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Old 07-16-2017, 11:18 AM   #1
funboi
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Default A CVT WRX will always be faster than manual

I agree. If you are a professional race car driver and you know how to redline the car and drop the clutch and shift perfectly, you will beat a cvt wrx in a 0 to 60. But the fact is, 99.999% are just average drivers with no professional skills at all. So it is actually better to buy a cvt wrx because you will 99.999% of the time smoke a manual wrx. Am i wrong?
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Old 07-16-2017, 11:24 AM   #2
kmfdm86
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Yeah. You are.

It's about driving enjoyment, control and for some, repair costs.

What's the point in being faster if you're bored out of your mind driving the car normally?

Also. As someone who worked in logistics with a fleet of vehicles with CVTs, they do terrible in the mountains and if they break they get pricy quick.

YMMV, etc.
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Old 07-16-2017, 11:33 AM   #3
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You are 110% wrong! Most people can easily to a 5-60 mph run on the street and the WRX is still slightly faster and the trap speed is lower on the CVT which proves at the 1/4 mile the 6-speed is pulling away as speeds increase. If we were talking about a DCT where they are faster in every situation yes but the CVT is slower than the manual WRX in all performance tests and the faster you go in these cars the slower the CVT is;

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ic-test-review
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...al-test-review

2015 w/CVT
Zero to 60 mph: 5.5 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 14.4 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 29.4 sec
Street start, 5-60 mph: 6.4 sec
Standing ╝-mile: 14.3 sec @ 99 mph
Top speed (drag limited): 150 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 156 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.95 g

2015 x/6-speed
Zero to 60 mph: 4.8 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 13.1 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 25.3 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 6.3 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 12.1 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 7.9 sec
Standing ╝-mile: 13.6 sec @ 102 mph
Top speed (gov ltd, mfr's claim): 144 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 160 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.95 g

At 100 mph the CVT is so far behind you wouldn't even be able to read the license plate of the 6-speed model ahead of you. It's pretty obvious that a CVT is simply not a good match for a performance car as automatics are supposed to make the car faster not considerably slower.

Last edited by heavyD; 07-16-2017 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 07-16-2017, 11:41 AM   #4
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Oh Americans and their obsession over the manual transmission…

Fun is fun regardless of how you shift.
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Old 07-16-2017, 11:43 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robschilke View Post
Oh Americans and their obsession over the manual transmissionů

Fun is fun regardless of how you shift.
I drive a Golf R with DSG so it's not like I'm a manual transmission leg humper. It's just that the OP is way off base here as the CVT WRX is slow compared to the 6-speed.
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Old 07-16-2017, 11:52 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmfdm86 View Post
Yeah. You are.

It's about driving enjoyment, control and for some, repair costs.

What's the point in being faster if you're bored out of your mind driving the car normally?

Also. As someone who worked in logistics with a fleet of vehicles with CVTs, they do terrible in the mountains and if they break they get pricy quick.

YMMV, etc.
If automatics is so boring, why has Lamborghini, ferrari stopped manufacturing manual gearboxes? Why would Lamborghini want to bore out their clientele and make them go to sleep? What am i missing?
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Old 07-16-2017, 11:55 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
You are 110% wrong! Most people can easily to a 5-60 mph run on the street and the WRX is still slightly faster and the trap speed is lower on the CVT which proves at the 1/4 mile the 6-speed is pulling away as speeds increase. If we were talking about a DCT where they are faster in every situation yes but the CVT is slower than the manual WRX in all performance tests and the faster you go in these cars the slower the CVT is;

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ic-test-review
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...al-test-review

2015 w/CVT
Zero to 60 mph: 5.5 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 14.4 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 29.4 sec
Street start, 5-60 mph: 6.4 sec
Standing ╝-mile: 14.3 sec @ 99 mph
Top speed (drag limited): 150 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 156 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.95 g

2015 x/6-speed
Zero to 60 mph: 4.8 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 13.1 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 25.3 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 6.3 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 12.1 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 7.9 sec
Standing ╝-mile: 13.6 sec @ 102 mph
Top speed (gov ltd, mfr's claim): 144 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 160 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.95 g

At 100 mph the CVT is so far behind you wouldn't even be able to read the license plate of the 6-speed model ahead of you. It's pretty obvious that a CVT is simply not a good match for a performance car as automatics are supposed to make the car faster not considerably slower.
Not exactly driven by regular drivers as the OP stated.

Take 2 soccer moms and have them run the same tests, likely a bit closer time.
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Old 07-16-2017, 11:59 AM   #8
kmfdm86
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Well, look at their engine sizes... Haha. Plenty of other excitement there.

