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08-23-2012, 03:08 PM | #101 |
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I can almost guarantee you the market is small as it is with every other high end product.
People like cheap ****. ebay intercoolers, ebay headers, ebay intake manifolds.... Just take a look at some of the high end group buys....maxwell power....5 month long group buy....10 sets of pistons/rods sold. Titanium exhaust group buys get 4-5 buyers.. Garage Tuning TS Turbo Kit...only $3500....got 0 buyers Moore Performance just started a TS group buy right now...lets see how that goes. Based on past performance of TS offerings it wont sell much. You can tell people all you want about the response differences and show em pretty plots, but it just doesnt seem like something most people want to drop coin on. For all these higher end products a crapload of people will talk them up and get excited about them, but in the end very few will actually pull out their wallet. In the end it sucks all around....if more people would buy them, the prices would come down.
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Last edited by Phatron; 08-23-2012 at 03:18 PM. |
08-23-2012, 03:18 PM | #102 |
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wow.....i thought my little vf39 was pretty amazing lol
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08-23-2012, 03:27 PM | #103 |
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I agree Phatron, we see that all to often.
For me, this kit seems like it will come right at the price for a rotated single scroll w/ EL header using a gtx3076 on a Tial housing. If you want to break it down, the kit minus turbo is $2000 shipped, turbo is $1400, Tial housing is $400. Total being $3800 let's say for even numbers sake. Now this new BW turbo will probably be really close to $1750 itself, factor in the $1300 for piping. Add in the cost for header of choice and you are over my previous build (considering you go with a nicer header like Killer B/Perrin/Invidia/Tomei for example). Question then becomes, is the EFR worth it now? To me then, my "all in one" package is a no brainer seeing as I can get more "bang for my buck". Last edited by draco159; 08-23-2012 at 03:43 PM. |
08-23-2012, 04:05 PM | #104 |
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It's almost like different parts combinations have different appeal to different people who use them for different purposes.
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08-23-2012, 05:40 PM | #105 | |||||||||||||||
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Paul's stock location is one way Full-Race offers to package the EFR's. We can do rotated singlescroll or rotated twinscroll also. Here is
CamTuning's test of a rotated prototype T25 7163 for us (no cat, 3" exhaust, FMIC - tested at 7k feet altitude in alb, NM). Red line is EFR 7163 Blue line is GT3076R .63 a/r rotated Quote:
two fun vids for today: supra vid (listen to the spool between gearshifts) : rt ernies vid: (again, pay attention to the sound of turbo recovery between gear changes, albeit a short vid) +2 this turbo ive decided on for at least one of my projects Quote:
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-i love the 6758, and think its an outstanding turbo, especially for stock location setups. For a 2.5L EJ the 6758 is slightly better suited than the 6258 (that is magical on a 2.0L) and the 58mm turbine definitely spools faster and has quicker response than the 7163 due to reduced inertia. I am not familiar with perrin's TGV issue, but for a 94octane pump gas setup I think both turbos could work well -we did not intend to offer the 1.5scroll with the EFR, but if there is enough interest we will consider it -i agree with your decision to use a 3.5" hfc, i did some testing last spring, ended up making 700whp thru the 3.5" cat: at a lower power level backpressure should be perfectly manageable Quote:
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Last edited by Full-Race Geoff; 08-23-2012 at 05:47 PM. |
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08-23-2012, 05:50 PM | #106 | |
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08-23-2012, 07:17 PM | #107 |
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Loving the feedback Geoff! So you can run this turbo single scroll rotated?? I do believe I'm liking this turbo more and more then. How would you compare this to Pphilthy's turbo, the fmw?
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08-23-2012, 07:32 PM | #108 |
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Have been waiting patiently for these turbos to release and Geoff and I have discussed how this will change the entire outlook on the turbo industry. Excited to say the least..
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08-23-2012, 07:50 PM | #109 |
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is there any updated release date info?
