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Old 06-30-2006, 10:10 AM   #501
Division By Zero
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Update: Recalibrated my LM-1 to read Ethanol (close enough to E85) and stoich is 9:1 idle and I was dangerously lean (oops). It was only 7.9:1 in the upper-end of the rpms. So, I began to richen it up. Got it to 7.4:1 AFR before my freakin' laptop decided it didn't like com ports anymore. I think I'm going to target 6.7:1 AFR for higher boost (say 20-25psi).

Hopefully I'll get the laptop straightened out today so I can continue to remove fuel. I really need a load dyno to do all this on properly, because logging isn't cutting it. It does feel a lot better just adding in the additional fuel though and no knock.
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Old 06-30-2006, 05:13 PM   #502
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I have not tuned E85 on boost, but what I see is power should fall off if you go richer then 7:1. Anywhere from 7 - 8.5:1 is pretty good on E85, which equates to .71-.85ish Lambda.

if your wideband doesn't have a E85 setting, just use lambda so you don't confuse yourself (or us LOL).

Anyone run that rich on E85? I do know Alky is more forgiving of that then gasoline.....

John
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Old 06-30-2006, 09:19 PM   #503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnConnolly
I have not tuned E85 on boost, but what I see is power should fall off if you go richer then 7:1. Anywhere from 7 - 8.5:1 is pretty good on E85, which equates to .71-.85ish Lambda.

if your wideband doesn't have a E85 setting, just use lambda so you don't confuse yourself (or us LOL).

Anyone run that rich on E85? I do know Alky is more forgiving of that then gasoline.....

John
John,

Well, if you're not used to tuning for boost (and bit more of it than some folks are used to), even on gasoline, we (Subaru and some others) tune for 11.5:1 - 10.9:1 AFR for these engines on pump gas. 117 leaded gas you can get away with 12.5:1 -/+. So I'm thinking my 6.7:1 AFR (E85) or so should be pretty close.

I just realized that I must have a leak in my IC piping tonight. My com port issue turned out to be a damaged cable which I replaced. Anyway, I dumped a ton of fuel in after an hour of logging. Damn thing will not richen up and IDC's are 69% running a 255/lph fuel pump and increased FP overstock with 815cc injectors (75lb/hr). Boost is only 19psi and then drops to 16psi. I haven't even tried to increase the boost yet since I haven't got my AFR dialed in.

So, fuel hardware shouldn't be an issue. I did some work recently to the FMIC because of a boost leak but I think I cured one and got another

Todd
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Old 07-01-2006, 12:41 AM   #504
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Temp 93, humidity ~80%, AP stage2 93 map, ~30%e85, the rest 93, downpipe w/no cats, turboxsmuffler.