It's a matter of opinion. If you enjoy driving them, then by all means do it.

If driving engagement and feeling connected to the car and road are important to you and you want to avoid your ECU frying your transmission, then don't do it.

It's definitely not a "always do it this way" sort of situation.
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Old 07-16-2017, 11:59 AM   #9
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Old 07-16-2017, 12:06 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
You are 110% wrong! Most people can easily to a 5-60 mph run on the street and the WRX is still slightly faster and the trap speed is lower on the CVT which proves at the 1/4 mile the 6-speed is pulling away as speeds increase. If we were talking about a DCT where they are faster in every situation yes but the CVT is slower than the manual WRX in all performance tests and the faster you go in these cars the slower the CVT is;

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ic-test-review
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...al-test-review

2015 w/CVT
Zero to 60 mph: 5.5 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 14.4 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 29.4 sec
Street start, 5-60 mph: 6.4 sec
Standing ╝-mile: 14.3 sec @ 99 mph
Top speed (drag limited): 150 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 156 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.95 g

2015 x/6-speed
Zero to 60 mph: 4.8 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 13.1 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 25.3 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 6.3 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 12.1 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 7.9 sec
Standing ╝-mile: 13.6 sec @ 102 mph
Top speed (gov ltd, mfr's claim): 144 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 160 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.95 g

At 100 mph the CVT is so far behind you wouldn't even be able to read the license plate of the 6-speed model ahead of you. It's pretty obvious that a CVT is simply not a good match for a performance car as automatics are supposed to make the car faster not considerably slower.
Are these numbers by professional drivers?

I am speaking of non-professional drivers which is 99% of you guys.
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Old 07-16-2017, 12:17 PM   #11
funboi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmfdm86 View Post
Well, look at their engine sizes... Haha. Plenty of other excitement there.

It's a matter of opinion. If you enjoy driving them, then by all means do it.

If driving engagement and feeling connected to the car and road are important to you and you want to avoid your ECU frying your transmission, then don't do it.

It's definitely not a "always do it this way" sort of situation.
Why would the stock ECU fry the transmission?

The wrx and FXT both have cvt. Shouldn't we be seeing alarming rates of failure by now?
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Old 07-16-2017, 12:19 PM   #12
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I would rather drive an automatic WRX than an automatic other car. I guess a Golf R would be nice too. I just enjoy the Manual experience. Sure it gets tiresome in traffic some times but it's worth it. Plus with you talking about how fast the car is, you have zero bragging rights with an auto. It's the car that is fast. It does all the work. It's funny hearing kids on the Golf R forums talk about how fast they are with a DSG and how they beat this and that. Congratulations, to your car. You did nothing but write a check. Drive what you want but accept the car for what it is.
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Old 07-16-2017, 12:22 PM   #13
kmfdm86
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Sorry, should have specific. I live in the foothills in CO. In my experience, constantly driving CVTs up and down those roads and mountains every day leads to the transmission becoming destroyed. My experience is from a few model years ago (13-14) across a couple brands (Subaru and Jeep mostly) driven by several different couriers. To me, personally, they're boring and I wouldn't want to risk being stuck with that repair bill if it ever failed out of warrant. Happy? Lol.
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Old 07-16-2017, 12:32 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmfdm86 View Post
Sorry, should have specific. I live in the foothills in CO. In my experience, constantly driving CVTs up and down those roads and mountains every day leads to the transmission becoming destroyed. My experience is from a few model years ago (13-14) across a couple brands (Subaru and Jeep mostly) driven by several different couriers. To me, personally, they're boring and I wouldn't want to risk being stuck with that repair bill if it ever failed out of warrant. Happy? Lol.
Do you have any official stats evidence on failure rates? Or just anecdotal evidence on your 0.0001% occurrence?
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Old 07-16-2017, 12:33 PM   #15
heavyD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funboi View Post
Are these numbers by professional drivers?

I am speaking of non-professional drivers which is 99% of you guys.
Those numbers show that non-professional drivers (anyone can do a 5-60 mph run) mashing the gas pedal will be faster in the 6-speed all the way up to top speed. It's indisputable and you have lost this argument. Please don't keep digging a hole here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie-III View Post
Not exactly driven by regular drivers as the OP stated.

