formed on a press-brake, and doesn't even need a paint-shop.

The reason other manufacturers aren't using it is because they are dumb and don't have and aerospace metallurgy team on-call. Imagine if GM could get a team from NASA to work on their hard problems. (well NASA in the 1960's)

Stop embarrassing yourself.
Subaru does. They are actually well known and touted for their "metallurgical" expertise.

That would be in support of cost as Subaru's big motivator of why something is done or not done is cost. If it were cheap......

How many cars in history have been stainless? And successful?
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Old 06-07-2024, 09:16 AM   #4584
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Subaru does. They are actually well known and touted for their "metallurgical" expertise.

That would be in support of cost as Subaru's big motivator of why something is done or not done is cost. If it were cheap......

How many cars in history have been stainless? And successful?
.

That explains all the cracked ring lands.
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Old 06-07-2024, 11:10 AM   #4585
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Panels are unrolled from the coil and formed on a press-brake, and doesn't even need a paint-shop.

The reason other manufacturers aren't using it is because they are dumb and don't have and aerospace metallurgy team on-call. Imagine if GM could get a team from NASA to work on their hard problems. (well NASA in the 1960's)
The reason why “regular” carbon steel has been so consistently utilized in most industries is because of its workability. Whether you’re cutting, forming, welding, machining, stamping, heat treating etc., it has relatively broad room for error and inconsistencies. When it comes to forming, stamping etc., the reason is quite obvious when looking at stress-strain graphs of materials. Carbon steel has a fairly unique property in that after it reaches it’s yield strength it has a large plastic range where new shapes hold quite well (under normal temperatures). This means that when forming/stamping, you can aim for creating/utilizing stresses which are in the mid-range of the plastic zone creating more room for error on the material end (more on that below).

Stainless steel does not exhibit the same plastic properties as regular carbon steel (again quite obvious when looking at stress-strain graphs. This means that there is a MUCH narrower window for error in your material. But what is this “error”?

There are two major areas where “error” can creep in.

The first source of error is the composition of the stainless itself. Just because you purchase a specific grade of a material doesn’t mean it is exactly the same every single time you buy it. 316L for example must meet a RANGE of conditions, again with emphasis on range. There is no such thing as purchasing molecularly perfect iron, chromium, manganese, nickel etc. in bulk. There are always impurities which make each heat/batch unique. And inconsistencies can even occur within the same heat/batch making properties inconsistent within a single coil (for instance). This isn’t just a problem at the steel plant either… It starts at the ore body. A single ore deposit can change its makeup dramatically. The composition of the ore can be different 5 or 10 feet away. So until we can figure out a way to create or “beam Star Trek style” molecularly perfect elements from the ground, each coil when unrolled and stamped is going to perform slightly differently.

The second source of “error” is in the mill tolerances. 14 guage for instance is not an exact thickness. Once again it is a range, and can be impacted in the hot rolling mill by the composition of the material (as per above) and the equipment being used to roll it, and even the environmental conditions at the time. Rollers wear, temperature changes during cooling etc. Again, material thickness can change within the same coil, even if it’s only slightly. These changes in thickness can impact the forming/stamping/bending processes dramatically when using stainless steel.

Can these “errors” be controlled? To an extent the answer is yes (obviously), but it all costs money (as Scrappy quite rightly pointed out). Without some Star Trek technology though, stainless is always going to be more difficult and costly to form than carbon steel.

Furthermore, I’m quite certain that the Cybertruck’s panels are not simply stamped and thrown on the truck. They obviously aren’t painted, but I can virtually guarantee you there is finishing work to be done. Even if the coils came perfectly finished (which they don’t), the distortion caused by the uncoiling/stamping/bending is going to do ugly things to that finish, requiring cleanup.

In short… stainless is far less forgiving than regular carbon steel, leaving far less room for error, making it more expensive to work/process. This is why all those “dumb” auto manufacturers have tended to avoid it. They have done the cost/benefit analysis and it for the time being doesn’t make any sense (for them).

