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Old 03-29-2007, 07:55 PM   #1
legacymaximus
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Default ej22t to EJ20G Coil On Plug

I swapped a ej22t/ej20H engine into my 94 turbo legacy and Matt Monson helped convert the car to Coil on Plug. So, I have it running on cylinder 1 and 4. I have continuity from the ECU Coil Pins 1,2,3,4(10,9,8,7 on F47) to the ignitor pins and the ignitor is getting a good ground. From the pins on the other side of the ignitor, I have continuity to each of the coils, and each of the coils is getting power.(these are to the coil connector). I am not getting the signal for the coils to spark from ignitor to cylinder #2 and 3. I am also not getting a spark signal from the ECU to the ignitor for Coil #3(but it is not the wiring or the ECUs). I have tried two JDM ECUs. Does anyone have any idea about this?
-Max
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Old 03-29-2007, 11:33 PM   #2
gto7419
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I have limited ecu knowledge, but I have a lot of wiring knowledge.

Are you not getting a signal for #3 from either ecu? This is from the ecu to the ignitor? Try to jumper in new wires for 2 and 3...

Are you sure theres not a second ground for 2 and 3 on the ignitor?
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Old 03-30-2007, 12:03 AM   #3
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Pinch off the IAC so that no air leaks through and see what happens. The IAC hac be a weird vacumn leak and cause your problems. IF the ECU sees such a large vacumn leak with the throttle position sensor seeing 0***37;, you can get the damn car to run on 1 cylinder! Long shot, but see what happens.
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Old 03-30-2007, 12:20 AM   #4
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sounds like you made the same mistake I did initially. From my post on coil convertion:
" If you are following from the wiring diagrams, this is a very confusing wire up. The signal pins on the ECU are labeled coil 1, 2, 3, 4. The wiring to the coils are also listed as Coil 1, 2, 3, 4. The trick is that they use different conventions. For the ECU, the pins are labeled in *firing order*. For the coils in the diagram, they are listed as the actual cylinder number"

ECU number | Coil Cylinder
1 | 1
2 | 3
3 | 2
4 | 4


Try swapping around the wiring at the ignitor for 2 and 3.

-Rob
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Old 03-30-2007, 02:38 AM   #5
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Thanks Rob.
What is funny is when I got home at 8:45pm, I looked at your coil conversion thread and saw that, then till now I have been trying to sort it out.

Now my question is about the ignitor. If you look at your picture of the Diamond ignitor in your coil thread, you will see I1,I2,G,I3,I4 on the ECU side. Now on the coil side, it says, E1, E2, E3, E4(I don't know if that is just the pin # or the cylinder #). Can you tell me which cylinders those go to because my wire colors are different, and my diagram reading skills could be better
Thank you so MUCH!!!
-Max

Last edited by legacymaximus; 03-30-2007 at 02:53 AM.
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Old 03-30-2007, 03:42 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legacymaximus View Post
Thanks Rob.
What is funny is when I got home at 8:45pm, I looked at your coil conversion thread and saw that, then till now I have been trying to sort it out.

Now my question is about the ignitor. If you look at your picture of the Diamond ignitor in your coil thread, you will see I1,I2,G,I3,I4 on the ECU side. Now on the coil side, it says, E1, E2, E3, E4(I don't know if that is just the pin # or the cylinder #). Can you tell me which cylinders those go to because my wire colors are different, and my diagram reading skills could be better
Thank you so MUCH!!!
-Max
A quick look at the picture and diagram, it seems like E1,2 3, 4 matches to the cylinder numbers. On the ECU side, the numbers do not match to the ECU firing order numbering. So ECU ign 2 should go to I3 and ECU ign 3 should go to I2. Swap those two and see if solves your problem.

Do you have the wiring diagram for the legacy turbo?

-Rob
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Old 03-30-2007, 11:03 AM   #7
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You are freaking kidding me!!! I must have just gotten lucky on my first swap and correctly wired it at the ECU by accident. I have been pulling my hair out trying to sort this out with Max and if this is the problem I am going to go jump off a bridge...

But this doesn't explain why we don't see and signal when we test it with the multimeter, or does it?
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Old 03-30-2007, 12:11 PM   #8
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Depends what kind of multimeter. The short duration logic pulses are hard to pick up by lower end meters. But if the meter picks up the signals for the other wires just fine, then that's a different story. Did you unplug the ECU and ignitor and check for the wires for shorts to ground and all the other wires in the harnes? That would be my next test if this doesn't fix it.