How do things look? The injectors are maxed, is that why I'm not hitting target boost? Guess I won't be going any higher with the mix until i get new injectors.
Code:
(RPM)  A/FLearn A/FCor Coolant  o2  Throttle  InAirTemp Timing KCInjDutyCyc FuelTemp AccelOpen Man(PSI)WastegFuelPump A/Fcurrent A/FR KnockSig TGV AdvMulti EngLoad ManPres(Corrected) 
1949	4.69	2.34	192.2	0.835	8.24	113	35	0	4.16	114.8	8.2	-9.576	10.2	33.33	0	14.7	0	0	1	0.33	-9.576
1953	5.47	3.91	192.2	0.835	10.2	113	37	0	5.42	114.8	9.77	-8.561	12.94	33.33	0	14.93	0	0	1	0.41	-8.561
1995	5.47	0	192.2	0.805	15.69	113	40	0	7.66	114.8	15.23	-5.659	16.08	33.33	-0.125	14.13	0	0	1	0.63	-5.514
2051	6.25	-0.78	192.2	0.88	18.04	113	39	2	9.19	114.8	19.14	-3.773	16.08	33.33	0	14.7	0	0	1	0.79	-3.773
2134	7.81	0	192.2	0.845	27.45	113	38	3	11.84	114.8	32.81	-1.596	16.86	33.33	-0.125	14.36	0	0	1	0.98	-1.161
2248	8.59	0	192.2	0.795	100	113	29	5	16.3	114.8	99.61	1.306	74.9	33.33	-0.25	13.78	0	0	1	1.25	1.451
2413	8.59	0	192.2	0.94	100	113	27	5	19.56	114.8	99.61	2.612	74.51	66.67	-0.25	13.67	0	0	1	1.38	2.757
2627	10.94	0	192.2	0.95	100	113	25	5	23.54	114.8	99.61	4.208	72.16	66.67	-0.5	12.98	0	0	1	1.54	4.353
2817	10.94	0	192.2	0.96	100	113	22	5	28.24	114.8	99.61	6.239	69.8	66.67	-0.625	12.63	0	0	1	1.74	6.529
3059	10.94	0	192.2	0.975	100	111.2	17	6	41.11	114.8	99.61	9.722	66.67	100	-1.125	11.48	0	0	1	2.14	10.302
3356	10.94	0	192.2	1	100	111.2	14	5	58.7	114.8	99.61	14.8	64.71	100	-1.375	11.14	0	0	1	2.62	15.09
3702	10.94	0	192.2	1.01	100	111.2	14	5	68.71	114.8	99.61	16.396	65.49	100	-1.375	11.14	0	0	1	2.77	16.396
4013	10.94	0	192.2	1.01	100	111.2	17	5	71.91	114.8	99.61	16.251	67.06	100	-1.375	11.14	0	1	1	2.72	16.251
4355	10.94	0	192.2	1.015	100	111.2	17	5	77.11	114.8	99.61	15.816	68.63	100	-1.375	11.14	0	1	1	2.71	15.816
4686	10.94	0	192.2	1.015	100	109.4	18	5	81.97	114.8	99.61	15.816	70.2	100	-1.375	11.14	0	1	1	2.73	15.816
4975	10.94	0	192.2	1.01	100	109.4	19	5	89.15	114.8	99.61	15.671	71.76	100	-1.375	11.14	0	1	1	2.74	15.671
5283	10.94	0	192.2	1.01	100	109.4	19	5	93.54	114.8	99.61	15.525	73.33	100	-1.375	11.14	0	1	1	2.69	15.525
5582	10.94	0	190.4	1.01	100	107.6	20	5	95.27	114.8	99.61	14.945	74.51	100	-1.375	11.14	0	1	1	2.63	14.8
5830	10.94	0	190.4	1.015	100	107.6	20	5	99.5	114.8	99.61	14.22	74.9	100	-1.375	11.14	0	1	1	2.52	14.075
6097	10.94	0	190.4	1.01	100	105.8	22	5	100.16	114.8	99.61	13.639	74.9	100	-1.375	11.14	0	1	1	2.43	13.639
6355	10.94	0	190.4	1.01	100	105.8	23	4	101.68	114.8	99.61	13.204	74.9	100	-1.375	11.14	0	1	1	2.34	13.204
6608	10.94	0	190.4	1.01	100	104	28	4	102.91	114.8	99.61	12.769	74.51	100	-1.375	11.14	0	1	1	2.26	12.914
6830	10.94	0	190.4	1.01	100	104	31	4	103.46	114.8	79.3	12.914	74.9	100	-1.375	11.14	0	1	1	2.2	12.624
6339	10.16	0	188.6	0.92	10.2	104	24	0	4.06	114.8	0	-10.302	0	33.33	-0.75	12.29	0	1	1	0.12	-10.737
 (PSI)
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Old 07-01-2006, 12:04 PM   #505
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Don't use E85 untill you get larger injectors.
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Old 07-01-2006, 02:36 PM   #506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatray
Don't use E85 untill you get larger injectors.
This is on a stage 2, catless STI. Jeez....I sure would have thought there would be more room to grow than that! Is the high injector duty cycle why the boost isn't hitting target?
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Old 07-01-2006, 02:39 PM   #507
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Nah, you can max out stock STi injectors on a stage II setup running 93. Throw ethanol in and you need new injectors.
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Old 07-02-2006, 01:04 AM   #508
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considering I was going mid 9s in my sedan 20 years ago (2L), I think I know how to tune boost.

I just know that on my engines, going richer then 11.5:1 either slowed me down, or was covering up other problems in the engine (intake temps). I do not have much subaru experience, but I'm no rookie to tuning.

I do know that Alky is a lot more forgiving of this then gasoline is though. But you aren't gaining anything by running that rich, it's likely slowing you down, that's all I'm saying. I know some guys will run super-fat so they don't break anything, which is fine INITIALLY but I don't agree with just leaving it there, because you are leaving a lot of power on the table. Running mosquito fogging A/F levels just doesn't make the power, though there is this "conventional wisdom" you need to run super rich on boost to make power, and that's just not true.

