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Old 01-16-2019, 10:00 PM   #701
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Originally Posted by thill View Post
Interesting he did note the 341hp rating is based on 77 degrees farenheight and the use of the intercooler water spray. Subaru would not give the HP rating if you did not use the spray butbthey said it would be less.
for the GD's they said the intercooler spray was worth 2 tenths in the 1/4 mile....in the marketing back then. Road and Track and Car and Driver both got 12.9-13.0 flat, in the quarter back then.
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Old 01-16-2019, 10:10 PM   #702
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From R&T's article:


So either the spokesperson was trying to avoid any information on a new motor (i.e. FA) or there will be some more updates to the STI motor for the base STI or another special edition.
I think that's pretty straight forward. They have another Ej version coming with additional mods and power...before they no longer use it in production.
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Old 01-16-2019, 10:47 PM   #703
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I think that's pretty straight forward. They have another Ej version coming with additional mods and power...before they no longer use it in production.
Right because the earliest we are likely to see a new STI is likely MY2021.
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Old 01-16-2019, 11:47 PM   #704
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That math means nothing without knowing the efficiency limits of that larger turbo, and how much the boost can be increased before there isnt any more gain in horsepower even if its 21 Lbs for example that's a solid 30 horsepower that is waiting to be unleashed in a simple tune to bump the boost.

340 crank horsepower is typically what a 3" downpipe and tune @18 Lbs will support on a base EJ. Yet the S209 has a larger turbo injectors, pump etc etc. Theres probably 30 horsepower in just a tune sitting there and another 30 with a highflow downpipe and tune. Now we are at 400 horsepower.

What is obvious from all the assuming going on in that breakdown of the power increase in the video is that the ECU tune that they gave the S209 is probably leaving a LOT of power off the table for U.S. fuel economy and emmissions. Seems the fact that they put a bigger turbo and larger injectors and fuel pump and "only" made 341 peak horsepower @ 18lbs of boost is very telling. Without using a larger downpipe those upgrades are going to be limited and that explains the relatively moderate peak advertised number given the upgrades they gave it.

Given that the 2019 base puts has a smaller turbine and compressor and the horsepower is rated at approx. 16. lbs of boost and the S209 has an increase @ 18 lbs that alone is worth roughly 15-20 horsepower. A simple tune to bump the boost on the S209 to 19-20 and fuel and timing to match should theoretically ad an additional 20-30 horsepower...so now we are talking 360 horsepower...…...bolt on a 3" downpipe with highflow cat and tune for that and your looking at 390-400 horsepower. I think those that take advantage of this and dyno tune these things will be reporting those types of numbers.


This is the math that matters for us and most are overlooking and being too anal about the advertised numbers, not realizing that the hardware on this engine is going to be able to support tuning that will make this engine put out more power per mod than any previous STI.

It appears to me anyway that they put that engine together to be able to pump out 400 horsepower with a 3" high flow downpipe and tune to compliment it. If its the same downpipe that comes on the base STI's than that thing is REALLY corked up and left a LOT off the table.
The 18 psi they mentionned is most likely for peak boost at, or near, peak TORQUE; not anywhere near peak HP.
Most EJ255 will make nearly 350 crank HP with only 15 to 16 psi at redline (VF39/VF43/VF48) with stock injectors pretty much maxed out (larger than stock pump required).
So, for roughly 340hp, I'd expect boost to taper down from 18 psi (near peak torque in the midrange) to maybe 14 to 15 psi near redline (compared to anywhere between 10 to 12 psi, maybe for a "regular" 310 hp STI).
Depending on whether or not the new injectors have enough capacity, holding 18 psi all the way to redline *might* yield nearly 380 crank hp (assuming decent compressor efficiency way up there in the rev range).
Point is, there's no need to run 18 psi to redline to make 340 hp; 15 psi is probably enough.
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Old 01-17-2019, 12:50 AM   #705
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Agree with you across the board, but I don't have a good feeling about Subaru bringing lots of new tech and maintaining a starting MSRP under $40k as per typical STI. I suppose I doubt they'll bring lots of new tech at all.

New engine is a given, but beyond that I think any meaningful jumps in tech will hit the MSRP directly. Auto trans option is most likely new thing. Even if they go CVT (shameful/sad) it will result in a lot of new sales. Either way, 100% cost adder to MSRP.