BTW, if you jump off a bridge, can you will me one of your spare ECUs?
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Old 03-30-2007, 02:02 PM   #9
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car is running on 2 cylinders still after the switch. I am at a loss of what it could be.
-Max
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Old 03-30-2007, 02:17 PM   #10
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speaking of spare ECUs, we did test it with my Z4 ECU that is a known good ECU. It did the same thing as it does on his ECU...
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Old 03-30-2007, 02:30 PM   #11
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First off, how are you verifing which cylinders are getting spark or not? How are you verifiying which pins on the ignitor are getting signals?

Lets' go through it logically;

Combination of ECU sensors -> ECU decides to spark -> pulse to ignitor -> ignitor pulses to Coil -> spark fires.

possible causes:

ECU - you have tried 3 different ECUs, probably can rule this out

Ignitor - Have you tried a known good ignitor? (I have one if you need one to test with)

Coils themselves: If you switch these around does does the problem stay with cyl 2&3? Have you swapped plugs around?

Check to make sure your harness isn't munged. If you can confirm that the ECU signal to the Ignitor is non existent for 2&3, then it's likely something in your harness. Unplug both the ECU and ignitor and check the impedance of the misbehaving wire to ground and to all the other wires in that harness. The ignitor drivers from the ECU are weak drivers and any kind of short circuit will sink all of the ignition pulses on that wire.

If all that passes, then it has to be something up maybe the crank or cam signals. I assume everything was working fine before you let Matt touch it?

-Rob
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Old 03-30-2007, 02:41 PM   #12
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Rob:
Tried multiple ECUs.
Tried multilpe ignitors
Tried multiple coils

Harness is pretty basic since it was already a USDM Legacy turbo and is nearly identical to WRX as far as the ECU is concerned. We used existing 2 wires from the car for 2&4. Added 2 wires for 1&3. IF it was a wiring issue you would think it would be on one pair or the other. It's one cylinder of each pair, which is what is so strange. Power is from the original power wire in the car and feeds all four coils the same way. Ground to the ignitor is also original chassis wire that does test properly as a ground.

Also, in addition to testing which cylinders get spark with the multimeter, we can plug and unplug different coils while the car is idling. It will idle on 2 cylinders, but if we unplug either of the "good" cylinders it dies. If we unplug bad cylinders nothing happens, it just still idles. We are unplugging them at the coil.
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Old 03-30-2007, 03:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
Rob:
Tried multiple ECUs.
Tried multilpe ignitors
Tried multiple coils

Harness is pretty basic since it was already a USDM Legacy turbo and is nearly identical to WRX as far as the ECU is concerned. We used existing 2 wires from the car for 2&4. Added 2 wires for 1&3. IF it was a wiring issue you would think it would be on one pair or the other. It's one cylinder of each pair, which is what is so strange. Power is from the original power wire in the car and feeds all four coils the same way. Ground to the ignitor is also original chassis wire that does test properly as a ground.

Also, in addition to testing which cylinders get spark with the multimeter, we can plug and unplug different coils while the car is idling. It will idle on 2 cylinders, but if we unplug either of the "good" cylinders it dies. If we unplug bad cylinders nothing happens, it just still idles. We are unplugging them at the coil.
Well, if you guarantee the ECU/Ignitor/coils are in perfect working order, then it's either the wiring or the inputs to the ECU.

If it was me, I would cut the four ignitor wires at the ECU connector and solder four new 6-8' wires (22g or bigger is fine) and temporarily run them directly to the ignitor, cutting the harness at the ignitor connector as well. This will eliminate any harness related problems. Cutting wires always makes me feel better when I'm pissed off

How did it run before the coil conversion? Do you have the EJ22T wiring diagrams to share?

-Rob
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Old 03-30-2007, 05:42 PM   #14
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Max pm'd me earlier today and he's going to acquire some USDM WRX coil packs over the weekend and wire those in. This will eliminate the ignitor and most of the other added wiring. So it will get redone. If it's still a problem after that, I will consider the car cursed...
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Old 03-30-2007, 08:09 PM   #15
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I was wondering why he didn't do this in the first place. I have 8 old school coils in my garage and haven proven them to be garbage. What was wrong with the wasted spark setup in the first place?
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Old 04-02-2007, 01:47 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbahus View Post
I was wondering why he didn't do this in the first place. I have 8 old school coils in my garage and haven proven them to be garbage. What was wrong with the wasted spark setup in the first place?
Money, I have ones which seem good, and a good spare but I am not even getting a spark signal to the coils, so they aren't the problem...so far. My friend is selling a set of USDM coils for $200, but it is out of my budget right now. I might be able to swing it in the next couple of weeks if I sell some stuff.

