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Old 09-26-2019, 08:09 PM   #901
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Quote:
[...]
Subaru had to quash its ambitious plans for forged pistons and connecting rods, due to potential durability concerns that the company now suspects was a non-issue. Nevertheless, Subaru ultimately decided to take no chances with this special, high-profile car, and went with cast components instead, with no resulting loss in horsepower.[...]
https://www.autoblog.com/2019/09/26/...i-s209-review/

That article is misleading; USDM EJ255/EJ257 have had forged crank *AND* forged rods since forever. So, I'm pretty sure that hasn't changed.
Subaru most likely ran into EPA/CARB emissions issues or maybe they figured forged pistons would lead to faster cylinder wear.
IMO, that's disappointing but not too surprising.
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Old 09-26-2019, 09:07 PM   #902
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I can't imagine that Subaru & STI couldn't make the engine durable/reliable with forged pistons

I think the biggest factor for this is that the engine will be significantly cheaper to manufacture since it's no longer hand-built by STI. This should speed up production and reduce manufacturing costs.

Maybe they also have to go through less EPA testing if they retain the same block and only modify engine accessories (ie fuel injectors, turbocharger, air intake, etc.)?

Last edited by WRXnick16; 09-26-2019 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 09-26-2019, 09:14 PM   #903
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I think neg_matic has it right... or close, IMO.
Quote:
Subaru most likely ran into EPA/CARB emissions issues
Forged pistons require larger piston-to-cylinder clearances. There you go... emissions.

Pistons weren't the problem with the EJ anyway.
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Old 09-26-2019, 09:36 PM   #904
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Pistons weren't the problem with the EJ anyway.
Ringland failures?
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Old 09-26-2019, 09:54 PM   #905
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The no loss in power is an interesting tidbit. How much power is it making on Cali 91?
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Old 09-26-2019, 09:58 PM   #906
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Give me a price dammit.
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Old 09-26-2019, 10:01 PM   #907
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Ringland failures?
Didn't have anything to do with being cast.

Forged are good, but they come with baggage. Inevitable damage. Modern cast pistons not so much, and they enable lower emissions.

Forged pistons are part of a racing venue. You can't seriously take a stock S209 racing... they're garage queens now and in the future.
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Old 09-26-2019, 10:28 PM   #908
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Didn't have anything to do with being cast.
It has to do with detonation and Subaru's piston design.

The pistons are hypereutectic aluminum-silicon (Al-Si) alloy which is a high-silicon mix. This gives the pistons extremely low thermal expansion and allows for extremely tight piston-to-bore clearances. The high-silicon content also makes the piston considerably stronger than aluminum itself. But the added strength comes at the cost of being brittle and prone to fracturing.

Forged pistons would be more detonation-resistant and safely allow for higher power levels.

Plenty of other manufacturers use forged pistons. But I understand the emissions issues with an ancient engine like the EJ, larger piston-to-wall clearances and piston ring gaps, and ever-tightening, modern emissions regulations.

If the S209 is a garage queen then the forged pistons won't hurt anything since they'll never see enough mileage for any durability issues

Last edited by WRXnick16; 09-26-2019 at 10:52 PM.
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Old 09-26-2019, 10:53 PM   #909
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And the detonation was due to tuning. Forged would just survive the bad tuning. Trade one problem for another. Seems easier to just tune it right.

Iíve doubled an EJs stock power. Ran on meth. Had hundreds of logging runs while tuning timing. Never had a problem with ringlands.

Idiots gave the EJ a bad name. It wasnít perfect but a long shot better than given credit for.
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Old 09-26-2019, 11:05 PM   #910
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Originally Posted by SeeeeeYa View Post
And the detonation was due to tuning. Forged would just survive the bad tuning. Trade one problem for another. Seems easier to just tune it right.

Iíve doubled an EJs stock power. Ran on meth. Had hundreds of logging runs while tuning timing. Never had a problem with ringlands.

