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Old 06-07-2021, 03:23 PM   #51
chanomatik
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Yeah I actually kinda like it more with the duckbill on white. I'm not a huge fan of duckbills, but sometimes it works.
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Old 06-07-2021, 03:37 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by chanomatik View Post
Yeah I actually kinda like it more with the duckbill on white. I'm not a huge fan of duckbills, but sometimes it works.
My problem with the duckbill is that the top edge is not a consistent height from the ground. In fact, the 86's duckbill is much much lower precisely where it should be higher if you care about visibility and aerodynamics:



The center section is lower to improve outward visibility at the expense of effectiveness. This is a less compromised design:



The 86's setup seems to be the worst of both worlds. Of course, it's main purpose is to make the 86 look more like the Supra (which itself suffers from a similar design).
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Old 06-07-2021, 03:45 PM   #53
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Yeah, looked back at the red 86 and the Supra duckbill pics and shuddered a little.
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Old 06-07-2021, 04:00 PM   #54
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I don't mind the spoiler at all. Its certainly better than the previous factory spoilers.
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Old 06-07-2021, 04:35 PM   #55
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I now regret bringing it up. lol
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Old 06-07-2021, 08:55 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
the new FA engine in the twins now officially makes more power than the original USDM WRX, which was damn quick in 2002, and it doesn't even have a turbocharger...

Folks in this sub-forum need some damn perspective sometimes. #SMFH
It's still down 33 ft-lb of torque.
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Old 06-07-2021, 09:08 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by White out View Post
It's still down 33 ft-lb of torque.
True, but what about the drivetrain loss comparison? The FA20 BRZ made similar performance numbers to the 2002 WRX, where the WRX was quicker off the line, but the BRZ would catch up to it towards the top end. The new BRZ should be at least equal to the 2002 WRX off the line, right? I'll have to check on the numbers again. I've posted them elsewhere before.
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Old 06-07-2021, 10:38 PM   #58
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A GSR Integra felt quick to me back then and super fun to drive. The WRX was a damn rocket.

I love my Focus RS but it's just too fast for having fun on the street, and it's not a fast car by today's metrics. I imagine the Supra is similar. 86 might be in a sweet spot power/handling wise.
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Old 06-07-2021, 11:22 PM   #59
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Mustang GT: "Fast as a porsche!"
Corvette C8: "Hangs with supercars!"
BRZ: "As fast as an early 2000's poor man's performance sedan that is, by all modern standards, slow as fork"

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Old 06-07-2021, 11:33 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by BeepBoop View Post
Mustang GT: "Fast as a porsche!"
Corvette C8: "Hangs with supercars!"
BRZ: "As fast as an early 2000's poor man's performance sedan that is, by all modern standards, slow as fork"

Thereís a lot to like about the new BRZ. If itís as fast as a modern Miata, with similarly good power delivery, people wonít complain that itís too slow.
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Old 06-08-2021, 02:22 AM   #61
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You don't think people complain the miata is too slow?

News flash: the miata is slow

There's plenty to like about the twins, but power ain't one of them and apparently never will be (OEM anyways...).

Things that they do right:
Correct light(ish) weight
Correct drive wheels
Correct # of gears
Correct # of doors
Correct # of seats that can actually fit people
Correct(ish) suspension setup


Things it lacks:
Actual performance

Tires suck, brakes suck, engine sucks, clutch sucks. Brakes and tires get semi-fixed with any one of the million "special edition" packages, and tires really aren't much of a gripe since they're going to get bald anyways.

Last edited by BeepBoop; 06-08-2021 at 02:34 AM.
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Old 06-08-2021, 06:11 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
Thereís a lot to like about the new BRZ. If itís as fast as a modern Miata, with similarly good power delivery, people wonít complain that itís too slow.
Go to any Track day, Autocross, etc. and you will see at least one of the holy trinity... Miatas, Corvettes and the Twins (BRZ/FRS/86). And there is a perfectly good reason why.
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Old 06-08-2021, 07:46 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by BeepBoop View Post
You don't think people complain the miata is too slow?

News flash: the miata is slow

There's plenty to like about the twins, but power ain't one of them and apparently never will be (OEM anyways...).

Things that they do right:
Correct light(ish) weight
Correct drive wheels
Correct # of gears
Correct # of doors
Correct # of seats that can actually fit people
Correct(ish) suspension setup


Things it lacks:
Actual performance

Tires suck, brakes suck, engine sucks, clutch sucks. Brakes and tires get semi-fixed with any one of the million "special edition" packages, and tires really aren't much of a gripe since they're going to get bald anyways.
Have you driven an ND2 Miata? Theyíre not slow.
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Old 06-08-2021, 09:42 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBoop View Post
You don't think people complain the miata is too slow?

News flash: the miata is slow

There's plenty to like about the twins, but power ain't one of them and apparently never will be (OEM anyways...).

Things that they do right:
Correct light(ish) weight
Correct drive wheels
Correct # of gears
Correct # of doors
Correct # of seats that can actually fit people
Correct(ish) suspension setup


Things it lacks:
Actual performance

Tires suck, brakes suck, engine sucks, clutch sucks. Brakes and tires get semi-fixed with any one of the million "special edition" packages, and tires really aren't much of a gripe since they're going to get bald anyways.
People used to complain BMWs were slow. Now they're fast, bloated and boring. Nice job whiners.
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Old 06-08-2021, 10:09 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post
People used to complain BMWs were slow. Now they're fast, bloated and boring. Nice job whiners.
Just about everything is bloated and boring now; the Evora is 3,200lbs, remember when Lotus made light cars? It wasn't that long ago.
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Old 06-08-2021, 10:48 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
When it lacks torque all across the rev range and has a huge dip right where it should be peaking.

