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Old 07-24-2019, 03:44 PM   #276
legacy_etu
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If they had cooling issues with the last Z06...

3rd year then shop one?
Z06 is SC'ed. I'd hope for no issues with the base/normally aspirated cars.
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Old 07-24-2019, 03:53 PM   #277
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Eh, I doubt it. People thought the same thing about manual M2ís and how they would hold resale better, be worth more, etc. Turns out people prefer DCT trans despite saying ďIím a manual purist.Ē
Maybe the M2 just needs to age more. Look at the E46 market, manuals sell for thousands more than the SMG versions.
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Old 07-24-2019, 06:31 PM   #278
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Maybe the M2 just needs to age more. Look at the E46 market, manuals sell for thousands more than the SMG versions.
That's because no one wants to pay $7k to replace a busted SMG in 15 year old car.
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Old 07-25-2019, 12:48 AM   #279
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It seemed like a massive publicity stunt to offer the car at 60k, when damn well everyone knows ADM from dealers, and options are going to be closer to 80k.

I get the performance value at 60k, but realistically no one is going to buy this for 60k. That is bare bones stock. I mean little options like red calipers, 1200$. Try to option one out and see where you're at lol. These are going to go for 75-80k all day. In 3-4 years you'll find them lightly used for 45k.
Totally agree with this. You remember the last years of the Chevy SS? They got all this publicity for offering a manual, but they wouldn't send any to any dealers. Either that or the dealers wouldn't order them. Point is that while the manual was theoretically available on that car, you couldn't actually get one.
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Old 07-25-2019, 08:44 AM   #280
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Driving a manual is easy. I think many people buy these cars and realize that they never get to enjoy them because of traffic, bad roads, needing to take the other car for family/cargo needs, etc. It also sucks to walk by your toy in the garage every day, see the money it sucks up, and always having a reason to not drive it.
Why is there such a tendency for people to cloth themselves in an identity these days? ď I am a manual guy ! ď. ď Screw those manual guys, I am an automatic guy! ď. Ridiculous. Buy what appeals to you and enjoy.

I have not owned an automatic for personal use in 30 years. My wife prefers them only because she has a knee problem and doesnít want to shift.

It is so second nature for me to drive a manual, I never think about it. That includes traffic etc. I can drive her car or any other automatic no problem and donít think about it then either (other than herís are woefully underpowered). Would I be open to a good dual clutch semiautomatic? Sure maybe. Different experience. I know they can be faster now so why not? That said (based on my experience in the Evo world), if you mod them they are more difficult, the cost more hp trough transmission losses, usually can take less power on top of that and more expensive if they break. Those would be my major hesitations. That and I love the connected feel of a very light high powered car with a stick shift. If people prefer an automatic, then more power to them.
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Old 07-25-2019, 10:24 AM   #281
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Totally agree with this. You remember the last years of the Chevy SS? They got all this publicity for offering a manual, but they wouldn't send any to any dealers. Either that or the dealers wouldn't order them. Point is that while the manual was theoretically available on that car, you couldn't actually get one.
It took me a year to find mine with a manual and it was at a dealer that was begging to get rid of it saying many couldn't even test drive it because they didn't know how to drive a manual. They're so desperate to get rid of it, they gave me what I wanted for my Evo sight unseen and with a dying AWC pump.
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Old 07-25-2019, 10:38 AM   #282
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Maybe the M2 just needs to age more. Look at the E46 market, manuals sell for thousands more than the SMG versions.
Thatís because the SMG transmission was garbage. It could literally crap out at 8k miles or 60k miles. It shifted insanely rough on the streets and was just problematic. Comparing the M2 DCT to the E46 SMG is not an equal comparison at all.
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Old 07-25-2019, 01:21 PM   #283
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Thatís because the SMG transmission was garbage. It could literally crap out at 8k miles or 60k miles. It shifted insanely rough on the streets and was just problematic. Comparing the M2 DCT to the E46 SMG is not an equal comparison at all.
Agreed. I got to drive an '18 M3 CS on Saturday. That DCT is ****ing amazing. I think it's better than the PDK I experienced in a Boxster S a few years ago. It is somehow smart enough to match the shift quality to the driver input. Light throttle and driving like grandma and it's tame and soft. Tip in a bit more and build some g-forces and it starts to shift harder and faster. This is without the driver turning a knob and asking for it. It just reacts to how you're driving. The SMGII had settings for how much you wanted to be abused, and none of them were as polite as the new DCT can be.
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Old 07-25-2019, 03:14 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by FaastLegacy View Post
Bingo.