That drivetrain is so ancient, any change will be a price bump. It's an ideal motorsports drivetrain as it is now anyhow. A fancy computer diff would be great for new hotness factor and improving refinement+efficiency without sacrificing track capability. So I wouldn't rule it out. I can't see Subaru pulling one of those off though. They would sooner make some mostly inconsequential tweak to the existing system, create a new acronym for it and make a big deal out of it. Save money, get most of the marketing effect.

Lastly is hybrid. Thinking about this is where I realize any speculation about the next STI, indeed all of what I've written has been a solid waste of time. We'll end up convinced that the next STI will be a mini 4-door NSX. Meanwhile it'll end up with a 325hp EJ and no other functional differences aside from the latest interior inherited from SGP Impreza and the usual "60% stiffer chassis." Which it's like, at what point after 5 generations of stiffer and stiffer chassis do these things essentially approach infinity stiffness? If you follow the stiffness claims backward you'd think the 90's Impreza was an inflatable raft with a piece of 1/4" plywood laid down in the hull for reinforcement.

Oh the hybrid - the only thing that makes sense to me is to have a hierarchy of new SGP WRX family:

WRX gets power bump, nothing else really different, start under $30k >
LEVORGGG otherwise same as WRX, $2k premium for wagon as was typical before sedanocalypse >
WRX Hybrid CVT only but as quick as old STI under $40k but probably only available loaded around $40k >
STI no hybrid but now with 350hp DIT and AT option, almost as fast as S209 around and above $40k

We'd be lucky if we get a single new thing mentioned above. Sorry for brain dump.


Dont be sorry... got a good laugh out of the stiffness rambling lmao
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Old 03-14-2019, 07:28 AM   #706
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Default 2019 Subaru WRX STI S209 Is Actually Built By STI



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2019 Subaru WRX STI S209 Is Actually Built By STI
The 2020 WRX STI S209 may resemble the rally sedan you can buy at Subaru dealers across the country, but it's not actually a Subaru. As Jalopnik explains, it's actually an STI—not a Subaru.

The S209 is so significantly modified compared with a regular WRX STI, its assembly has to be completed at STI's facility. Each of the 200 S209s planned to be built start life as regular WRX STIs on Subaru's regular production line, but upon completion, they're sent to STI's facility for final assembly. There, STI fits upgrades including wider fenders housing 19x9-inch BBS wheels with 265-section Dunlop track tires, drawer stiffeners, and a clever flexible front strut tower brace. The S209 also gets a significantly revised version of Subaru's stalwart EJ25 flat-four that's been cranked up from 305 to 341 horsepower. Jalopnik previously reported that the S209 even had to be homologated for sale in the US as an STI rather than as a Subaru.

Why go through all this effort? As Jalopnik explains, it has to do with the production standards for regular Subaru cars. For example, the Japanese company has requirements on how much space there is between a tire and bodywork. That requirement could force STI use a smaller tire size or a different alignment than what it wants. Building high-performance models in house at a separate factory means this isn't an issue, though.

STI has built limited-run high-performance cars at its own facility before, but the S209 is the first time one will come to the US officially. Despite what the name could imply, the WRX STI is really just a regular-production Subaru.

Given all of this, expect the S209 to be expensive. You thought the $50,000 WRX STI Type RA from 2018 was too much? The S209 probably isn't for you then, though Subaru has yet to announce pricing.


https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...-not-a-subaru/

The 2020 Subaru WRX STI S209 Isn’t Technically Built By Subaru
Aaron Brown

Image: Aaron Brown/Jalopnik
The new Subaru WRX STI S209 is unlike any other car the automaker has ever sold in America. Not because it’s the fastest or the most expensive, but rather, because it’s not technically a Subaru.

The 341-hp STI S209, which debuted at the Detroit Auto Show in January, is Subaru’s fastest STI model yet, it will probably be the most expensive model yet, and it’s the first S-line car to make its way to our shores. In case you’re not completely dialed into obscure, special edition STI models, the first of the S-line family was the S201 in 2001.

STI’s first car of its own was the Subaru Legacy RS Type RA, which came around in 1992.

The thing that’s weird about the S209 though, for us Americans at least, is that it’s not actually built by Subaru. We’re used to STI being just a trim, a model. But the S209 is different.

As the Japanese automaker’s North American business planner Yoshihide Yano told me, that’s because Subaru’s production quality standards can get in the way of how STI wants to build sports cars, like the S209. Unlike the normal WRX STI models that we’ve been getting in America since 2004, the S209 is first assembled by Subaru, and then shipped off to STI’s assembly facility to have the job completed. That’s a different factory, as Subaru notes in its press materials. The location is Subaru’s Kiryu-Kougo subsidiary, which is maybe better known for making fire department vehicles and other specialty cars.