Take 2 soccer moms and have them run the same tests, likely a bit closer time.
You let me know when soccer moms start driving their kids to soccer in WRX's and maybe that comment will have some relavance. Besides as long as they could operate a manual they would still be faster in the 6-speed as you don't need to do an aggressive launch to be faster in the 6-speed.
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Old 07-16-2017, 12:40 PM   #16
kmfdm86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
Those numbers show that non-professional drivers (anyone can do a 5-60 mph run) mashing the gas pedal will be faster in the 6-speed all the way up to top speed. It's indisputable and you have lost this argument. Please don't keep digging a hole here.



You let me know when soccer moms start driving their kids to soccer in WRX's and maybe that comment will have some relavance.
He's asking about me talking about CVTs failing.

I have not done any studies or having any numbers. All I have are my personal experience across two unrelated brands and 4 different models of car showing that some CVTs (including Subaru) failed prematurely with extended mountain driving vs other automatic transmissions. It might not even be an issue in the newer ones.

All I'm saying is my personal preferences for driving, combined with not wanting to pay for a premature transmission failure, makes a CVT useless to me. As I said, YMMV.
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Old 07-16-2017, 12:43 PM   #17
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I have nothing against the CVT WRX. It's a good option for people that can't drive a manual or commute in a city with dense traffic. That said please don't try to justify your purchase as a better performance option over the manual version because that's simply misinformation and there's already far too much misinformation on the internet.
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Old 07-16-2017, 01:03 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funboi View Post
Are these numbers by professional drivers?

I am speaking of non-professional drivers which is 99% of you guys.
im not a professional and ill gladly race a stock cvt 0-60 for $500. you in?
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Old 07-16-2017, 01:10 PM   #19
Charlie-III
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
Those numbers show that non-professional drivers (anyone can do a 5-60 mph run) mashing the gas pedal will be faster in the 6-speed all the way up to top speed. It's indisputable and you have lost this argument. Please don't keep digging a hole here.



You let me know when soccer moms start driving their kids to soccer in WRX's and maybe that comment will have some relavance. Besides as long as they could operate a manual they would still be faster in the 6-speed as you don't need to do an aggressive launch to be faster in the 6-speed.
While they "may" not be paid racers, they are not exactly regular drivers either.

My soccer mom comment was more of, get a bunch of regular drivers together and do the tests.
C&D will do multiple runs to get a best time, most regular owners won't treat their car like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
I have nothing against the CVT WRX. It's a good option for people that can't drive a manual or commute in a city with dense traffic. That said please don't try to justify your purchase as a better performance option over the manual version because that's simply misinformation and there's already far too much misinformation on the internet.
I am not for or against a CVT, they have their place and are better than they were.
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Old 07-16-2017, 01:56 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n2oiroc View Post
im not a professional and ill gladly race a stock cvt 0-60 for $500. you in?
it has already been tested. CVT WRX pulls way ahead of MT WRX. Where's my $500?

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Old 07-16-2017, 02:00 PM   #21
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Autos and CVTS aren't the same. ^^

C&D drivers as professional race car drivers.

This whole thread is hilarious. "I don't know how to shift so CVTs are quicker right?"
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Old 07-16-2017, 02:14 PM   #22
funboi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlarryHoodDIT View Post
Autos and CVTS aren't the same. ^^

C&D drivers as professional race car drivers.

This whole thread is hilarious. "I don't know how to shift so CVTs are quicker right?"
All I am saying is that with manual shifting, you introduce human error. In a perfect setting with a professional driver, the MT will smoke the CVT. But with everyday civilian drivers, where they make mistakes and human errors, you can never beat a computer shifting for you.

A professional chessplayer can beat IBM Deep Blue's computer. But 99.9999999% of you guys will never beat a computer.
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Old 07-16-2017, 02:22 PM   #23
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"civilian drivers" I guess racecar drivers are no longer civilians

Comparing shifting transmissions to beating a computer in chess is so insanely off the mark I have no response. Learn how to shift. Well, I guess you got the CVT so you don't have to worry!
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Old 07-16-2017, 02:36 PM   #24
funboi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlarryHoodDIT View Post
"civilian drivers" I guess racecar drivers are no longer civilians

Comparing shifting transmissions to beating a computer in chess is so insanely off the mark I have no response. Learn how to shift. Well, I guess you got the CVT so you don't have to worry!
From an engineering standpoint, gear shifting is actually old technology and it loses a lot of energy thru friction shifting and peak torque when upshifting shifting. I mean, how does it feel that you own a manual box that is pretty much obsolete.

This guy explains it well. CVTs will beat any MT box when done properly.

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Old 07-16-2017, 02:41 PM   #25
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Yes, for that is why NASCAR, Rally Car, AutoX, etc, have all started using CVTS.
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