Idiots gave the EJ a bad name. It wasnít perfect but a long shot better than given credit for.
The hundreds of logging runs plus running meth should be your clue. But you still donít see it. Which is fine.
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Old 09-26-2019, 11:18 PM   #911
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I’ve doubled an EJs stock power. Ran on meth. Had hundreds of logging runs while tuning timing. Never had a problem with ringlands.
Are you saying that you would prefer that the S209, or even your car, not come with forged pistons when you're doubling the power output that the factory block was designed for? You would rather roll the dice with cast pistons? and opt for a non handbuilt engine?

Last edited by WRXnick16; 09-26-2019 at 11:27 PM.
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Old 09-27-2019, 02:53 AM   #912
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Definitely disappointing to see it won't come with forged internals but still a cool car nonetheless and makes me feel better about not having one . Hoping the next gen really does take it up a notch and truly set the bar again.
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Old 09-27-2019, 04:20 AM   #913
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Old 09-27-2019, 12:54 PM   #914
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I'm not buying the whole CARB/EPA idea at all; AMG has had 0 issues selling their motors with "fully forged internals" for years - while still meeting CA CARB requirements.

The removal of the forged pistons can most likely be attributed to increased costs of either the parts and or labor to install said parts - all of which drive the price of the car up.

Subaru probably had an epiphany and noted they're trying to charge ///M money for an STi with a "maximum horsepower" of 341.

I'm not hating, still love the car, but a lot of the allure (for me) left with the removal of the forged pistons. We've been making jokes about the EJ for over a decade and yet they're selling us what is effectively the same motor.

I think there's something to be said about them pushing to get the S209 as a '19 MY; I wouldn't be surprised, in the least, if we see an S210 next year and it has forged pistons and it serves as the last hurrah for the Ej257.

Much like the RA was a test bed for "halo" STIs, the S209 will be a test bed for the S models.
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Old 09-27-2019, 01:21 PM   #915
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I'm not buying the whole CARB/EPA idea at all; AMG has had 0 issues selling their motors with "fully forged internals" for years - while still meeting CA CARB requirements.

The removal of the forged pistons can most likely be attributed to increased costs of either the parts and or labor to install said parts - all of which drive the price of the car up.

Subaru probably had an epiphany and noted they're trying to charge ///M money for an STi with a "maximum horsepower" of 341.

I'm not hating, still love the car, but a lot of the allure (for me) left with the removal of the forged pistons. We've been making jokes about the EJ for over a decade and yet they're selling us what is effectively the same motor.

I think there's something to be said about them pushing to get the S209 as a '19 MY; I wouldn't be surprised, in the least, if we see an S210 next year and it has forged pistons and it serves as the last hurrah for the Ej257.

Much like the RA was a test bed for "halo" STIs, the S209 will be a test bed for the S models.
That makes perfect sense to me. Hand building engines is expensive and time consuming for a small shop. The aftermarket has proven that the existing Type RA/19+ STI blocks can handle well over 341 hp. That'll help them meet their already delayed timeline.. otherwise the 2019 S209 may not have made it to dealers before the year 2020.

I just hope the price reflects the lack of forged pistons and hand-built engine. Otherwise it's a hard sell (logically) to justify a $10-15k markup over the Type RA. Regardless of the price, I'm sure the 209 units will sell quickly.
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Old 09-27-2019, 01:32 PM   #916
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Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
That makes perfect sense to me. Hand building engines is expensive and time consuming for a small shop. The aftermarket has proven that the existing Type RA/19+ STI blocks can handle well over 341 hp. That'll help them meet their already delayed timeline.. otherwise the 2019 S209 may not have made it to dealers before the year 2020.

I just hope the price reflects the lack of forged pistons and hand-built engine. Otherwise it's a hard sell (logically) to justify a $10-15k markup over the Type RA. Regardless of the price, I'm sure the 209 units will sell quickly.
Exactly.

What I'm a firm believer of, solely due to the aggressive push for these to launch as a '19 in the end of '19, is that there will be an S210 to send the VA chassis and the EJ257 off with.

We had the Type RA in '18, the S209 in '19 and I'm now quite confident we'll see an S210 at the end of '20.

