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Old 11-05-2019, 07:20 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by n2oiroc View Post
because in the real world they suck? my dealer didnt have a dsg r for me to test drive so i took out a dsg autobahn gti with pp. it was a warm and sunny day. any time i pushed it at all it was nothing but tire spin and traction control. add in any cold temps, rain, or snow and its utterly crippled. no thanks.
Sticky tires and lighter wheels completely changes the GTI with PP. VW likes to use HEAVY factory wheels, and the stock tires are garbage.

The N actually comes with good tires.
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My bias against FWD is rooted entirely in non-performance metrics related feelz. I don't care how good you make it, or how well you can trick it into acting like a RWD car. A car that can't power slide and hold the power slide is not a hoon car, and therefor not eligible in my books. At least the twins (in their infinite lack of power) are still hoon-able.
Having had "hoon" cars, a good FWD setup has a different kind of "fun" to it. RWD fun cars are on-power oversteer cars with lots of counter steer. A fun modern FWD car is all about chucking it into a corner and lifting the throttle to rotate it, then get back on the throttle to pull it out of the corner. I find it MORE fun on a regular back road since you aren't putting your car or self at risk with a powerslide, and with tight turns the new breed of FWD cars like the N and FiST are some of the quickest cars you will ever see rotate around a hairpin.
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Old 11-05-2019, 07:45 PM   #27
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For what it isn't worth the platform performed VERY well in IMSA this year.
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Old 11-05-2019, 09:50 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by n2oiroc View Post
because in the real world they suck? my dealer didnt have a dsg r for me to test drive so i took out a dsg autobahn gti with pp. it was a warm and sunny day. any time i pushed it at all it was nothing but tire spin and traction control. add in any cold temps, rain, or snow and its utterly crippled. no thanks.
And my M2 does nothing but spin them from 1-2. Guess my M2 sucks in the real world. Only practical real world car sounds like it must be AWD or bust.
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Old 11-05-2019, 10:45 PM   #29
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And my M2 does nothing but spin them from 1-2. Guess my M2 sucks in the real world. Only practical real world car sounds like it must be AWD or bust.
WOT all the time bro, if the car can't handle the driver's inability to modulate the pedal, then the car is a pos.
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Old 11-05-2019, 10:52 PM   #30
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Drive wheels should always steer car...
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Old 11-06-2019, 10:33 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n2oiroc View Post
because in the real world they suck? my dealer didnt have a dsg r for me to test drive so i took out a dsg autobahn gti with pp. it was a warm and sunny day. any time i pushed it at all it was nothing but tire spin and traction control. add in any cold temps, rain, or snow and its utterly crippled. no thanks.
Please define "real world".

And what you're describing applies to any high powered RWD car, too. I've had nothing but spinning tires and constant traction control activation with those if I'm heavy on the throttle. They must suck.
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Old 11-06-2019, 10:47 AM   #32
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Drive wheels should always steer car...
Sometimes, this is not a bad thing.

I've driven many cars in anger over the years, AWD, RWD, FWD, you name it... owned variations of all. The most fun FWD I had was a '93 Si for a bit that was a freaking hoot on the course. I wouldn't dismiss the N being a performer *because* it's FWD.

However, I agree with your sentiment if it's not SET UP properly to be a performer, which is almost every other FWD car out there, save what Kosta mentioned (FiST, FoST, Type-R, Si, GTI) and now the N. Honestly, Honda has been ahead of the game for decades (Si/Integras). All other FWDs are compromises. Notice that MINI isn't in there either. They have struggled to make their FWD not torque steer, whereas Ford, Honda, VW have figured it out. Don't get me wrong, a properly suspensioned/altered MINI to improve its handline is a hoot to hoon, but it's still not with the other handful above solely for their incapability to control torque steer.

Now, with Biermann at Hyundai, who was at BMW with BMW in their heyday, maxing out at VP before Bangle ruined everything, especially dynamics), and having the helm vs being a yes-man, some fun things can happen at Hyundai.

Take what made fun cars back then fun, add some modern tech into it, and make them funner. People want the BMW of old, not many say nice things of the BMW of today when it comes to performance and handling. They've lost their way.

Give it a year or two, and I think Hyundai will have something close to an M-Beater in their stable - because it takes a few years to make these changes and he's been there for about 4-5 right now.

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Old 11-06-2019, 10:55 AM   #33
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Add on top of that the 10 year / 100k mile powertrain warranty and the official word that tracking and performance driving are not grounds for warranty work denial, and it really shapes up to be an excellent choice for people in the market for something like this.

To the people complaining a Hyundai won: read the article. It states multiple times that outright lap times are not the end-all-be-all metric. This is a new car from a company that doesn't typically do performance cars, and they nailed it. We should all be happy and excited.
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Old 11-06-2019, 11:48 AM   #34
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-soap box

My Issue with this is not that Hyundai received appreciation for a car that was built for the experience, I think they deserve many CUDOs for that.

But it should not win "Performance Car of the year"

if they are going mostly weigh the subjective attributes to determine the winner it should be "recreational car" or "Funnest (SP) car". Performance can be quantified by numbers, experience and enjoyment are harder to capture.

I think it can rightfully be called the best fun for your dollar car, and possibly the best performance bang for the buck. It's not a better performer than the more expensive cars in the group, and even at $30K is it the best performer in it's price range?

I know this is my opinion but I think if they are going to rank these things it should be by price range like the Lightning lap does.

They can have the "Sports/Sporty car of the year" where this should most likely win or at least be a finalist.

