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Old 02-26-2013, 09:53 AM   #76
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Maybe the car would have benefit from a high rev engine but this car gets his high reviews because of his balance between hp and suspension. Maybe people don't understand that they are actually falling in love with the mix of a flat engine on this chasis.
If we throw a inline engine in there, then probably everybody would complain the car needs uogrades on the handling department to make it work or fun.
There most be a reason for when they measured the time between the new turbo focus and a brz on a hot lap, the difference was less than 5 seconds.
But yes. Probably if this car wasn't paired with scion, then we would se all the parts that we see. We have our own sponsor but scion has their own. Now they work together.
Anyway this probably doesn't belong here but wanted to leave my 2 cents.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:58 AM   #77
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The EJ207 in the JDM STI has always had an 8500rpm redline,
Great, so they can do it. I don't care who makes it...but I'd like to see a racier 4 in the car. Although I'm not bothered by the current engine.

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and people have already raised the rev limiter on the FA20 to 8000rpm without any problems. I wouldn't be surprised if the BRZ STI revs over 8000 as well. The current engine already revs pretty freely and unlike most high revving engines it has enough low end torque for around town driving.
What is the power curve looking like up there though? Falls off cam?

While it's cool people have hacked the ECU and raised the limiter, we're talking about a from-the-factory engine.

Again, not knocking Subaru in any way, shape, or form. But the engine in the car is a hair dull, imho.

And I'm not talking about output. I'm talking about character. I certainly am not the only one with that opinion.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:00 AM   #78
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Maybe the car would have benefit from a high rev engine but this car gets his high reviews because of his balance between hp and suspension. Maybe people don't understand that they are actually falling in love with the mix of a flat engine on this chasis.
I agree a certain % of people would miss the punchier low-end. I agree.

However, many many reviews of the car that I see comment on, while adequate, the engine is a bit dull. And that's not a complaint on HP, but rather in the not-so-sporty power delivery of the engine.

No one thing will suit anyone, that's for sure.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:12 AM   #79
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I agree a certain % of people would miss the punchier low-end. I agree.

However, many many reviews of the car that I see comment on, while adequate, the engine is a bit dull. And that's not a complaint on HP, but rather in the not-so-sporty power delivery of the engine.

No one thing will suit anyone, that's for sure.
Yes you are right. In that hot lap the driver did complain about the lack of hp. This is where aftermarket comes to play.
Maybe if they used a different engine, then this car would be at another price range. And knowing toyota, they would have used something in the 2.0 department.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:25 AM   #80
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Yes you are right. In that hot lap the driver did complain about the lack of hp. This is where aftermarket comes to play.
Maybe if they used a different engine, then this car would be at another price range. And knowing toyota, they would have used something in the 2.0 department.
Again, I'd be ok with 200 HP, but a more racy power delivery. Yes, I know it would be at the expense of tactability, and around-town performance. But so be it.

To me, the engine feels a bit too pedestrian, like it was meant for an Outback. Much like the EJ25...well, maybe that's a bit of an overstatement.

It is not a bad little mill by any stretch of the imagination.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:36 AM   #81
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But in a day and age when cars are getting heavier (unless you resort to exotic materials, which isn't feasible right now for cars in this price range), engines with "racy power delivery" but not a lot of displacement (and likely not a lot of lower end grunt) will make it a pain in the ass at times when trying to get moving, unless you want redlining to be necessary.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:22 PM   #82
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But in a day and age when cars are getting heavier (unless you resort to exotic materials, which isn't feasible right now for cars in this price range), engines with "racy power delivery" but not a lot of displacement (and likely not a lot of lower end grunt) will make it a pain in the ass at times when trying to get moving, unless you want redlining to be necessary.
That's fine, the BRZ is not that. It's light, relatively speaking. As a previous AP1 owner, while it wasn't exactly punchy off idle it was absolutely fine driving around town without having to resort to "redlining". Despite people's complaints and over-statements.