I won’t comment on Scappy’s suggestion the political environment is impacting costs, as I’m not sure what he is specifically referring to. The costs of materials is/are HIGHLY complex and are impacted by many factors. Blaming them on a single government (for instance) is rarely accurate… although can sometimes be true. Panama and Copper being one of those rare current examples.

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Stop embarrassing yourself.
I have done my best over the last 24 years of being on this board to not post condescending remarks. But boy-O does this statement make it difficult. I will resist the urge though and leave that to others. Hopefully/maybe others will also resist that urge, and also that you might reconsider the phrasing of responses moving forward. To me the entire point of forums like this is to share knowledge/experiences rather than try to demean others.

“Some say I’m just a dreamer. But I’m not the only…” (Everybody now!)

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Old 06-07-2024, 03:53 PM   #4586
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The reason why "regular" carbon steel has been so consistently utilized in most industries is because of its workability. Whether you're cutting, forming, welding, machining, stamping, heat treating etc., it has relatively broad room for error and inconsistencies. When it comes to forming, stamping etc., the reason is quite obvious when looking at stress-strain graphs of materials. Carbon steel has a fairly unique property in that after it reaches it's yield strength it has a large plastic range where new shapes hold quite well (under normal temperatures). This means that when forming/stamping, you can aim for creating/utilizing stresses which are in the mid-range of the plastic zone creating more room for error on the material end (more on that below).

Stainless steel does not exhibit the same plastic properties as regular carbon steel (again quite obvious when looking at stress-strain graphs. This means that there is a MUCH narrower window for error in your material. But what is this "error"?

There are two major areas where "error" can creep in.

The first source of error is the composition of the stainless itself. Just because you purchase a specific grade of a material doesn't mean it is exactly the same every single time you buy it. 316L for example must meet a RANGE of conditions, again with emphasis on range. There is no such thing as purchasing molecularly perfect iron, chromium, manganese, nickel etc. in bulk. There are always impurities which make each heat/batch unique. And inconsistencies can even occur within the same heat/batch making properties inconsistent within a single coil (for instance). This isn't just a problem at the steel plant either***8230; It starts at the ore body. A single ore deposit can change its makeup dramatically. The composition of the ore can be different 5 or 10 feet away. So until we can figure out a way to create or "beam Star Trek style" molecularly perfect elements from the ground, each coil when unrolled and stamped is going to perform slightly differently.

The second source of "error" is in the mill tolerances. 14 guage for instance is not an exact thickness. Once again it is a range, and can be impacted in the hot rolling mill by the composition of the material (as per above) and the equipment being used to roll it, and even the environmental conditions at the time. Rollers wear, temperature changes during cooling etc. Again, material thickness can change within the same coil, even if it's only slightly. These changes in thickness can impact the forming/stamping/bending processes dramatically when using stainless steel.

Can these "errors" be controlled? To an extent the answer is yes (obviously), but it all costs money (as Scrappy quite rightly pointed out). Without some Star Trek technology though, stainless is always going to be more difficult and costly to form than carbon steel.

Furthermore, I'm quite certain that the Cybertruck's panels are not simply stamped and thrown on the truck. They obviously aren't painted, but I can virtually guarantee you there is finishing work to be done. Even if the coils came perfectly finished (which they don't), the distortion caused by the uncoiling/stamping/bending is going to do ugly things to that finish, requiring cleanup.

In short***8230; stainless is far less forgiving than regular carbon steel, leaving far less room for error, making it more expensive to work/process. This is why all those "dumb" auto manufacturers have tended to avoid it. They have done the cost/benefit analysis and it for the time being doesn't make any sense (for them).

I won't comment on Scappy's suggestion the political environment is impacting costs, as I'm not sure what he is specifically referring to. The costs of materials is/are HIGHLY complex and are impacted by many factors. Blaming them on a single government (for instance) is rarely accurate***8230; although can sometimes be true. Panama and Copper being one of those rare current examples.



I have done my best over the last 24 years of being on this board to not post condescending remarks. But boy-O does this statement make it difficult. I will resist the urge though and leave that to others. Hopefully/maybe others will also resist that urge, and also that you might reconsider the phrasing of responses moving forward. To me the entire point of forums like this is to share knowledge/experiences rather than try to demean others.

