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Old 02-12-2020, 02:49 PM   #51
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I don't get why enthusiasts hate the electronic e-brake. I'm not doing e-brake turns these days, so electronic is fine by me.
Maybe other enthusiasts are?

While I don't really care, an ebrake can still be useful in the snow, and god forbid you'd ever have to use it to stop the car in an emergency, I want the feel and control.

Matter of fact, we use the ebrake at track days all the time when you don't want to stop the car on hot pads after coming off the track. That simple thing alone would make a hand-brake my preference.

Oh, what about wanting to slow-up for cops without lighting up the brake lights?
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Old 02-12-2020, 02:55 PM   #52
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So did Volvo wagons. So did pickup trucks. And on and on.

Does that make them a sports car? IMHO, being a "sports car" has nothing to do with competition. Race cars compete.

Sports cars are generally two seaters, purpose-built (i.e., designed) cars for driving enjoyment. I won't go so far as the convertible-only definition that others use though. BRZ, 911, Miata, MR2, S2000, Z3/4, etc. purpose-built sports cars.

Sports sedans, like U.S. STI or WRX, M3, etc. aren't the same. They are adaptations of practical cars to provide more performance.

Webster Definition of sports car
: a low small usually 2-passenger automobile designed for quick response, easy maneuverability, and high-speed driving

Yes, because the cars underpinning them aren't purpose built for performance/driving dynamics, I think that's a pretty good line of distinction.

If you consider an M3 a sports car, what about an M340? Regular 340? 330? BMW makes a sports car in the Z4 (or whatever it is now), they also make sports sedans (M3).
The bolded part is my definition. I don't care what chassis the car is based on, the number of seats, the number of doors, etc. If it was designed to handle well and drive fast, it's a sports car. Or shall we call it a "sporty" car? Is something like a Raptor a "sports car". No, but is a "sports truck" a thing? Sure. why not. I'm inclusive.

Is the Audi RS3 less of a sports car than the TT-RS just because of the form factor? They're both built on the same "chassis"...
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Old 02-12-2020, 03:04 PM   #53
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I don't get why enthusiasts hate the electronic e-brake. I'm not doing e-brake turns these days, so electronic is fine by me.
You don't have to be an enthusiast to hate it.
Depending on the brand, you might need a scan tool to retract and do your rear brakes.
If your battery dies, you're not moving the car at all.
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Old 02-12-2020, 03:05 PM   #54
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Maybe other enthusiasts are?

While I don't really care, an ebrake can still be useful in the snow, and god forbid you'd ever have to use it to stop the car in an emergency, I want the feel and control.

Matter of fact, we use the ebrake at track days all the time when you don't want to stop the car on hot pads after coming off the track. That simple thing alone would make a hand-brake my preference.

Oh, what about wanting to slow-up for cops without lighting up the brake lights?
I have an electronic e-brake, and I don't care too much. I don't race it, nor do I hoon around like I did as a teenager. In the snow if I want to rotate, I press the gas pedal. I can see wanting one in a hoonmobile or in a dedicated race car. Apart from that though, the electronic one is fine.

Using it to stop in an emergency - pretty sure most are dialed into the ABS system.

Only downside I have found is that depending on the car, it can be more-or-less pointless. In my R, it's located right where an e-brake would have been, so it's all good. Easy and intuitive to find. In our Outback, the thing is up on the dashboard next to the steering wheel. I have to lean forward to reach it. Basically pointless for an "emergency brake", because it forces you to lean forward towards an airbag and steering wheel if there's an emergency...
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Old 02-12-2020, 03:11 PM   #55
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Wiki said the Celica evolved into a sports car so you know it's a sports car.
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Old 02-12-2020, 03:11 PM   #56
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Is the Audi RS3 less of a sports car than the TT-RS just because of the form factor? They're both built on the same "chassis"...
Yes, for sure. How is that even a question?

The TT is a purpose-built sports car, even if the chassis architecture is the same. They don't share the same unibody (everything is moving toward shared platforms). The RS3 is a sports sedan. Basically the A3 unibody with a bigger engine, different suspension and brakes, like an STI.

I agree it's just semantics. But for passing the time...

I don't see how you can call anything a sports car simply because the factory has fitted a sportier suspension on an otherwise non-sports car.

The underlying car was either designed as a sports car, or its not a sports car. It's the clearest way to draw the line.

So the RS3 is a sports car? Is the S3? How about an A3 with a set of coilovers?