I daily a GTI right now. I can afford something faster and more fun, but what's the point when there's nowhere to legally use it and it sits in rush hour traffic for 95% of its life?
You can make a good argument that performance cars makes so much power today that they have taken a lot of the fun away from daily driving a manual transmission. I used to just love taking my del sol VTEC all the way over 8000 RPM daily in traffic as it was a necessity to rev engines like the B16A hard just to keep up to traffic. If I drove my M2 like that I would probably have lost my license months ago and I can't imagine what it would be like with a 500 hp car as you would have to granny shift in most traffic situations which I don't consider fun.
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Old 07-25-2019, 04:19 PM   #285
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You can make a good argument that performance cars makes so much power today that they have taken a lot of the fun away from daily driving a manual transmission. I used to just love taking my del sol VTEC all the way over 8000 RPM daily in traffic as it was a necessity to rev engines like the B16A hard just to keep up to traffic. If I drove my M2 like that I would probably have lost my license months ago and I can't imagine what it would be like with a 500 hp car as you would have to granny shift in most traffic situations which I don't consider fun.
I think youíre also seeing a shift from those who bought daily driver manual fun cars to DCT daily driver fun cars simply because itís less of a hassle. Personally, Iíd hate having to go back to a car for daily driving where I have to shift. I want my DD to be as easy to drive as can be without it being a pile of crap.

I think that if you gave the ďmanual onlyĒ crowd a proper DCT trans car and have them drive it for 2-3 weeks then give them the manual version that most would switch over. Manual transmission cars of today simply canít compete with the performance of todayís DCT. The M2 will rev match better than any driver can, shifts faster than any driver can, etc. I would gladly take a manual car that has 300hp or less (sti, E46 M3, etc) as they are not as quick and gearing is much different. A car designed for all out performance, itís DCT / PDK etc or bust.
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Old 07-25-2019, 05:02 PM   #286
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Manual or DCT is not about what is faster, never has been. The DCT has always been quicker, it is about engagement and feeling like you making the car move and dance with your input.... rather than just be along for the ride. None of us are racing to put food on the table and tenths of a second are meaningless. I am ambivalent to driving my ridgeline even though it would probably walk away from the little Z car. But I LOVE To drive the Z. I feel involved and part of the experience. THat is just my 2 cents
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Old 07-25-2019, 05:30 PM   #287
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Manual or DCT is not about what is faster, never has been. The DCT has always been quicker, it is about engagement and feeling like you making the car move and dance with your input.... rather than just be along for the ride. None of us are racing to put food on the table and tenths of a second are meaningless. I am ambivalent to driving my ridgeline even though it would probably walk away from the little Z car. But I LOVE To drive the Z. I feel involved and part of the experience. THat is just my 2 cents
Iíd be willing to bet the dct is damn near as close to manual in new age cars in terms of ďengagementĒ and enjoyment for the ďpurist.Ē Why do I say this? Because I was on the manual or no care train until week 2 or 3 of my M2 and Iíd never go back in a new age car. I would argue Iím much more of an engaged driver than when i drove manual. On spirited drives Iím able to take turns much faster, exit faster which also means Iím damn focused on not loosing control and have found myself a few times entering a turn much faster than I should have and being able to use the dct to control the car instead of slamming brakes and hoping for the best.