Image: Justin Westbrook/Jalopnik
“There’s a certain technical standard to build a car… There are many different ways people enjoy their cars,” Yano told us in an interview. “[For example,] people will start complaining if you have a narrow space between the wheels and the body,” he said, probably referring to wide tires and more aggressive stance on performance cars.

“Snow [would get] stuck. Because of that, Subaru has standards [for production]... If you have those standards, you can’t push harder and have a higher performance car.”


Production at Subaru’s Gunma assembly plant in 2015.
Screenshot: Subaru/YouTube
The way Subaru explains the production process is that the cars—in this case, WRX STIs—start off on a normal Subaru production line, but when it’s completed, it gets shipped off and “sold” to STI. Unlike for the normal WRX STI models, which finish assembly at the main Subaru production facility.

Once in the performance brand’s hands, the cars get fitted with the new performance parts—parts like its new 19x9 STI BBS wheels, its unique 265/35R19 Dunlop GT 600 performance tires, and its flexible front-strut tower bar and flexible front and rear draw stiffeners.


STI’s rear flexible draw stiffener fitted to the S209 show car at the Detroit Auto Show in January 2019.
Photo: Aaron Brown/Jalopnik
“Subaru has their own ways, set up for mass production, but there are particular areas [of focus] people want for performance cars. Having STI focused more on performance standards will let us try harder for performance.”

Because of these production differences for the new S-line model, the car had to get homologated by STI to be sold legally in America. When the S209 was first unveiled in January, our own Raphael Orlove explained what STI had to do to make the car legal:

Subaru went through the trouble of certifying the S209 for sale here, though why that is is not abundantly clear. “I’m not exactly sure,” as a Subaru representative told us on the auto show floor, “but it’s been very, very difficult. This car was modified, and all of the S-series were modified in a way that ‘substantially deviated’ from what the normal production car was, which meant that to bring it to the U.S., it required a full homologation to come over here.”

Homologation like that is no small undertaking. Crash testing and emissions testing are involved, and it’s the kind of thing that can quash a small business looking to import a car. Nissan Skyline GT-R fans will be seeing “Motorex” flash before their eyes right about now.

STI is only capable of building five cars a day when at maximum capacity. Takatsu said that with S209 production, they can pump out just two cars a day. For comparison, Subaru’s Gunma assembly plant, the factory where the normal WRX STI is built, is capable of building more than 900 cars a day, according to Launch Control in 2015. The plant can fully churn out an STI in 20 hours.

If you’re interested in how more normal Subaru and STI production in Japan happens, check out this Launch Control video and skip to around the 10:40 mark.

Where that video doesn’t go is Kiryu-Kougyo, showing how much slower and more specialty that line is.

Masuo Takatsu, STI’s general manager of product planning and development and the project manager for the current-generation WRX and WRX STI before jumping from Subaru to STI, also explained that though this is the current procedure for S-line cars, it might not be that way forever.


Masuo Takatsu during an interview with Jalopnik at Fuji International Speedway in March 2019
Photo: Aaron Brown/Jalopnik
“Eventually, in the future, it might be possible [to do the STI modifications on the Subaru production line],” Takatsu said via a translator. “Looking at the assembly line for mass production, there are huge limitations. There’s a takt time you have to keep. Can you do draw stiffeners, can you do the flexible tower bar?…that’s not going to happen for the mass production line.”

https://jalopnik.com/why-the-subaru-...-by-1833222126


Why America's First 'S-Series' Subaru STI S209 Is So Special
Raphael Orlove
At a glance, the gleaming white show car at Subaru’s stand at the Detroit Auto Show looks like any other fast STI. Big wing, big flares. But the Subaru WRX STI S209 is more special than that. It’s part of an elite class of Subarus, and it’s the first of its kind to come to America.

These are what Subaru calls S-series. It’s not a particularly catchy name, but it’s as convenient a catch-all as you’re going to get for a series of extreme road cars. There was the S201, S202, S203, S204, S205, S206, S207, S208, and now the new S209. Here they are in order, from S201 up.
Go to link for all the photos from first to last STI’s

[img]data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAAAAACH5BAEKAAEALAAAAAABAAE AAAICTAEAOw==[/img]

At each turn, you were looking at the peak of STI performance, as fast as Subaru was going to make these cars and maintain its feeling of responsibility. As much as “responsibility” and “Subaru WRX STI” can ever go together.