Audi makes a couple sports cars, the TT and the R8.
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Old 02-12-2020, 03:18 PM   #57
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The 350/370Z share a platform with the Maxima (at least the old Z did IIRC).

A Maxima with the sports package is clearly not a sports car. The Z clearly is.
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Old 02-12-2020, 03:18 PM   #58
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So the RS3 is a sports car? Is the S3? How about an A3 with a set of coilovers?

Audi makes a couple sports cars, the TT and the R8.
So that makes the base model TT more of a sports car than the RS3?

I'm sorry, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree here... Perhaps my definition is a bit more flexible than yours.
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Old 02-12-2020, 03:26 PM   #59
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I mean... The Celica GT4 production started back in 1986, so... that's kinda like saying the impreza was never a sports car... except the wrx and sti exist...

When I said original, I meant like the 1970s versions were rear wheel drive cars. 1978 was the first Celica Supra, before the race cars.
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Old 02-12-2020, 03:31 PM   #60
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So that makes the base model TT more of a sports car than the RS3?

I'm sorry, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree here... Perhaps my definition is a bit more flexible than yours.
Absolutely. You're thinking in terms of speed and performance.

The most famous sports cars of all time are relatively low-performing vs. other cars. Think, Miata, MG, etc.

Is a Porsche Panamera more of a sports car because it walks all-over a Miata? How about an AMG wagon?

The Miata is the quintessential definition of a sports car. It's a small two-seat toy meant for driving pleasure.

A base Boxster or Cayman is MUCH more of a sports car than an M3 (one is a purpose-built sports car, one is a hopped up sports sedan). Regardless of performance.

I mean, park a WRX next to an Elise, and tell me the WRX is a sports car while keeping a straight face.

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Old 02-12-2020, 03:34 PM   #61
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Is a slushbox Miata still a sports car? How bout the Supra? Getting deep into the minutia of driving pleasure is a paradoxical exercise.
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Old 02-12-2020, 03:43 PM   #62
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Is a slushbox Miata still a sports car? How bout the Supra? Getting deep into the minutia of driving pleasure is a paradoxical exercise.
Of course. One-legged people need sports cars too.
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Old 02-12-2020, 04:03 PM   #63
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I don't get why enthusiasts hate the electronic e-brake. I'm not doing e-brake turns these days, so electronic is fine by me.
I don't speak for everyone but I can tell you why I hate electronic parking brakes.

Primarily it's because I drive in the snow, I use it to control the rear of a car in adverse conditions (no, I don't rely on VSC, because VSC won't rotate the car) and to come to a complete stop on ICE (ABS is not your friend in those conditions).

I also use it daily (hill hold in a MT, I hate the timed hill hold systems).

When I'm loaded down in my FIL's 6MT Frontier and I'm starting uphill, I do the hill hold technique as well - again, wouldn't trust a timed system for what I'm doing there, as I don't want to release the brake until the clutch has grabbed and is starting to slip, where a hill hold will disengage the brakes at a set time OR when you start to release the clutch OR press the gas.

Beyond that, it's another unnecessarily automated item that can and will fail; a cable with a lever and some pulleys is going to have a significantly lower failure rate.

I'm even going to modify the foot actuated parking brake in my car to make it function as a pseudo hand brake (gotta give my clutch foot something to do now that I've only got two pedals).

For informational purposes (since it's been discussed), "most" manufacturers (pretty sure it's all) tie the electronic parking brake into the ABS system; so if you rip the e-parking brake it brings the car to a stop. To release it you typically have to go into park, then release it, then you can go back into drive. Not sure how that system functions on a manual trans car with an e-parking brake as I don't care enough to search the answer out, and won't likely find myself owning that type of car (civic, mazda 3, etc.).
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Old 02-12-2020, 04:06 PM   #64
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The term sports car does not have a finite definition but traditionally associated with 2 seat open top/convertibles. These stemmed from smaller lighter weight vintage era race cars.

The C1 Corvette was inspired by the MG, Jags, and Alfas sports cars of Europe during WWII. When it was introduced, it only came with an AT and was slow. But it's European counter parts weren't particularly fast either but more for driving joy. But of course, it evolved to a high performance sports car.

The Miata is pretty much the last of the traditional post WWII sports car.
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Old 02-12-2020, 04:12 PM   #65
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Absolutely. You're thinking in terms of speed and performance.
Right. I'm function over form. Is it fast and nimble and designed with that in mind? Then it's a sports car. A sports car should be defined by its output, not by it's form. Performance, not size/shape.