Honest opinion, if you havenít had a a week or so behind the wheel of a proper dct / pdk, your room for argument is pretty low. Thatís like saying youíll always like come over Pepsi but refuse to try Pepsi.

Just sayin.
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Old 07-25-2019, 05:44 PM   #288
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I’d be willing to bet the dct is damn near as close to manual in new age cars in terms of “engagement” and enjoyment for the “purist.” Why do I say this? Because I was on the manual or no care train until week 2 or 3 of my M2 and I’d never go back in a new age car. I would argue I’m much more of an engaged driver than when i drove manual. On spirited drives I’m able to take turns much faster, exit faster which also means I’m damn focused on not loosing control and have found myself a few times entering a turn much faster than I should have and being able to use the dct to control the car instead of slamming brakes and hoping for the best.

Honest opinion, if you haven’t had a a week or so behind the wheel of a proper dct / pdk, your room for argument is pretty low. That’s like saying you’ll always like come over Pepsi but refuse to try Pepsi.

Just sayin.
For me, it's about the engagement on every drive, including the boring mundane ones. I am more focused on the task at hand when I'm in control of more things. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17085632) "Subjectively, participants report being more attentive while driving in manual transmission mode. Objectively, participants drive safer in the manual transmission mode." This will obviously vary person-by-person. But for me, I have never ever felt more in touch with what's happening on the road and my surroundings then when I was riding a motorcycle.
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Old 07-25-2019, 06:16 PM   #289
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Iíd be willing to bet the dct is damn near as close to manual in new age cars in terms of ďengagementĒ and enjoyment for the ďpurist.Ē Why do I say this? Because I was on the manual or no care train until week 2 or 3 of my M2 and Iíd never go back in a new age car. I would argue Iím much more of an engaged driver than when i drove manual. On spirited drives Iím able to take turns much faster, exit faster which also means Iím damn focused on not loosing control and have found myself a few times entering a turn much faster than I should have and being able to use the dct to control the car instead of slamming brakes and hoping for the best.

Honest opinion, if you havenít had a a week or so behind the wheel of a proper dct / pdk, your room for argument is pretty low. Thatís like saying youíll always like come over Pepsi but refuse to try Pepsi.

Just sayin.
I think it's also motor and platform dependent - I wouldn't want a manual in a McLaren or a 488, but the Carrera GT needs a manual to really appreciate the motor. I always wanted a 360 Challenge Stradale, and almost bought one years back, but the F1 tranny really held the car back in overall experience. Drove the F12 and while amazing, it too would benefit from a manual, and I would trade the Vanquish for one if it had it. In general, if n/a, I like manual, if turbo, likely dual clutch in a new(ish) car, depending on the power delivery and power:weight. I would also like to have a street legal car in the stable with an Emco sequential box

For me, it's about constantly developing and honing the driving skillset while maximizing fun. The more things to do and the more poorly and/or uniquely the car behaves, the more challenge there is for the driver - roughly increasing fun until danger>comfyrisk. The Viper ACR and my retarded Cobra are like twin brothers with opposite personalities - both constantly daring you to add more risk, but in different ways. Downforce in the ACR vs. the short wheelbase and unlimited power in the Cobra were both very difficult to get used to/better at using/controlling. I haven't gotten close to the limit in the CGT, but it's as alive as the previous 2, while being infinitely more refined in every way.

Need to wait until the Z06 is out to know, but my gut says the regular Z51 is the car to get. Big displacement and a cammy power delivery instead of spool (assuming turbo on the Z). And if you must have more power, add a whipple. More suspension and tire on the Z is going to add weight and raise the limits so high that the fun might actually be sacrificed.
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Old 07-25-2019, 10:05 PM   #290
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Iíd be willing to bet the dct is damn near as close to manual in new age cars in terms of ďengagementĒ and enjoyment for the ďpurist.Ē Why do I say this? Because I was on the manual or no care train until week 2 or 3 of my M2 and Iíd never go back in a new age car. I would argue Iím much more of an engaged driver than when i drove manual. On spirited drives Iím able to take turns much faster, exit faster which also means Iím damn focused on not loosing control and have found myself a few times entering a turn much faster than I should have and being able to use the dct to control the car instead of slamming brakes and hoping for the best.