"It's faster than a 1986 Toyota ****box" isn't exactly a great endorsement.
how about it's faster than a BMW M5?

US spec from 1984
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Old 06-08-2021, 11:07 AM   #67
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"Slow" is sssoooo relative. I'm surprised people still debate about it. Or maybe I shouldn't be surprised and give people way too much credit.
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Old 06-08-2021, 11:34 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post
People used to complain BMWs were slow. Now they're fast, bloated and boring. Nice job whiners.
They also used to have fast, not bloated, and not boring cars. People who complained about old BMWs being slow (rightfully) complained about the poverty spec bottom barrel ones like the 325i. The M3 was fine in the 90s and early 2000s. Heard basically no one ever complain about them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
Have you driven an ND2 Miata? They're not slow.
I've ridden in one and I know the base performance specs. Yes, they are slow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
Go to any Track day, Autocross, etc. and you will see at least one of the holy trinity... Miatas, Corvettes and the Twins (BRZ/FRS/86). And there is a perfectly good reason why.
Yes: they're cheap, cheap to operate, and they tick the boxes for all the correct baseline characteristics you want. Go to any track day and pay attn to which cars are actually turning in good times, and the vette is the only one on that list doing well. Otherwise, it's v8s, evos, s2000s, and stupid expensive cars (of the p-variety usually) actually performing well (at least if you're talking actual tracks and not SCCA parking lots).

Quote:
Originally Posted by chanomatik View Post
"Slow" is sssoooo relative. I'm surprised people still debate about it. Or maybe I shouldn't be surprised and give people way too much credit.
It's not so relative if you crop your selection down to "actual performance-oriented cars."

Last edited by BeepBoop; 06-08-2021 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 06-08-2021, 12:08 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
Just about everything is bloated and boring now; the Evora is 3,200lbs, remember when Lotus made light cars? It wasn't that long ago.
My Civic Si is light. I was reminded of that yesterday when I was filling up the tank and I bumped the gas cover with my hip. It gouged the paint and bent the cover so it doesn't fit right anymore.

Cheap lightness has a downside.
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Old 06-08-2021, 12:11 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by BeepBoop View Post
They also used to have fast, not bloated, and not boring cars. People who complained about old BMWs being slow (rightfully) complained about the poverty spec bottom barrel ones like the 325i.
yeah, I was mostly joking. My '95 325i was awesome, did 10 track days in that car. Loved that motor (189 hp). But I think you're referring more to E46 325s etc, I agree, those were rather sedate.

I think turbos ruined the enthusiast car market - all of sudden we had easy cheap power, but we gave up nice sounding engines and I think cars had to get really heavy to deal with the ever escalating power.
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Old 06-08-2021, 12:14 PM   #71
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It's not so relative if you crop your selection down to "actual performance-oriented cars."
Unfortunately for you "performance" is also subjective.
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Old 06-08-2021, 12:34 PM   #72
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I really like these cars but I've been pretty spoiled of late driving BMW inline 6 turbo engines so going from over 500 hp to this car may be too much of a divide as I can't even imagine getting back into an STI which I consider a slow car today. However I'm not really the intended market for this car as I think it's perfect entry level car for the younger person or average wage earner to get into a RWD sports car. Besides if you take launch out of the equation this car is probably neck and neck with the WRX and STI 5-60 mph anyway so not really much slower on the street.
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Old 06-08-2021, 01:21 PM   #73
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I love my Focus RS but it's just too fast for having fun on the street, and it's not a fast car by today's metrics..

Was too slow for me. But I only really drove it in the twisties. Corners were magnificent but straight line, certainly wasn't too fast for me. It was slow and boring there.
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Old 06-08-2021, 01:31 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
I really like these cars but I've been pretty spoiled of late driving BMW inline 6 turbo engines so going from over 500 hp to this car may be too much of a divide as I can't even imagine getting back into an STI which I consider a slow car today. However I'm not really the intended market for this car as I think it's perfect entry level car for the younger person or average wage earner to get into a RWD sports car. Besides if you take launch out of the equation this car is probably neck and neck with the WRX and STI 5-60 mph anyway so not really much slower on the street.
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Was too slow for me. But I only really drove it in the twisties. Corners were magnificent but straight line, certainly wasn't too fast for me. It was slow and boring there.
So pretty much what Pre said here about his FoRS is what was true for my BRZ for me. Coming from turbo Subies, including an STI, I definitely felt the lack of power and pull. But I honestly didn't mind because in my neck of the woods I couldn't really use the extra power anyway. However, there were plenty of twisties (Alaskan mountains) where the BRZ totally made sense.

100%, having ventured through all 50 states, if I lived somewhere flat, with miles of road, and/or elevated, I wouldn't even consider the Twins. They just wouldn't be fun at all. They are great fun for tuner cars, though.
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Old 06-09-2021, 12:53 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by BeepBoop View Post
Yes: they're cheap, cheap to operate, and they tick the boxes for all the correct baseline characteristics you want. Go to any track day and pay attn to which cars are actually turning in good times, and the vette is the only one on that list doing well. Otherwise, it's v8s, evos, s2000s, and stupid expensive cars (of the p-variety usually) actually performing well (at least if you're talking actual tracks and not SCCA parking lots).
If you really believe Miatas and the twins are not fast at track days, then you haven't been to very many nor seen any well setup ones with good drivers.

Here in Cali, we have an 86 cup that has a time attack style group of BRZ/86 drivers who are EXTREMELY fast even non forced induction wise:


Yes thats a whole 186whp, and 5 seconds faster than my Type-RA did with RE71Rs (and I'm not a "slow" driver).

And I see more slow vettes than slow Miatas at track days, because drivers.
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