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08-23-2012, 08:37 PM | #110 | |
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Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong Geoff |
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08-23-2012, 09:24 PM | #111 |
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^^^ that is correct per my latest understanding
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08-23-2012, 09:39 PM | #112 | |
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the B1 EFR is more of a linear powerband that starts much earlier, and of course has the ability to be sleeper in the stock "position" edit: cam tuning tuned a sand car with subaru motor and EFR 6258 recently, ill ask him to post the video and dyno chart, it was a crazy ride Last edited by Full-Race Geoff; 08-23-2012 at 09:47 PM. |
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08-23-2012, 10:22 PM | #113 |
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I was kind of thinking in terms of trying to cram an S256 into a stock location Subaru housing for grins, which is why that applied to the idea of doing that to the EFR but... well. Pointless intellectual exercise because if this isn't perfect for what I want I don't know what is. And I figure that the plumbing is probably harder than I'd think, but what's the fun otherwise?
It actually is interesting how taste in this stuff changes (I'm 30 for what it's worth) I've spent the last 10 years building non-turbo rotaries for roadracing, and almost had a peripheral port 13B for a daily driver... which would have been just a terrible thing; noisy, no fuel economy, bucking spitting and belching flames... but it seemed like a good idea at the time! The Subaru's much more practical. Last edited by mekilljoydammit; 08-23-2012 at 10:49 PM. |
08-23-2012, 10:28 PM | #114 |
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^ a bov will get the flames back
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08-23-2012, 10:30 PM | #115 |
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This is what I was waiting for. I'm looking for an alternative to my Blouch 2.5R and EWG - kinda loud for autox. I'm looking to a built motor next spring and was looking at turbo alternatives and something with an EWG and BOV built in is perfect.
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08-23-2012, 10:32 PM | #116 | |
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08-23-2012, 10:50 PM | #117 |
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08-24-2012, 12:48 AM | #118 |
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I am leaning to switching to something like this. My gtx35 and 35mph speed limits in my town make it a suckfest for daily driving. I miss power below 5k
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08-24-2012, 11:36 AM | #119 |
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08-24-2012, 01:29 PM | #120 |
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08-24-2012, 01:33 PM | #121 |
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I seen a YouTube video with an efr turbo on a sand car and that turbo was super loud but that car was moving.
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08-24-2012, 01:42 PM | #122 |
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I think he posted it in the Bw thread. I don't think there is a dyno plot I think he sand tuned it
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08-24-2012, 01:47 PM | #123 |
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Paul,
Can u throw up some comparo plots vs vf, 20g, dom2.5 all on e85? Thanks |
08-24-2012, 02:49 PM | #124 |
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Just playing devil's advocate but isn't it possible that the greatest variable for the EFR performance is the wheel combination more than the other features and that when compared to similarly sized Garret combinations the performance is very close?
It seems like the GTX 3576 performs similarly on the dyno (I understand that this may not reveal response blah blah) to the 7670. And the closest competitor to the efr 7163 would be a GTX3071 .63 with the 7163 having a slight edge on spool due to the smaller flange? Killerb recently tested the .63 GTX3071 and the curve looks similar except peak power is down but this was on a mustang dyno. Still the EFR has interesting features that make it unique. I do think that the EFR have an edge in twinscroll variation over the Garretts no matter the wheel combination as the housing are actually designed for these turbos rather than Garretts that seem to be an afterthought on old housings that have been machined to fit existing turbine wheels. |
08-24-2012, 05:10 PM | #125 |
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Its more than just wheel combination they're built lighter with different aerodynamics the 7163 has some funky aluminum housing on the bearings and etc. And to top that all the B1's are 2.5 inlets so it's no contest. Compared to the GTX3071. Also look where Killer B mounted their unit its not even practical. That has a lot to do with that GTX performance. Every EFR video I've seen the turbos are spooling faster than any Garrett period.
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