These low-volume high-performance models were never homologated for sale here in the United States, and as such we never had a chance to import them thanks to our draconian 25 Year Rule.

But Subaru went through the trouble of certifying the S209 for sale here, though why that is is not abundantly clear. “I’m not exactly sure,” as a Subaru representative told us on the auto show floor, “but it’s been very, very difficult. This car was modified, and all of the S-series were modified in a way that ‘substantially deviated’ from what the normal production car was, which meant that to bring it to the U.S., it required a full homologation to come over here.”

Homologation like that is no small undertaking. Crash testing and emissions testing are involved, and it’s the kind of thing that can quash a small business looking to import a car. Nissan Skyline GT-R fans will be seeing “Motorex” flash before their eyes right about now.

I don’t know why now Subaru decided we deserved this car, but I’m glad that we will get to enjoy its 341 horsepower, factory widebody, and all-conquering all-wheel drive.

Video at link

https://jalopnik.com/why-americas-fi...eci-1831997132




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Old 03-14-2019, 03:35 PM   #707
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This is what the STI should have been.


No, not paying 50k for a Subaru. That is lightly used post initial depreciation M2 territory.
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Old 03-14-2019, 10:12 PM   #708
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WRB S209 Dark Gray wheels...Nice!!!
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Old 03-14-2019, 10:39 PM   #709
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This is what the STI should have been.


No, not paying 50k for a Subaru. That is lightly used post initial depreciation M2 territory.
Don't worry they are not counted on you to buy it. 200 other people did. Also, it's a bargain for what you get. Unlike the M cars.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:59 AM   #710
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Also, it's a bargain for what you get. Unlike the M cars.
Ehhh, you ever drive a new M3? Its quite the brute of a car.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:52 AM   #711
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What are those balloon animals taped to the fenders?
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:12 PM   #712
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What are those balloon animals taped to the fenders?
I hear balloon animals kits from Party City work great as fender flares.
You have to keep these 265 tires tucked in somehow .
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:26 PM   #713
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Ehhh, you ever drive a new M3? Its quite the brute of a car.
I have, but being a brute of a car wasn't the criterion for the discussion.
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Old 03-15-2019, 03:27 PM   #714
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Don't worry they are not counted on you to buy it. 200 other people did. Also, it's a bargain for what you get. Unlike the M cars.
How so is it a bargain? $50k for ancient EJ257 engine. Same drive-train as any STI sold over the last 15 years. Same interior as any STI. The CF roof is the big ticket item but you are kidding yourself if you think that warrants the massive price increase over a regular STI. It's still slower than an any M car in a straight line or around a track. Its a car for the most extreme Subaru fanboys only.
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:45 PM   #715
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How so is it a bargain? $50k for ancient EJ257 engine. Same drive-train as any STI sold over the last 15 years. Same interior as any STI. The CF roof is the big ticket item but you are kidding yourself if you think that warrants the massive price increase over a regular STI. It's still slower than an any M car in a straight line or around a track. Its a car for the most extreme Subaru fanboys only.
I'd rather have the EJ257 which has a highly developed aftermarket as well as proven solutions to shore up it's weaknesses. As oppose to a brand new engine with zero development and unknown problems. That's a can of worms i'm not interested in being the gimp that finds out.

Also, if you know anything about the previous S20* Subaru's. There's alot more to the car than what listed. There's all sorts of special goodies on my S204 EJ motor that a regular STI doesn't have as well a better than the standard STI on everything else. It'll cost you more money to replicate it via the aftermarket.

Finally, If you love the M car so much, buy it. But for my money the M is a total waste of money with an insane depreciation.

Last edited by Fierysun; 03-15-2019 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:19 PM   #716
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How so is it a bargain? $50k for ancient EJ257 engine. Same drive-train as any STI sold over the last 15 years. Same interior as any STI. The CF roof is the big ticket item but you are kidding yourself if you think that warrants the massive price increase over a regular STI. It's still slower than an any M car in a straight line or around a track. Its a car for the most extreme Subaru fanboys only.
I believe the main selling points of the car will actually be the forged EJ257 bottom-end, the cf roof, dry cf rear spoiler, Bilstein suspension, BBS wheels and the peace of mind that comes with knowing you get all that with a factory warranty.