Why, Subaru sold all their RAs, all 209 S209s will be gone faster than the RAs (obviously) and that'll give them all the business case they could ask for to build a US S210.
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Old 09-27-2019, 01:35 PM   #917
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IMO, Subaru should have offered a hand built bespoke engine and a 3/36 powertrain warranty to offset the costs of tweaking cat placement or adding an injector and re-certifying. Nobody looking to buy would have balked at this idea. The ovaling of the bore would likely never be an issue for a daily driven weekend warrior car for that amount of miles and timeframe. A full track car would never see that amount of miles in that timeframe either.

Subaru second guessing this car is what disappoints me. It's such a low volume 'S' car that deserves the kitchen sink. Buyers deserve the kitchen sink. AMG asks a lot for their cars because they give buyers everything as well as the warranty. This exercise demonstrates how amazing the base STI is for performance and value. Stepping up to the big boys greatly diminishes the performance value because Subaru is unwilling to go the extra mile to match AMG and others.
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Old 09-27-2019, 02:15 PM   #918
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I think neg_matic has it right... or close, IMO.

Forged pistons require larger piston-to-cylinder clearances. There you go... emissions.

Pistons weren't the problem with the EJ anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SatinWhitePearl View Post
I'm not buying the whole CARB/EPA idea at all; AMG has had 0 issues selling their motors with "fully forged internals" for years - while still meeting CA CARB requirements.

The removal of the forged pistons can most likely be attributed to increased costs of either the parts and or labor to install said parts - all of which drive the price of the car up.

Subaru probably had an epiphany and noted they're trying to charge ///M money for an STi with a "maximum horsepower" of 341.

I'm not hating, still love the car, but a lot of the allure (for me) left with the removal of the forged pistons. We've been making jokes about the EJ for over a decade and yet they're selling us what is effectively the same motor.

I think there's something to be said about them pushing to get the S209 as a '19 MY; I wouldn't be surprised, in the least, if we see an S210 next year and it has forged pistons and it serves as the last hurrah for the Ej257.

Much like the RA was a test bed for "halo" STIs, the S209 will be a test bed for the S models.
Here is the thing with the 2.0L MB/AMG engine: it's a long stroker / undersquare design (83 x 92 mm).
It's a much cleaner and much more efficient combustion just because of that undersquare geometry (this is not unique to MB/AMG, many others are using long strokers).
Fitting forged pistons to an engine like that, already as clean as can be, will not completely throw off its emissions profile.
At the opposite end of the spectrum of cleanliness and efficiency, we have our good ol' port injected large bore short stroker EJ25 with a catalytic a mile away from the exhaust ports and it's barely passing cold start emissions as it is with its cast pistons .
Initially, Subaru had to fit a cat in the up-pipe before the turbo closer to the exhaust ports (EJ205), then, Subaru figured out they could improve the efficiency of the "far away " cat after the turbo by injecting air into the exhaust (and get rid of the cat before the turbo in the process).
That was specifically done to help with cold start emissions; that air pump only runs for around 30 secs when the engine is cold and then it never runs again until the engine is dead cold.
That's how bad EJ25 cold start emissions levels already are with cast pistons; add forged pistons to the mix and it's game over, IMO. Just my .02c.
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Old 09-27-2019, 02:37 PM   #919
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.
Initially, Subaru had to fit a cat in the up-pipe before the turbo closer to the exhaust ports (EJ205), then, Subaru figured out they could improve the efficiency of the "far away " cat after the turbo by injecting air into the exhaust (and get rid of the cat before the turbo in the process).
That was specifically done to help with cold start emissions; that air pump only runs for around 30 secs when the engine is cold and then it never runs again until the engine is dead cold.
That's how bad EJ25 cold start emissions levels already are with cast pistons; add forged pistons to the mix and it's game over, IMO. Just my .02c.

Man, that is an expensive part for 30 seconds of blow.
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Old 09-27-2019, 02:39 PM   #920
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Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
Here is the thing with the 2.0L MB/AMG engine: it's a long stroker / undersquare design (83 x 92 mm).
It's a much cleaner and much more efficient combustion just because of that undersquare geometry (this is not unique to MB/AMG, many others are using long strokers).
Fitting forged pistons to an engine like that, already as clean as can be, will not completely throw off its emissions profile.
At the opposite end of the spectrum of cleanliness and efficiency, we have our good ol' port injected large bore short stroker EJ25 with a catalytic a mile away from the exhaust ports and it's barely passing cold start emissions as it is with its cast pistons .
Initially, Subaru had to fit a cat in the up-pipe before the turbo closer to the exhaust ports (EJ205), then, Subaru figured out they could improve the efficiency of the "far away " cat after the turbo by injecting air into the exhaust (and get rid of the cat before the turbo in the process).
That was specifically done to help with cold start emissions; that air pump only runs for around 30 secs when the engine is cold and then it never runs again until the engine is dead cold.
That's how bad EJ25 cold start emissions levels already are with cast pistons; add forged pistons to the mix and it's game over, IMO. Just my .02c.
Solid points, no doubt.