"Some say I'm just a dreamer. But I'm not the only***8230;" (Everybody now!)

Brandon
The point of stainless for the Cybertruck was to make it of a material in which can treat like crap and the truck body would still last centuries. Carbon steel and aluminum cannot provide such requirements. Tesla had to create new manufacturing processes for this custom stainless so it impossible to run a cost analysis because they didn't existed before. Also, so far their production volumes seems like the Cybertruck is ramping up really quickly; faster than the ramp up of the traditional manufactured Rivian R1T.


And talking about Stainless. A rocket made out of stainless impossible it has never done before it should be made out of advance composites like everyone else. Stainless used straight from the coil for a rocket no way; It possibly cannot be good enough for a truck:


https://x.com/WalterIsaacson/status/1799150266740085043

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Old 06-10-2024, 01:38 PM   #4587
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The point of stainless for the Cybertruck was to make it of a material in which can treat like crap and the truck body would still last centuries. Carbon steel and aluminum cannot provide such requirements. Tesla had to create new manufacturing processes for this custom stainless so it impossible to run a cost analysis because they didn't existed before. Also, so far their production volumes seems like the Cybertruck is ramping up really quickly; faster than the ramp up of the traditional manufactured Rivian R1T.


And talking about Stainless. A rocket made out of stainless impossible it has never done before it should be made out of advance composites like everyone else. Stainless used straight from the coil for a rocket no way; It possibly cannot be good enough for a truck:


https://x.com/WalterIsaacson/status/1799150266740085043
your knowledge of rockets is extremely immature. Do you really think other aerospace companies have not used stainless in rocket parts including bodies.

Really?

Do you just believe everything your told?

As for the bolded part. That is why its expensive, and its too early to see if it will ever get cheaper. Repair costs will be high as well. Acting like SS is some novel crazy idea nobody ever thought of, is just rampant fanboi-ism.

Marmite vehicles like the CT always hit with a big splash. Whether they last longer than ripples in a pond remains to be seen. People loved the Aztek too... you see how that went.
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Old 06-10-2024, 01:44 PM   #4588
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IMO, EV's should focus super heavily on being as recyclable as possible. No Cybertruck is going to be derping around in 50+ years like some ICE trucks are at that age. The battery is going to **** the bed at some point and at that point it is going to be more cost effective for the consumer to buy a new one instead of dealing with battery replacement. They need to make these things super recyclable so that when that happens, the raw materials can just go back into circulation. Aluminum is the most easily recyclable material.
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Old 06-10-2024, 10:56 PM   #4589
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your knowledge of rockets is extremely immature. Do you really think other aerospace companies have not used stainless in rocket parts including bodies.

Really?

Do you just believe everything your told?

As for the bolded part. That is why its expensive, and its too early to see if it will ever get cheaper. Repair costs will be high as well. Acting like SS is some novel crazy idea nobody ever thought of, is just rampant fanboi-ism.

Marmite vehicles like the CT always hit with a big splash. Whether they last longer than ripples in a pond remains to be seen. People loved the Aztek too... you see how that went.
yeah I never noticed that my fridge or my microwave made out of stainless before and I wasn't aware of the Delorean . I bet the stainless steel of the failed Atlas and airplanes where also made of 1.8mm thickness harden stainless steel because you know that material is so light . Apples to apples buddy. Believe it or not the Cybertruck requires custom machinery and processes that were invented just for this truck.