People want to get hooked on some historical definition of a "sports car". Manufacturers have blurred the lines with modern vehicles and no longer does a car need to be a tiny two-seater to be given the adjective "sports".

The Miata is a fun car to drive, no doubt. It's a driver's car. But just because something is a "drivers car" does that mean it meets the threshold for a modern sports car? I'd argue no. Perhaps I'm in a serious minority, but that's my viewpoint. Sorry to offend anyone who bought a miata because they could call it a sports car...
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Old 02-12-2020, 04:13 PM   #66
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Of course. One-legged people need sports cars too.
3-legged people can't fit in a Miata.
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Old 02-12-2020, 04:25 PM   #67
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I don't speak for everyone but I can tell you why I hate electronic parking brakes.

Primarily it's because I drive in the snow, I use it to control the rear of a car in adverse conditions (no, I don't rely on VSC, because VSC won't rotate the car) and to come to a complete stop on ICE (ABS is not your friend in those conditions).

I also use it daily (hill hold in a MT, I hate the timed hill hold systems).

When I'm loaded down in my FIL's 6MT Frontier and I'm starting uphill, I do the hill hold technique as well - again, wouldn't trust a timed system for what I'm doing there, as I don't want to release the brake until the clutch has grabbed and is starting to slip, where a hill hold will disengage the brakes at a set time OR when you start to release the clutch OR press the gas.

Beyond that, it's another unnecessarily automated item that can and will fail; a cable with a lever and some pulleys is going to have a significantly lower failure rate.

I'm even going to modify the foot actuated parking brake in my car to make it function as a pseudo hand brake (gotta give my clutch foot something to do now that I've only got two pedals).

For informational purposes (since it's been discussed), "most" manufacturers (pretty sure it's all) tie the electronic parking brake into the ABS system; so if you rip the e-parking brake it brings the car to a stop. To release it you typically have to go into park, then release it, then you can go back into drive. Not sure how that system functions on a manual trans car with an e-parking brake as I don't care enough to search the answer out, and won't likely find myself owning that type of car (civic, mazda 3, etc.).
All programming will be different, and each manufacturer will have a different application. I don't mind the way my R's functions:

For hill starts, I have "auto hold". It's a button I can press any time I want to turn the system on or off. Usually it's off. On steep streets I turn it on because I don't have a normal e-brake. Auto hold just holds the normal brakes in place, it doesn't use the electronic e-brake. Hit the brakes, come to a stop, let off the brakes and you can sit there for an infinite amount of time before it lets go. Not controlled by time. It lets go once the clutch hits a certain engagement point (or hitting the gas in an auto presumably), and it's not jerky like it was in the WRX. I found in my wrx, hill hold assist was annoying as it wouldn't let go until the clutch was already starting to drive the car forward. In the R, it lets go at a good time. The execution is perfect. Not all manufacturers, and especially not subaru, get it right.

If I rip the e-brake in my car, it slams on the brake full force. There is no modulation there. That's sort of a down side. But the second I let it go, the brakes release. It does not bring me to a complete stop. The electronic e-brake in our outback doesn't either - brakes release once you let go of the button... I've tested both. so I'm not sure what cars function the way you describe, but that sounds incredibly dangerous.

I drive in the snow often, but with awd I find the need to swing the rear end around with a brake to be negligible. A quick turn and jab of the gas does the same thing except more predictably.
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Old 02-12-2020, 05:08 PM   #68
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If they come out with a manual, I think I might get this Supra and not the 4 bangah
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Old 02-12-2020, 06:07 PM   #69
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The term sports car does not have a finite definition but traditionally associated with 2 seat open top/convertibles. These stemmed from smaller lighter weight vintage era race cars.

The C1 Corvette was inspired by the MG, Jags, and Alfas sports cars of Europe during WWII. When it was introduced, it only came with an AT and was slow. But it's European counter parts weren't particularly fast either but more for driving joy. But of course, it evolved to a high performance sports car.

The Miata is pretty much the last of the traditional post WWII sports car.
I have a C1. It is ****ing terrifying to change direction in. 40's technology at its best (or worst).
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Old 02-12-2020, 06:13 PM   #70
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I too am NOT a fan of electronic e-brake. Especially on a 2WD car, car guys want brake levers for controlling rotation, not a frikken on/off switch.