Rob, two of the wires are directly wired from the ECU straight to the ignitor, and 2 and 4 are through the harness. I will work on it more this week when I have time and try to figure out where my problem is.
Thanks for your help. I know it is hard to try and help to diagnose a problem when you can't see the car, but thanks for trying to help!
-Max
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Old 04-02-2007, 01:55 AM   #17
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ive helped/taken a look at this as well with max/matt.

i cant for the life of me figure it out.

we have continuity from the ECU plug to the ignitor, and continuity from the ignitor to the coils


we were supposed to take another look today, but i never got a call

basically i left one night cold, alone, and wanting to curl up in a corner cause we couldnt figure it out.
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Old 04-02-2007, 02:20 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legacymaximus View Post
Money, I have ones which seem good, and a good spare but I am not even getting a spark signal to the coils, so they aren't the problem...so far. My friend is selling a set of USDM coils for $200, but it is out of my budget right now. I might be able to swing it in the next couple of weeks if I sell some stuff.

Rob, two of the wires are directly wired from the ECU straight to the ignitor, and 2 and 4 are through the harness. I will work on it more this week when I have time and try to figure out where my problem is.
Thanks for your help. I know it is hard to try and help to diagnose a problem when you can't see the car, but thanks for trying to help!
-Max
Yeah I'm dying over here. If only I had an excuse to come out to FC for work again. Remind me again, your car was running just fine before you attempted the ignition change over?

I have 3 used WRX coils I'll let go on the cheap. Shoot me a PM.
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Old 04-02-2007, 02:32 AM   #19
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After reading this, the way I see it is that even with the wrx coils it's still going to do it because there is no signal. Like Rob said, if it was mine I would cut the wires back by the ecu and run some jumpers out the window into the engine bay and see if it works. Sounds like you have tried everything else.

Could the cam/crank pos sensor be defective? Do you have the proper sprocket for timing on the crank?
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:12 AM   #20
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well, heres the real deal.

its not firing on 2 cylinders.

BUT

from what we can tell, the ingnition signal to Cyl 3 is the only one thats not giving us any voltage. (set to record max voltage) every cyl minus 3 gave us consistent signal.

add that to trying it with 2 ECUs AND continuity through every wire.
so it should be firing on 3 cylinders, but alas...

[sandlot] Pickle!!!!!!!!! [/sandlot]
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Old 04-02-2007, 09:27 AM   #21
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what you really need is a scope to look at the signal

is it a shielded wire ..
are you using the LT wires for the 2 working cyls
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Old 04-02-2007, 10:32 AM   #22
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I have some crazy old school meters in my garage somewhere, there might be an oscilloscope in there. I will check when I get home from work tonight.
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Old 04-02-2007, 10:37 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurley 2.5 WRS View Post
well, heres the real deal.

its not firing on 2 cylinders.

BUT

from what we can tell, the ingnition signal to Cyl 3 is the only one thats not giving us any voltage. (set to record max voltage) every cyl minus 3 gave us consistent signal.

add that to trying it with 2 ECUs AND continuity through every wire.
so it should be firing on 3 cylinders, but alas...

[sandlot] Pickle!!!!!!!!! [/sandlot]

Have you checked continuity across the ECU connector for Cyl #3? Perhaps the pin inside it damaged?
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Old 04-02-2007, 11:13 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbahus View Post

Could the cam/crank pos sensor be defective? Do you have the proper sprocket for timing on the crank?
I took the sprocket from the twin turbo ej20H engine I got and compared it to a standard US one and there was no difference. Are there any differences between any of the EJ sprockets, because I have never seen any between USDM ones? I did replace and hard wired the cam and crank sensor because on a 170,XXX ej22t, the harness side of the crank/cam sensor wiring was toast(It would crack if I bent it). I found a parts ej22 harness at my work and used the crank/cam wiring from that. I just replaced the original cam/crank sensor pins with the ones from the other harness. I have replaced the crank sensor with no change. I thought that if the crank sensor wasn't liking something, it would send No signals to spark or injector. I checked before i put the sprocket on to make sure it was good, but it was a US one(because I saw no difference between the ej20H and the US ones). I will go pull the codes again and see what I get.
-Max
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Old 04-02-2007, 11:29 AM   #25
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Sorry Rob, Yes all electrical was working properly before the conversion. The engine was borked but the car also ran fine before the engine was screwed.
-Max

Last edited by legacymaximus; 04-02-2007 at 11:55 AM. Reason: stupidity
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