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Old 09-20-2008, 12:54 AM   #1751
eminehart
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He is using a piggyback system and increases the Maf signal to increase fuel delivery. By not having the ability to run a proper tune, his car was unable to make more horsepower.

E85 will get at least 10% more HP with bigger gains on bigger turbos compared to gas. High Horsepower cars will be able to surpass 107 racing gas.
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Old 09-20-2008, 01:22 AM   #1752
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Actually I could have advanced timing about 4-6 degrees, cause that was what I was pulling off of the stock ECU timing.

However, the lack of fuel kept me nervous, so I left the timing where it was.

I would like to see some other dyno graphs running E85 on 800 cc injectors for comparison.
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Old 09-20-2008, 04:09 AM   #1753
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I am starting to ease over to e85 now, just want a few pointers from you guys. Not many AZ guys running it, so it makes it a bit more difficult. My car is an 05 WRX with a vf22/tial 38mm/pinks.

I am currently running 2 gallons of e85 mixed with the remainder of the tank with 91. I want to eventually go to full e85, but for right now going slowly to learn this new fuel is probably better.

I am curious to what level I can go with the mixing without starting to tune for it. Seems that others have reported you can get up to 33% e85 before the ecu can no longer adjust enough. Would this be the correct number on a modified car as well?

Any help would be appreciated on the road to full e85
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Old 09-20-2008, 10:21 AM   #1754
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First thing first swap those injectors to a minimum of 750. 800cc would probably be better and give you more head room. I am assuming that you have already got a walbro 255.

Mixing 2 gallons of E85 with 10 gallons of 91 will give you slightly more than 93 octane fuel. So that may be helpful. With those injectors and that turbo though, you are going to run out of fuel FAST in the top end. Those injectors will be barely enough for a stage 2 car. Mine on 820cc modded stockers is using around 69% of my injectors at WOT in the upper rpms on E85. That translates to around 565 With the Vf22 you are going to be moving way more air than the td04 and will need larger injectors or you are going to lean out and blow something unless you jack up the fuel pressure...even then I am not sure...jacking it up 20 psi would only yield around 650 cc.

Some of the local guys around here have experimented with mixing and have not found much in the way of performance increases without tuning. Most have actually found their ecu was unhappy and their car seemed to run worse....this is without tuning.
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Old 09-20-2008, 10:23 AM   #1755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddevil View Post
Actually I could have advanced timing about 4-6 degrees, cause that was what I was pulling off of the stock ECU timing.

However, the lack of fuel kept me nervous, so I left the timing where it was.

I would like to see some other dyno graphs running E85 on 800 cc injectors for comparison.
I will have one of a stage 2 set up next month. We have a dyno day set up. Hopefully we can get some stock wrx and Sti to go so we have a baseline...it is a land and sea dyno, so not sure exactly how those compare...some say like a mustang heartbreaker others say higher.
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Old 09-20-2008, 12:15 PM   #1756
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With pe850, walbro fp, 18g turbo running 20 psi, I am hitting mid 90 IDC. Running 100% E85.
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Old 09-20-2008, 02:48 PM   #1757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crashtke View Post
First thing first swap those injectors to a minimum of 750. 800cc would probably be better and give you more head room. I am assuming that you have already got a walbro 255.

Mixing 2 gallons of E85 with 10 gallons of 91 will give you slightly more than 93 octane fuel. So that may be helpful. With those injectors and that turbo though, you are going to run out of fuel FAST in the top end. Those injectors will be barely enough for a stage 2 car. Mine on 820cc modded stockers is using around 69% of my injectors at WOT in the upper rpms on E85. That translates to around 565 With the Vf22 you are going to be moving way more air than the td04 and will need larger injectors or you are going to lean out and blow something unless you jack up the fuel pressure...even then I am not sure...jacking it up 20 psi would only yield around 650 cc.

Some of the local guys around here have experimented with mixing and have not found much in the way of performance increases without tuning. Most have actually found their ecu was unhappy and their car seemed to run worse....this is without tuning.
Ok cool, thank you for that info. I can get ahold of some injectors pretty quickly, I needed them anyway bc they are not really enough for top end of the vf22 on 91.