My Golf-R has one and since it's AWD and don't do any drifting on the car it's fine (car is smart enough to turn even on slick surface), but VW's electronic brakes are known to seize up after some time leaving people stranded. Not good.
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Old 02-12-2020, 06:23 PM   #71
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3-legged people can't fit in a Miata.
Call me. Or maybe my wife. Whichever.
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Old 02-13-2020, 03:39 PM   #72
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The original Celica was never a sports car. It was a sporty touring coupe like a Prelude, and was RWD at the time. It was for people who couldn't afford a 280X.
The original Celica was a light weight, responsive 2+2, RWD car. Not the exact definition of a sports car, but sport saloons and coupes from the era, are generally now considered sports cars (2002, GTV, RX3, Cortina, Skyline, etc.) Language and definitions evolve over time. Just try telling Manufacturer reps that their SUV is not a SUV because it is not body on frame construction, or based off of a truck platform. ( I have had that argument with them many times)

Even if the very OG Celica wasn't a sports car, the Celica Supra sure was, and by extension I'd say the regular Celica from that time as well, just cause it had a 4 banger instead of the Supra 6 doesn't make it not a sports car. If you use the strictest definition of "sports car" that excludes everything that is not specifically an open top, FR, 2 seater. By that definition the RX7, 911, FRS, and like 9/10ths of all sports cars are not sports cars at all.

Without the Celica, we wouldn't have the Supra, the 3SGTE, or the 2ZZ


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I don't get why enthusiasts hate the electronic e-brake. I'm not doing e-brake turns these days, so electronic is fine by me.
The e brake is supposed to be for emergencies not handbrake turns. If you lose power or hydraulic pressure how is the e brake supposed to operate? Both of those are emergencies in which a traditional e brake would continue to function.
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Old 02-13-2020, 04:13 PM   #73
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The e brake is supposed to be for emergencies not handbrake turns. If you lose power or hydraulic pressure how is the e brake supposed to operate? Both of those are emergencies in which a traditional e brake would continue to function.
I think you need to look up how electronic e-brakes work. They still are a backup that will function if hydraulic pressure is completely lost. They do not use the hydraulic brake fluid at all. If you loose all electricity in a running vehicle, I guess maybe there could be a problem? But How many times will you be in an emergency braking situation when you've lost both hydraulic fluid and electricity? Pretty much never?
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Old 02-13-2020, 06:09 PM   #74
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I think you need to look up how electronic e-brakes work. They still are a backup that will function if hydraulic pressure is completely lost. They do not use the hydraulic brake fluid at all. If you loose all electricity in a running vehicle, I guess maybe there could be a problem? But How many times will you be in an emergency braking situation when you've lost both hydraulic fluid and electricity? Pretty much never?
Vehicles age and deteriorate. The electric e brakes operate as an on off switch, no modulation. Lose hydraulics at a high speed, and the electric e brake if activated will lock the rear wheels. As far as no power, no brakes being a problem, I have had to reach into cars 3 times to to jerk the e brake to stop a slow roll on a car from turning into a run away car. It's easy to miss pushing a button or pulling a switch vs a hand brake sitting jauntily in the upward position looking like a fine safety erection.

Personally my favorite is the fly off hand brake. It works like an e brake except the locking pawl is designed to lock with the push of the button on the lever rather than unlock like a regular e brake. This allows you to use the hand brake as an actual handbrake and is where the term handbrake comes from.

The fly off hand brake is super useful for hill holding, initiating slides and j turns, lightly braking the rear in conjunction with turning in on hairpins, and in the case of single circuit brakes, getting you home when you lose hydraulics. Not as likely with dual circuits but it happens.
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Old 02-13-2020, 06:47 PM   #75
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Vehicles age and deteriorate. The electric e brakes operate as an on off switch, no modulation. Lose hydraulics at a high speed, and the electric e brake if activated will lock the rear wheels. As far as no power, no brakes being a problem, I have had to reach into cars 3 times to to jerk the e brake to stop a slow roll on a car from turning into a run away car. It's easy to miss pushing a button or pulling a switch vs a hand brake sitting jauntily in the upward position looking like a fine safety erection.
Yes, vehicles age. Cables corrode and stretch and break, just like electric motors can eventually fail.

electric e-brakes do not lock the rear wheels up. They're tied into the ABS computer and the motor modulates pressure to avoid locking up the wheel.

I mean, people can hate on them for whatever reason, but if you've never driven a car with one or pressed the button while driving down the road to see how it reacts, maybe at least google electronic e-brake function before you start spouting off incorrect information?
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