Let me ask, how about Porsche motors though, especially the likes of the GT3 that are flat 6s with forged motors as well?

In addition, if it were truly due to emissions, wouldn't that have long-long been sorted out before the car was revealed in January? I simply am struggling to comprehend just how big of a faux-pas that would be on Subaru's part.

Hey guys, we're going to launch the S209 with a forged bottom-end, but oh - we totally forgot about the ****ing CARB / EPA requirements.

I know the EJ257 is a dinosaur, but they managed to get the RA to live on and they've even got an HKS turbo on the S209 and still got it to be certified; I just think where there's a will there's a way, but it's the cost that killed the pistons.

Subaru will make X on each S209 and dealers will make a small fortune on each one - they're all winning and the consumers are losing on this one.

Again, I think there will be an S210 to send off the EJ257 and VA chassis and I'd be a bit more confident that'll have the forged pistons, we all want, in it. The Ej20 "Final Edition" has a balanced motor to send off the Ej20 - I wouldn't expect anything less for the US market after we've finally got our own S model.
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Old 09-27-2019, 03:00 PM   #921
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I took to Subaru's twitter to ensure they're aware that the lack of forged pistons didn't go unnoticed.

https://twitter.com/subaru_usa/status/1177623968368513027
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Old 09-27-2019, 03:10 PM   #922
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Old 09-27-2019, 03:11 PM   #923
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Thank you, I appreciate it!
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Old 09-27-2019, 04:12 PM   #924
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Solid points, no doubt.

Let me ask, how about Porsche motors though, especially the likes of the GT3 that are flat 6s with forged motors as well?

In addition, if it were truly due to emissions, wouldn't that have long-long been sorted out before the car was revealed in January? I simply am struggling to comprehend just how big of a faux-pas that would be on Subaru's part.

Hey guys, we're going to launch the S209 with a forged bottom-end, but oh - we totally forgot about the ****ing CARB / EPA requirements.

I know the EJ257 is a dinosaur, but they managed to get the RA to live on and they've even got an HKS turbo on the S209 and still got it to be certified; I just think where there's a will there's a way, but it's the cost that killed the pistons.

Subaru will make X on each S209 and dealers will make a small fortune on each one - they're all winning and the consumers are losing on this one.

Again, I think there will be an S210 to send off the EJ257 and VA chassis and I'd be a bit more confident that'll have the forged pistons, we all want, in it. The Ej20 "Final Edition" has a balanced motor to send off the Ej20 - I wouldn't expect anything less for the US market after we've finally got our own S model.
I don't know about the GT3 but, from what I read for the turbo H4 in the 718, using direct injection helps tremendously with achieving a clean burn even with forged pistons.
See here (jump to page 43): https://www.ebsracing.com/files/2017...intro%20lr.pdf
Quote:
[...]
The central injector position and the increase in the fuel pressure (to up to 3625
psi /250 bar) optimize mixture formation and the combustion behavior to such an
extent that it was possible to dispense with the secondary-air injection process
previously used to heat up the catalytic converters. This makes it possible to achieve
lower untreated exhaust gas emissions and to comply with all required exhaust
emission values. [...]
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Old 09-27-2019, 04:49 PM   #925
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Yes the EJ is dirty. Even the FA is dirty. Look for neutered cars with battery assist shared with Toyota in the future. But right now this S car is the pinnacle alpha dirty ass exciting car we all know and love and want from Subaru. Dirty whore ass exciting EJ25 with 25 lbs of glacier melting boost. More of that before the Toyotaficiation and joint ambassadorships ruin NASIOC.

YACK
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