Honest opinion, if you havenít had a a week or so behind the wheel of a proper dct / pdk, your room for argument is pretty low. Thatís like saying youíll always like come over Pepsi but refuse to try Pepsi.

Just sayin.
I have to agree with this. Iím absolutely loving the PDK in my GT3RS.

Another benefit, a lot of the tracks near me are at least 2-3 hours away and itís nice to be able to just shift into D, take it easy, and rest my brain on the drive home after a long day on the track.

Personally, Iím fine with the C8 having only a DCT, so long as itís a good one and not clunky. There are plenty of manual cars available, and I own several, so I can still get my manual fix when I want to.
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Old 07-28-2019, 02:39 PM   #291
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Not a fan because of the looks. But have to pile on and agree GM did a good job - the price/performance ratio just threw a wrench in a bunch of people's plans. And that includes the higher-performance models of the Corvette going into $100k+ pricing territory in the future. Other manufacturers will have to adjust their marketing efforts on things like "brand", exclusivity, and (build) quality in the face of the C8.
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Old 07-28-2019, 07:03 PM   #292
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Iím anticipating the coming reviews of this car and will wager thereís a good chance that Motor Trend will award the C8 Best Driverís Car and possibly Car of the Year (next year). I mean, they tend to like a lot of Chevy stuff (Volt).
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Old 07-28-2019, 07:51 PM   #293
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I’m anticipating the coming reviews of this car and will wager there’s a good chance that Motor Trend will award the C8 Best Driver’s Car and possibly Car of the Year (next year). I mean, they tend to like a lot of Chevy stuff (Volt).
Possible ... but last year MT was so FCA biased, even the no-longer-working-at-FCA Sergio won. Good thing for GM they have no new car to go up against the C8 :lol

Last edited by bemani; 07-28-2019 at 07:57 PM.
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Old 07-29-2019, 04:01 AM   #294
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Old 07-29-2019, 11:53 AM   #295
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there's a thread on r/cars about this car being nearly sold out for 2020 already. GM was preparing for double capacity and it looks like they'll sell all they can make for a few years.
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Old 07-30-2019, 09:27 AM   #296
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I saw the C8 over the weekend. It looks pretty good in person, although those tail lights are still kind of boring. And the old man crowd seemed to be into it too.
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Old 07-30-2019, 10:33 AM   #297
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I saw the C8 over the weekend. It looks pretty good in person, although those tail lights are still kind of boring. And the old man crowd seemed to be into it too.
Old man crowd is a big part of the Vette market. I'd guess the avg age of a Vette owner is much higher than that of other sports cars and/or cars in this price range.

I wonder how many of the C8s are being bought up by the dealer's?
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Old 07-30-2019, 11:03 AM   #298
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Old man crowd is a big part of the Vette market. I'd guess the avg age of a Vette owner is much higher than that of other sports cars and/or cars in this price range.

I wonder how many of the C8s are being bought up by the dealer's?
Out of curiosity, what is the "old man crowd" age bracket?

I'm willing to bet my local Chevy dealer will have a fleet and/or fever of them.
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Old 07-30-2019, 01:58 PM   #299
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Old man I'd say is over 60. People who still remember muscle cars being sold new and wanted one but couldn't afford or too young.
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Old 07-30-2019, 09:02 PM   #300
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Out of curiosity, what is the "old man crowd" age bracket?

I'm willing to bet my local Chevy dealer will have a fleet and/or fever of them.
I'd say 50-70. In my line of work there's lots of retired Military and they love their Vettes, in fact the VFW Chapter here has both a bike club and a Vette club. That being said, GM was very vocal about the C7 when it came out about capturing a younger and broader market demographic and I think they did very well at that.
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