Looks like some deatschworks 800s are in my near future

The car runs noticeably better with the 2 gallons of e85 now, but then again the AZ piss water gas we get needs all the help it can get. I have an e85 station close to work, but I still fear a little bit to have a tune that requires it in case I ever go on a road trip or something.
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Old 09-20-2008, 08:13 PM   #1758
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Best bet is for now switch back to 91 or whatever, install the new injectors, tune for that (gotta love APv2 and the free tuning software ) and then after you have the injectors dialed in then make the switch...I just went from 93 to almost 100% e85. Make a rough guestimate on the injector scaling...around 30% more (so make them look like 30% smaller injectors) and then data log and see where you are at.
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Old 09-20-2008, 08:21 PM   #1759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddevil View Post
No.

But dont ask me why.

On pump gas I made 400 whp @ 4.9 volts.

On E85, I made 288 @ 4.9 volts.

What it comes down to is the ability to configure the injector size to the MAF, and the ability to scale each to each other, while tuning, mumbo jumbo....

Something is not right with your tune. The air is the same. You should take your boost back to something like 15 or so, find the right A/F and then build it back up. What A/F you tuning for?
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Old 09-20-2008, 08:29 PM   #1760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v8eaterWRX View Post
I am starting to ease over to e85 now, just want a few pointers from you guys. Not many AZ guys running it, so it makes it a bit more difficult. My car is an 05 WRX with a vf22/tial 38mm/pinks.

I am currently running 2 gallons of e85 mixed with the remainder of the tank with 91. I want to eventually go to full e85, but for right now going slowly to learn this new fuel is probably better.

I am curious to what level I can go with the mixing without starting to tune for it. Seems that others have reported you can get up to 33% e85 before the ecu can no longer adjust enough. Would this be the correct number on a modified car as well?

Any help would be appreciated on the road to full e85
I'm running 33% e85 with totally stock injectors in Arizona. (07 Sti) What "helps" is we are at 2600' and the air is somewhat thinner. I think at sea level I'd probably be out of injector. According to the place that did the tune we are at 86% IDC. (Although the AP shows injector dwell at 22ms.)

I started at 25% e85 and when we went to 33%, we picked up 7hp. The tuner said he didn't think we should go any further w/o replacing the injectors. Which I agreed. So a double walbro, adjustable pressure regulator and injectors are next on the list. Just need to find 1200's for my car because that's what I'll eventually get to I'm sure. The problem is I want to run an AEM but they don't make it for the 07 yet.... so I am waiting...... not happily. so the question is, do I wait for the AEM and 1200's or go for 800's and stock ecu with AP. I hate paying twice for the same mod.
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Old 09-23-2008, 10:29 AM   #1761
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Ethanol-Powered Car Ranks Top in Fuel-Efficiency at Shell Eco-Marathon (2006)
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006...lpowered_.html

4000+mpg on ethanol.

Okay, it only went 17mph, and about the size of a coffin, but still it bested the hydrogen cars, and it's sorta cute.... in a caterpillar kind of way.
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Old 09-23-2008, 02:07 PM   #1762
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Or "invasion of the body snatchers" sort of way....
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Old 09-25-2008, 08:15 AM   #1763
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Default Miscanthus produces over 2x the ethanol over corn/switchgrass

These are the kinds of things we will see over the next 20years of research if people just stick with the ethanol as fuel efforts:

http://www.news.uiuc.edu/news/08/0730miscanthus.html

They got about 820 gal of ethanol per acre of this type of grass. (2.5 times as much as corn or switchgrass.)

That's about 12K miles at 15mpg per acre of crop.

Quote:
What was not mentioned were other advantages to growing miscanthus. It is a perennial grass that will, once established, not need to have a tractor working the fields every spring, thus the farmer's fuel need is reduced. Once established, the plants will not need to sprayed with a herbicide, nor will nitrogen need to be applied every spring. More money saved. And due to the nature of the plant, its need for moisture in June and July is not as critical, thus less worry for the farmer.

http://newsgazette.com/news/opinions...ing_miscanthus
More http://www.plant-biology.com/Miscanthus.php

http://www.defra.gov.uk/erdp/pdfs/ec...thus-guide.pdf
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Old 09-25-2008, 08:29 AM   #1764
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More or less, turn key ethanol stills

http://www.revenoor.com/GenWebPage.ihtml?formid=1

http://www.revenoor.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=39&step=4

Now take a solar mirror array and use the heat focused to power the still. So your only cost is for stock. Grow your own.