I would start fat and then start pulling fuel out until your power levels off then leave it. I've seen a lot of engines that made more power with lower boost and leaner A/Fs, instead of super-boost and super rich.
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Old 07-02-2006, 06:24 PM   #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnConnolly
I would start fat and then start pulling fuel out until your power levels off then leave it. I've seen a lot of engines that made more power with lower boost and leaner A/Fs, instead of super-boost and super rich.
That's the plan I've got to have a start point though and it doesn't make any sense to start off at a nominal AFR when my goal is to steady state tune the car. We're saying the same things though

In Subaru land, just 3-4 years ago, folks did tune rich because it was the "safe" way to go. These days, I believe most have caught on to the idea tuning to power, and not fixed on a specific AFR. Of course ever engine type is going to be different, hence some engines that you have to tune richer due to cooling and other variables.

Todd
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Old 07-02-2006, 09:17 PM   #510
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I do have a Q I have not been able to find the answer to.

Is Ethanol harmful to automotive paint?

John
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Old 07-02-2006, 09:50 PM   #511
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Quote:
Is Ethanol harmful to automotive paint?
I'm not sure a categorical answer to that is possible given all the different types of automotive paint. In E85 I have not seen any damage from minor fuel spills but did not make an effort to test that scenario often

I'd suspect is ranks close to gasoline in that brief exposure should be no problem but long term saturation might be. I would suspect the enamals would do better than the lacquer based paints, but cannot give any more that a SWAG answer on this one.

Larry
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Old 07-02-2006, 10:59 PM   #512
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I'm no chemist (LOL), but I recall brake fluid is also an alcohol, and we know what that does. I'm just trying to find out how careful I have to be filling up LOL
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Old 07-03-2006, 12:05 AM   #513
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On the 2002 WRX minor spills are not a problem based on my unintentional "experiments"

Larry
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Old 07-04-2006, 08:57 PM   #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WR^2X
^^^

I would just like to point out that I knew that, and my percentages were calculated by taking that into account.
lol.....

There are 3 stations easly avaliable in Tucson with E85. I have an 05' RS. I see all this talk about boost ran cars. What would i have to do to run E85 on my RS?
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Old 07-04-2006, 09:28 PM   #515
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Pretty much the same things the rest of us are doing... Although I am not familiar with the size of the RS injectors, so maybe you can run E85 without upgrading the injectors... But I doubt it.
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Old 07-04-2006, 09:33 PM   #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schooby
lol.....

There are 3 stations easly avaliable in Tucson with E85. I have an 05' RS. I see all this talk about boost ran cars. What would i have to do to run E85 on my RS?
440cc WRX injectors. Walbro fuel pump. That should be all you need to convert to E85.

I don't think the RS injector type/size has changed since 99.
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Old 07-04-2006, 09:58 PM   #517
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What would i have to do to run E85 on my RS?
You might want to look at the E85 in my RS thread --- I think it wil answer your questions.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=796466

Larry
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Old 07-07-2006, 06:52 PM   #518
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Interesting thread. I've got a stock 2003 wrx motor in a VW camper. I read in this thread that, at a minimum, the injectors would need to be swapped for larger ones. Has anyone come up with a good setup that allows for swapping between E85 and pure gas when E85 can't be found? Sounds like swapping back to pure gas with bigger injectors doesn't run so well. In a camper used to travel around the country, fuel flexibility is important.

Bryan
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Old 07-07-2006, 07:33 PM   #519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryan_johnson
Interesting thread. I've got a stock 2003 wrx motor in a VW camper. I read in this thread that, at a minimum, the injectors would need to be swapped for larger ones. Has anyone come up with a good setup that allows for swapping between E85 and pure gas when E85 can't be found? Sounds like swapping back to pure gas with bigger injectors doesn't run so well. In a camper used to travel around the country, fuel flexibility is important.

Bryan

It's called EM (Engine Management). If you have the stock ECU then you can run a UTEC over the top of it which allows for switching between many maps. Since you don't need emissions checked in an older vehicle like that (assuming you do not), then you could go with a standalone system. There are quite a few options for these engines.

Todd

P.S. I used to have a '73 bus (w/ '78 2.0L), wish I would've kept it. I think I would have built the motor up for boost and ran a turbo plus EM on it. That would've been pretty cool
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Old 07-07-2006, 07:52 PM   #520
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Yes, a UTEC with the map switch thing would work very well. You could also use a Hydra and use a switch as well.
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Old 07-07-2006, 08:46 PM   #521
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Wow. You guys seem to really like high-priced solutions to a simple problem. All the VW guy needs to do is substitute an adjustable fuel pressure regulator for the stock FPR and upgrade the fuel pump. New injectors and engine management system are unnecessary. "Tuning" the adjustable FPR is easy with an OBD-II scanner - just adjust until LTFT gets small.
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Old 07-07-2006, 09:04 PM   #522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocoa Beach Bum
Wow. You guys seem to really like high-priced solutions to a simple problem. All the VW guy needs to do is substitute an adjustable fuel pressure regulator for the stock FPR and upgrade the fuel pump. New injectors and engine management system are unnecessary. "Tuning" the adjustable FPR is easy with an OBD-II scanner - just adjust until LTFT gets small.
Hamfist tried that in his RS, and burnt up a fuel pump doing it. IIRC he had his fuel pressure at upwards of 80-90 psi to get enough fuel through the injectors.