Again, I said that in a daily-driver, I'd take the added low-end. As a weekend toy, however, the high-strung engine is just fine with me.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:31 PM   #83
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But for a lot of people, it's going to play the dual-role of DD and weekend toy. So they have to meet somewhere in the middle, since more people will use it as a DD than only as a weekend toy anyway.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:43 PM   #84
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But for a lot of people, it's going to play the dual-role of DD and weekend toy. So they have to meet somewhere in the middle, since more people will use it as a DD than only as a weekend toy anyway.
Yeah that's actually why I'm glad they took the route they did and kept it NA with nice usable low end torque. Think about your typical turbo 4 like the WRX/STI/EVO. It's a rocketship once the boost kicks in, but before that you may as well be riding a lawn mower. If you take a BRZ and boost it, especially with a supercharger, you'll still have that low end torque for lazy driving, but you can fill in what's missing at the upper RPMs and in the famous torque dip, and end up with a nice big plateau of torque. I think that will be the way to go with this car, once everything is sorted out.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:43 PM   #85
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But for a lot of people, it's going to play the dual-role of DD and weekend toy. So they have to meet somewhere in the middle, since more people will use it as a DD than only as a weekend toy anyway.

Yes, I understand. I said what I'd want in the engine. In addition to stating, repeatedly, that I thought it was OK in present form.
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:38 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by spaceywilly View Post
Yeah that's actually why I'm glad they took the route they did and kept it NA with nice usable low end torque. Think about your typical turbo 4 like the WRX/STI/EVO. It's a rocketship once the boost kicks in, but before that you may as well be riding a lawn mower. If you take a BRZ and boost it, especially with a supercharger, you'll still have that low end torque for lazy driving, but you can fill in what's missing at the upper RPMs and in the famous torque dip, and end up with a nice big plateau of torque. I think that will be the way to go with this car, once everything is sorted out.
That's one of the beauty things of turbos. Different sized turbos (employing different technology) will respond differently than other turbos on different engines (employing different technology). The cars you mention, wrx, sti and evo, they did the best they could with the technology they could afford at the time they were developed.

There are some turbo cars I've driven recently that I was surprised they even had a turbo, if I didn't know better I'd have never known.

All products evolve over time.

the short story is, twin scroll turbo + direct injection + variable timing = max torque can be achieved at like 2000 rpm.

Also worth mentioning is that for those that would mod a car anyway it takes a heck of a lot less money to make a turbo spool faster (offering quicker power delivery) than to make a NA engine have power equal to what a factory turbo can do on a similarly sized engine.

besides, I don't really understand, if you have 2 cars that between 750rpm (call it idle) and 2500rpm that produce the same torque, but one of them has a turbo and produces 50-75 more torque through the rest of the rev range, why is it that the turbo motor that produces more torque through the rev range have less usable torque before the turbo spools, if the two cars have the same torque before that point?

Last edited by samagon; 02-26-2013 at 03:45 PM.
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:44 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by spaceywilly View Post
Yeah that's actually why I'm glad they took the route they did and kept it NA with nice usable low end torque. Think about your typical turbo 4 like the WRX/STI/EVO. It's a rocketship once the boost kicks in, but before that you may as well be riding a lawn mower.
That's a bit of an exaggeration, unless you accelerate a lot from 25 mph in top gear in those cars or expect peak acceleration and response at really low rpms.
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:51 PM   #88
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That's a bit of an exaggeration, unless you accelerate a lot from 25 mph in top gear in those cars or expect peak acceleration and response at really low rpms.
There's one on ramp I take every day to work that is a 90 degree right followed by steep uphill that I take in 2nd gear. My WRX bogs down and doesn't accelerate up the hill so I have to floor it at the top to join traffic, but the BRZ accelerates smoothly up the hill and by the top I am at highway speed.
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:01 PM   #89
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I am glad at least one person understood my comment, it was not a jab at the BZR/FR-S/GT86 or Subaru and their boxer engine. It was just a compliment to Toyota in their ability to build something even more special, with their distinct signature, and that it would be welcomed. These vehicles are Subaru through and through...there is no hiding it. That is not a bad thing, but more variety is never a bad thing either.