I'll be stunned if this is a $50k car, I'm expecting at least $55k with ADMs putting an S209 into the $60-65k + range easily. I have a feeling the first batch will sell and, much like the RA, the 'real price' of the car will push some away resulting in these taking a lot more time to move than most expect.

When it comes to ///M, you'd really need a CS or GTS model to get on the level of an S model and pricing / power isn't what I'm talking about so much as the thoroughness for which the S209 will have been modified versus say that of a standard M2 and 240i.

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But for my money the M is a total waste of money with an insane depreciation.
///M cars, BMWs in general, depreciate quite poorly.
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:26 PM   #717
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How so is it a bargain? $50k for ancient EJ257 engine. Same drive-train as any STI sold over the last 15 years. Same interior as any STI. The CF roof is the big ticket item but you are kidding yourself if you think that warrants the massive price increase over a regular STI. It's still slower than an any M car in a straight line or around a track. Its a car for the most extreme Subaru fanboys only.
Are you a wizard ? You must be since they really haven't been any track times for the S209 yet...But hey C&D had their hands on one, 5 seconds quicker than the RA, with plenty of room for improvement...Which makes it faster than the last M2 they tested at VIR, so based on what we know so far, you are wrong.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...totype-driven/

And as a BMW fan, I would take the S209 any day over the F80 M3 if I could get my hands on one.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:01 PM   #718
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Are you a wizard ? You must be since they really haven't been any track times for the S209 yet...But hey C&D had their hands on one, 5 seconds quicker than the RA, with plenty of room for improvement...Which makes it faster than the last M2 they tested at VIR, so based on what we know so far, you are wrong.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...totype-driven/

And as a BMW fan, I would take the S209 any day over the F80 M3 if I could get my hands on one.
Since we're bench racing (office chair racing in my case ), I'll just say that the 2019 M2 Competition is out there.
It now uses some of the M3/M4 hardware including the twin-turbo S55 engine and better brakes too (380mm/370mm rotors 6-pot/4-pot rotors).
It's going to be interesting to see how much faster it is around VIR.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:22 PM   #719
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Since we're bench racing (office chair racing in my case ), I'll just say that the 2019 M2 Competition is out there.
It now uses some of the M3/M4 hardware including the twin-turbo S55 engine and better brakes too (380mm/370mm rotors 6-pot/4-pot rotors).
It's going to be interesting to see how much faster it is around VIR.
I would sure hope so since the M2 has a VERY hard time getting away from a V6 Camaro. V8 would slaughter it.


BMW dropped the ball with the latest M cars, let's hope the competition pack can bring some spice back.
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Old 03-16-2019, 12:41 PM   #720
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Lol a $32K V8 Camaro SS1LE slaughters many cars and most likely any Subaru STI. But the S209 is going to be ZL1 territory and Mustang GT350 territory. You can pickup a barely used Mustang GT350 and something like a new gen Civic SI likely for the cost of an S209. Two cars for one. As others mentioned this S209 is just for extreme Subaru fanboys, logically I just don't see it any other way.
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Old 03-16-2019, 04:53 PM   #721
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Lol a $32K V8 Camaro SS1LE slaughters many cars and most likely any Subaru STI. But the S209 is going to be ZL1 territory and Mustang GT350 territory. You can pickup a barely used Mustang GT350 and something like a new gen Civic SI likely for the cost of an S209. Two cars for one. As others mentioned this S209 is just for extreme Subaru fanboys, logically I just don't see it any other way.
You, sir, simply don’t get it?

Ever had a car, gun, knife... woman/man, whatever that meant more to you than their monetary worth? Some things, by their intrinsic beingness, engender that quality... to some one.

We all do it. Some just have the means, or motivation, to indulge their desires more than others.

Nothing more. This isn’t about “cars”. l o l
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Old 03-16-2019, 06:47 PM   #722
Scorpius
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Keep the hate flowing fellas. Spread it around like herpes so when the time comes I'll be able to snatch up an S209 easily.

I'm excited for this car.
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Old 03-16-2019, 07:19 PM   #723
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As others mentioned this S209 is just for extreme Subaru fanboys, logically I just don't see it any other way.


I hope for 60k, they throw in a new toaster with it
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Old 03-16-2019, 08:51 PM   #724
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Originally Posted by Pre View Post


I hope for 60k, they throw in a new toaster with it
Free balloons for the clowns.
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Old 03-17-2019, 03:02 AM   #725
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60k would be asinine... I guess it could potentially hit that with dealer mark-up. Really sad IMO if it does.
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