I think replacing the fuel pump and injectors once, is alot better than changing fuel pumps every few months.

Also, if you are going to use E85 with a WRX engine. You might as well turn up the boost alittle bit or tune in some more agressive timing.

Subaru are not equal to VWs
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Old 07-07-2006, 10:26 PM   #523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master2192
Hamfist tried that in his RS, and burnt up a fuel pump doing it. IIRC he had his fuel pressure at upwards of 80-90 psi to get enough fuel through the injectors.

I think replacing the fuel pump and injectors once, is alot better than changing fuel pumps every few months.

Also, if you are going to use E85 with a WRX engine. You might as well turn up the boost alittle bit or tune in some more agressive timing.

Subaru are not equal to VWs
you can upgrade your injectors and use the FPR to lower the fuel pressure when you cant find E85 and need only gas.

subarus are equal to VW's when your VW has a WRX engine in it, read his post again.
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Old 07-07-2006, 11:43 PM   #524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master2192
Hamfist tried that in his RS, and burnt up a fuel pump doing it. IIRC he had his fuel pressure at upwards of 80-90 psi to get enough fuel through the injectors.
So Hamfist used an inadequate fuel pump. No surprise there.

The ROT for true E85 is that it requires 50% extra fuel (by mass). Most fuels sold as E85 are actually less than 85% ethanol. And ethanol is also slightly heavier than typical gasoline. And if you don't intend to redline (as in the case of VW guy, I suspect), then max flow requirements are further decreased.

80-90 PSI is probably adequate for the above mentioned conditions. Add in boost at your max RPMs and chose a fuel pump accordingly.

Last edited by Cocoa Beach Bum; 07-07-2006 at 11:59 PM.
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Old 07-08-2006, 02:14 AM   #525
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So Hamfist used an inadequate fuel pump. No surprise there.
Not exactly,he was trying to find the cheapest possible solution, as you are suggesting. He jacked up the fuel pressure by restricting the return line on the fuel pressure regulator (creating a very low cost adjustable fuel pressure regulator), but this overstressed his fuel pump.
Of course this was in the NA RS not the WRX.

Not a big surprise because the whole purpose of his experiment was to find out the limits on the cheapest possible solution.

Quote:
The ROT for true E85 is that it requires 50% extra fuel (by mass).
Since fuel injectors meter fuel by volume, you need to think in terms of fuel flow by volume not mass, this works out to about 27-30% more flow. On the WRX, since it is turbo charged, you cannot get all your fuel increase by jacking the fuel pressure because at high boost you will lock up your injectors.

Fuel flow increases at the square root of the change in pressure. To get 1.27x the fuel you need to increase fuel pressure by 1.61 x. With a base fuel pressure of 43 psi as is used on the WRX, that would increase your base fuel pressure to 69.4 psi. Since fuel injectors have a high risk of failure to open properly or locking at fuel pressures over 75 psi this would limit you to a safe boost pressure of 6 psi which is 1/2 of stock boost pressure. So this is not a sensible option, although several of us have used fuel pressure increases to create more head room on the injector size it is not an acceptable solution in and of itself.

Even if it did work, or you were willing to risk losing your engine to a fatal leanout due to a locked up injector, there are very few EFI fuel pumps that are affordable that will sustain adequate flow for the hp outputs most of us are looking for at suitable pressures. (unless you want to spend several hundred dollars for a high end Bosch or racing only aftermarket fuel pump which are some what questionable for long term continuous operation like seen in a street car.)
The Porsche fuel pump has the max pressure capability (dead head 160 psi) you suggest, but costs $300 and has less rated max flow than the $100 walbro most of us are using at more reasonable pressures. The Supra pump has the max rated flow, but stalls at 85-95 psi so would also not be suitable.

Quote:
Most fuels sold as E85 are actually less than 85% ethanol.
Depends on your location and season. Correct in winter months in northern locations, not necessarily true in summer months when there is no good reason to use less than 85% ethanol. The blend will be driven by both weather conditions and current prices for the fuel components. Same as gasoline blends change by season and by changes in blending stock costs.

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 07-08-2006 at 05:16 PM.
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