The Cybertruck all ready outsold the Hummer EV and will probably will outsell the Rivian R1T T and the F-150 Lighting,; maybe those trucks are the Azteks?
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Old 06-10-2024, 11:10 PM   #4590
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IMO, EV's should focus super heavily on being as recyclable as possible. No Cybertruck is going to be derping around in 50+ years like some ICE trucks are at that age. The battery is going to **** the bed at some point and at that point it is going to be more cost effective for the consumer to buy a new one instead of dealing with battery replacement. They need to make these things super recyclable so that when that happens, the raw materials can just go back into circulation. Aluminum is the most easily recyclable material.
I agree with your point that stuff should be made to be recycled. But to be fair, the 50+ year old trucks derping around have had their share of power train refurbishments over the years. And if they're work trucks it's probably cheaper to replace them with newer ones. Of course, a cybertruck will never be as cool as my dad's old '69 F100 that was black and red.
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Old 06-11-2024, 04:55 PM   #4591
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IMO, EV's should focus super heavily on being as recyclable as possible. No Cybertruck is going to be derping around in 50+ years like some ICE trucks are at that age. The battery is going to **** the bed at some point and at that point it is going to be more cost effective for the consumer to buy a new one instead of dealing with battery replacement. They need to make these things super recyclable so that when that happens, the raw materials can just go back into circulation. Aluminum is the most easily recyclable material.
Just reminded people here say some weird stuff...
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Old 06-11-2024, 05:12 PM   #4592
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yeah I never noticed that my fridge or my microwave made out of stainless before and I wasn't aware of the Delorean . I bet the stainless steel of the failed Atlas and airplanes where also made of 1.8mm thickness harden stainless steel because you know that material is so light . Apples to apples buddy. Believe it or not the Cybertruck requires custom machinery and processes that were invented just for this truck.

The Cybertruck all ready outsold the Hummer EV and will probably will outsell the Rivian R1T T and the F-150 Lighting,; maybe those trucks are the Azteks?
Precisely!!! thanks for proving my point. hardened stainless steel.. BWAHAHA. Stop saying technical things you know nothing of. Hardened stainless steel.. You say that like its impressive. 1.8mm is .070". That is pretty thick sheet metal.

It is a one off production method for ONE and only ONE vehicle. It will never reach the economies of scale needed to drop the price like say a F150 has. Stainless is more expensive in general to start off with. The CT will not get much cheaper any time soon if ever. That is just another Tesla pipe dream.

Was thinking about this over lunch. The CT buyer is the same buyer who bought the ICE Hummer H2 when it came out. A guy who never uses it fully, who is so desperate for attention he will attempt to finance the perception of a personality for 84 months.

Sad really. Do not confuse orders for sales. As of April of this year they had sold what 3800 or so? And they all got recalled.

rough start.

Last edited by SCRAPPYDO; 06-11-2024 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 06-12-2024, 09:29 AM   #4593
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Precisely!!! thanks for proving my point. hardened stainless steel.. BWAHAHA. Stop saying technical things you know nothing of. Hardened stainless steel.. You say that like its impressive. 1.8mm is .070". That is pretty thick sheet metal.

It is a one off production method for ONE and only ONE vehicle. It will never reach the economies of scale needed to drop the price like say a F150 has. Stainless is more expensive in general to start off with. The CT will not get much cheaper any time soon if ever. That is just another Tesla pipe dream.

Was thinking about this over lunch. The CT buyer is the same buyer who bought the ICE Hummer H2 when it came out. A guy who never uses it fully, who is so desperate for attention he will attempt to finance the perception of a personality for 84 months.

Sad really. Do not confuse orders for sales. As of April of this year they had sold what 3800 or so? And they all got recalled.

rough start.
Dude I have worked the automotive industry for almost two decades and currently at a vehicle manufacturer for over a decade. I have designed over a thousand metal components over the years. We work with supplier that supply BMW, Caterpillar and Volvo and I have been to their factories to validate my parts. I am not saying that 1.8mm impressive but it is 2-3x the typical thickness and cannot be formed by traditional methods plus is hardened steel. You are saying that all stainless steels are the same and that is not the case. Try to bend two aluminums of the same thickness and see what happens. 6061-T6 and 5052-O.

"It will never" . The Hummer EV, Rivian R1T and Ford Lighting have never been recalled . The Cybertruck recall has been already completed and it took 15 minutes and many where fixed before the delivery. It is a brand new vehicle and that is not like other OEM have a few issues here and there after the release of a new vehicle.

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Old 06-13-2024, 04:38 PM   #4594
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Old 06-15-2024, 12:16 AM   #4595
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German man says "why buy a Taycan when you could buy this?" I hear Germany has already started the deportation process.
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