Anyone can also see why Subaru and Toyota collaborated on this vehicle...because Toyota was finally looking to capitalize on their investment in Fuji Heavy Industries in a big way...they used Subaru resources to develop a platform that they plan to lean on heavily when it comes to future sports cars...not to benefit aftermarket parts suppliers R&D time...or necessarily benefit Subaru long term for that matter...if either of these two cars was gonna be axed...it would end up being the Subaru first, not the Scion.

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Old 02-27-2013, 10:16 AM   #90
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There's one on ramp I take every day to work that is a 90 degree right followed by steep uphill that I take in 2nd gear. My WRX bogs down and doesn't accelerate up the hill so I have to floor it at the top to join traffic, but the BRZ accelerates smoothly up the hill and by the top I am at highway speed.
Never driven a rex before so I can't say what the tranny is like nor the gear gating, but you're either taking the turn too slow or should be shifting down into first to offset the issue. My 1st gear goes up to ~43mph, so any time I'm below like 30 it goes back into 1st if I anticipate needing acceleration.

I take the exact same kind of on ramp every morning and am going 75-80 before the ramp joins with the interstate.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:24 AM   #91
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Never driven a rex before so I can't say what the tranny is like nor the gear gating, but you're either taking the turn too slow or should be shifting down into first to offset the issue. My 1st gear goes up to ~43mph, so any time I'm below like 30 it goes back into 1st if I anticipate needing acceleration.

I take the exact same kind of on ramp every morning and am going 75-80 before the ramp joins with the interstate.
Clearly you haven't driven a WRX... shifting into 1st while moving is never an option, it just grinds and eventually snaps back and tries to break your wrist.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:31 AM   #92
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Clearly you haven't driven a WRX... shifting into 1st while moving is never an option, it just grinds and eventually snaps back and tries to break your wrist.
I have never used first other than almost complete stop cause i always do brake engine. Now I'm afraid
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:54 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by spaceywilly View Post
There's one on ramp I take every day to work that is a 90 degree right followed by steep uphill that I take in 2nd gear. My WRX bogs down and doesn't accelerate up the hill so I have to floor it at the top to join traffic, but the BRZ accelerates smoothly up the hill and by the top I am at highway speed.
that must be a very steep hill. was it like a 50% grade or something?

I had a wrx, I even kept it stock for a while and I never had any issues accelerating in 2nd gear from 25mph, even uphill.

and yeah, the synchro on first in the wrx doesn't allow downshifting above 10mph, if it's all warmed up.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:45 AM   #94
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Never driven a rex before
Fix that.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:52 AM   #95
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Never driven a rex before
well that explains the screen name..


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Old 02-27-2013, 08:41 PM   #96
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Clearly you haven't driven a WRX... shifting into 1st while moving is never an option, it just grinds and eventually snaps back and tries to break your wrist.
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Originally Posted by DearDiaryJackpot View Post
I have never used first other than almost complete stop cause i always do brake engine. Now I'm afraid
With the 2002 WRX that was definitely a problem. It shouldn't be in a newer one. Your 2013 WRX should have no problem downshifting into 1st, nor should it have a problem with bogging in 2nd around a right hand turn.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:25 AM   #97
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Clearly you haven't driven a WRX... shifting into 1st while moving is never an option, it just grinds and eventually snaps back and tries to break your wrist.
I did it with both my 2002 2.5RS and my 2003 WRX without problems while autocrossing and both my transmissions survived.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:24 AM   #98
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I did it with both my 2002 2.5RS and my 2003 WRX without problems while autocrossing and both my transmissions survived.
I also autocrossed a 98 2.5RS and a 2002 WRX and was able to shift into 1st while moving.

rev matching FTW.
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:03 AM   #99
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I also autocrossed a 98 2.5RS and a 2002 WRX and was able to shift into 1st while moving.

rev matching FTW.
Some cars had it worse than others. I could always make mine work with double clutching but other times it had about a 50/50 shot at working at any speed greater than a gentle roll.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:27 AM   #100
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Probably pretty good. Hood clearance and tuning would be the only issues to work out.
Aside from that whole 180 degree turn on the intake manifolds between the FA and FB motors. Not to mention internals.
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