1984: http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net/ethanoldist.pdf

Last edited by StiLimited; 09-30-2008 at 03:05 AM.
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Old 09-29-2008, 05:07 PM   #1765
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Ok so working with E85 these days and the injector scaling with modded stockers seems to be kinda far off from where it should be. The modded stockers supposedly rang in at 820 cc from witchhunter. But when I scale them at around what they should be for E85, the car barely runs (around 4190 with the AP and ATR)....like If I make them seem smaller and smaller (closer to stock/larger injector number), it runs ok. Currently I have it around 4876 which would be like a 750 cc or a little more injector scaled to flow for E85?

The kicker is that when the ECU makes fueling corrections, it seems like it is always over shooting the target AFR. It either adds too much or not enough...or adds too much then overcompensates the other way. Is this indicative of the scaling being off and maybe I just need to adjust the latency some more?

I really wish latency was real time so I could see how the changes effect things in real time.

Last edited by crashtke; 09-29-2008 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 10-01-2008, 04:29 PM   #1766
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Got my 850s

Now I can get a tune for full e85, no?
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Old 10-01-2008, 04:41 PM   #1767
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With 850s? Most likely.
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Old 10-01-2008, 04:41 PM   #1768
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have a 255 already right?
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Old 10-01-2008, 05:53 PM   #1769
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VF22 with Tial 38mm
deatchworks 850s
255 fuel pump
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Old 10-01-2008, 08:39 PM   #1770
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IHI VF-22 460 CFM at 18.0 PSI

so at that level using the formula provided earlier in the Faq....460/1.45 x 2.0= 634.48cc injectors. More boost= more injector, so you should be fine.
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Old 10-02-2008, 03:32 PM   #1771
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crashtke View Post
IHI VF-22 460 CFM at 18.0 PSI

so at that level using the formula provided earlier in the Faq....460/1.45 x 2.0= 634.48cc injectors. More boost= more injector, so you should be fine.
thank you! i cant wait for it to be ready.

i am going to have two maps made i think so i have one for 91 and one for e85
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Old 10-02-2008, 04:46 PM   #1772
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Going to need 2-3 for E85 alone...3 different blends they use depending on the time of year.
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Old 10-02-2008, 11:20 PM   #1773
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Not really. The stock ECU has fuel trim authority to compensate for the 10-15% difference in seasonal blends.
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Old 10-03-2008, 08:39 AM   #1774
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Not really. The stock ECU has fuel trim authority to compensate for the 10-15% difference in seasonal blends.
Right, but not so sure I still want to run 0.84 lambda on E70 (or less).
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Old 10-03-2008, 02:21 PM   #1775
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Actually you are very close to perfect, as far as fueling:
E70 stoich = 10.53
10.53 x 0.84 = 8.85 which would be somewhere midway between Max Power Rich and Max Power Lean.

I was suggesting to get a good tune on summer blend E85, and then letting your ECU compensate for more petrol in the seasonal blends through its fuel trim authority. More petrol in the winter blends would tend towards more rich mixtures, not leaner mixtures which would increase your safety factor and make cold starts a bit easier.

Code:
Fuel                      AFRst     FARst     Equivalence   Lambda
----                      -----     -----       Ratio       -----
=======================--====================================

Gasoline   stoich          14.7    0.068       1           1
Gasoline Max power rich    12.5    0.08        1.176       0.8503
Gasoline Max power lean    13.23   0.0755      1.111       0.900

=======================--====================================

E85 stoich                 9.765    0.01235    1          1
E85 Max power rich         6.975    0.1434     1.40       0.7143
E85 Max power lean         8.4687   0.118      1.153      0.8673


=======================--====================================

E100 stoich                9.0      0.111      1          1
E100 Max power rich        6.429    0.155      1.4        0.714
E100 Max power lean        7.8      0.128      1.15       0.870


=======================--====================================
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