/soap box
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Old 11-06-2019, 02:05 PM   #35
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I agree, a PCOTY for various price ranges would be much better.
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Old 11-06-2019, 02:25 PM   #36
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Thirded. It should win a special prize for left field track day p c o t y.

I see why they did it. Low expectations then walked away super impressed. If you've driven most of these cars at length over the years around the track or as long termers, their magic curtain fades. The Vette should have been first IMO. For one, if it clocked that time around Thunderhill in pre release mode, and didn't kill anyone in the process first prize. The corkscrew is not kind to high power Vettes.
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Old 11-06-2019, 02:26 PM   #37
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I'm willing to bet that the C8s tranny programming they blasted is already updated.

--kC
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Old 11-06-2019, 02:33 PM   #38
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Fourth(ed)?

PCOTY should be weighed on street performance and quality as well as all out performance metrics (60ft, 0-60, 1/4, lap time). The Hyundai should win “performance value car of the year.”
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Old 11-06-2019, 03:29 PM   #39
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I get this. The folks thinking the VETTE, the first mid engine VETTE ever should have won. But this is performance car of the year, not CAR of the year. The vette should win CofY. It is the most different most improved. But performance car of the year is totally different. I get the metric and I think the new Hyundia is more significant than the Vette. The vette will win when the ZR1 comes.
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Old 11-06-2019, 03:37 PM   #40
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LOL. FWD isn't desirable on a performance car. I don't even see how it wins on fun or driving dynamics? Let alone real-world ownership. My CTR, on a dry day, loses traction up through 3rd gear. In the rain it is a nightmare, you have to be feather-light on the gas in order not to just sit and spin.

I do like the exhaust on the Veloster N and the size is perfect.
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Old 11-06-2019, 03:43 PM   #41
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Old 11-06-2019, 04:03 PM   #42
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Hyundai pulled the highest G entering turn 3. That's saying a lot for a front driver. The CTR might have too much power for daily driving. Around a dry track where it's more usable the CTR is said to be a great car. The Hyundai just might be better balanced. Haven't driven either around a track so I can only take these guys' word for it.
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Old 11-06-2019, 04:19 PM   #43
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LOL. FWD isn't desirable on a performance car. I don't even see how it wins on fun or driving dynamics? Let alone real-world ownership. My CTR, on a dry day, loses traction up through 3rd gear. In the rain it is a nightmare, you have to be feather-light on the gas in order not to just sit and spin.

I do like the exhaust on the Veloster N and the size is perfect.
The exact same thing can be said of a RWD car. I can easily spin all the way through third if I go WOT in the dry with my 370-hp Charger; let alone if it's raining (I have literally been standing at green lights, at WOT, in the rain, going nowhere fast ).
So, yeah, the throttle NEEDS TO BE feathered and used much more like a dial and much less like a toggle switch...
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Old 11-06-2019, 05:42 PM   #44
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I have to admit the Veloster N has grown on me. While I’m a little surprised these writers deemed it the best of this competition I’m not surprised that it was well received. It’s a great little car.
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Old 11-06-2019, 06:08 PM   #45
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Paid advertisement. That's the first thing that came to my mind.

"this thing is nice, it's great, the seats are great, not much torque steer, it pushes in the turns but it's really great. impressed. woah. it has selectable modes based on what you want. really great. this is a really, really great car. Only driven this track for a total of 5 laps, but I'm fully qualified to be the sole reviewer. btw, I daily drive a 1993 golf, so that's what I'm comparing to..."


It looks like a good car for what it is. Does it offer a better VALUE than the other cars they tested? Sure. But is this a VALUE award? No.

The last line of their article is interesting... "We got your letter, Hyundai. We heart you, too." How much cash was in that envelope?
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Old 11-06-2019, 06:46 PM   #46
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It looks like a good car for what it is. Does it offer a better VALUE than the other cars they tested? Sure. But is this a VALUE award? No.
Everyone keeps saying the N shouldn't have won because this isn't a "Value" award or "award based on $$$ per fun", yet they keep saying the C8 should have won...

Hypocrisy I say, hypocrisy.
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Old 11-06-2019, 06:49 PM   #47
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Everyone keeps saying the N shouldn't have won because this isn't a "Value" award or "award based on $$$ per fun", yet they keep saying the C8 should have won...

Hypocrisy I say, hypocrisy.
Why? Just because it went read engine? I havenít looked up specs but how much improved is it over prior gen given exact same packages? If itís same or marginally better, itís just a better looking vette with fancier engine layout. If itís leaps and bounds better than the prior gen with exact same package, then sure. It would be the best value IMO.
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Old 11-06-2019, 06:57 PM   #48
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RE: "fwd vs rwd slipping"

Front wheel drive slipping isn't fun, nor performant. RWD, slipping a little is actually ideal for rotation. Slipping RWD is also fun as hell.

To better make this point (not that this is possible): Take two cars that are exactly the same, except one is FWD and one is RWD. I bet 10/10 times, someone who is well practiced with both will turn out faster lap times in the RWD.
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Old 11-06-2019, 07:08 PM   #49
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Why? Just because it went read engine? I havenít looked up specs but how much improved is it over prior gen given exact same packages? If itís same or marginally better, itís just a better looking vette with fancier engine layout. If itís leaps and bounds better than the prior gen with exact same package, then sure. It would be the best value IMO.
Because the McLaren was clearly the "best" car of the group. Does everything the C8 can but way better.

So the C8 should win because its cheaper and better value?

If thats your logic, then yes the N deserves to win by a landslide.
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Old 11-06-2019, 07:19 PM   #50
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Or set a price point for performance cars and run them all head to head around a track. All are winners. Biggest trophy for the one with special sauce. Hyundai I'm guessing is that car.
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