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07-16-2009, 01:09 PM | #201 | |
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The only problem is that I started that document as a reference for myself, not the community. So I didn't keep exact notes as from where each fact came from. To do this, I would essentially have to redo all the research and cross reference everything. To me, it's not worth doing just to make this a sticky. So it is what it is... I honestly just wanted to help out those that are new to the subaru engine and ecu. As long as some people found it helpful, then it's all good. I'm not too worried about it not getting stickyed
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07-16-2009, 01:43 PM | #202 | ||
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I'm not trying to be negative about your work, just explaining my position as to why I would not give it any "official" status at the romraider site. I think it is very important to give credit from all sources in a clear manner when you have a document that is almost entirely based on other's work/opinions. It also allows others to easily find the original information and also to determine if something was inaccurately represented in the "translation". |
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07-16-2009, 02:10 PM | #203 | |
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Tea Cups has had plenty of time and is fully capable of compiling a guide using the format he prefers... and didn't. Now that you took the initiative, he's complaining and being stubborn until you comply to his demands. Ultimately just further frustrating/punishing the romraider community. Personally, i've tried finding information on tuning, asked and been ignored with the assumption that I should search for hours. Myself and tons of others thank YOU Bad Noodle. Last edited by irascible; 07-16-2009 at 02:22 PM. |
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07-16-2009, 02:32 PM | #204 | |
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07-16-2009, 02:50 PM | #205 | |||
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Bad Noodle, thanks for putting this together.
For those that want a sticky, use the subscribe to thread button, thanks. Here are some thing I thought you might want to look over. Quote:
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PS, how dare anyone insult tea cups on a open source tuning forum Last edited by sleepyfu; 07-16-2009 at 02:54 PM. Reason: PS, how dare anyone insult tea cups on a open source tuning forum |
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07-16-2009, 03:07 PM | #206 |
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Just be clear, I think Bad Noodle's guide can be very useful to those new to tuning. Certainly, no one else has even attempted to create tuning guide on that scale for OS. I've even made suggestions for corrections related to ECU logic (the only area I feel comfortable making definitive statements about) and he's fixed/updated those items for the most part.
Based on the info alone, I think it should be stickied, however, at least as far as the RomRaider site is concerned, I'm leary to do so due to, what I feel, are the lack of clear references. I'm not talking about line by line. Take a section from the document, for example: TUNING BOOST link1 link2 line3 ...TEXT... Something simple like that. The links could be links to individual posts, threads, or articles. |
07-16-2009, 03:08 PM | #207 |
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It's no big deal really, we just have different styles when it comes to intellectual property. To me, the guide is not meant to be the definite source of tuning info, it's not a professional document, and is not meant to be anything formal. It's just for fun.
I wrote it because I found all the official posts/stickys/thread intimidating and not meant for a newbie. To me, they were hard to understand and took a long long time to dig through before anything started making sense. The idea behind the guide is to lay down the ground work so that when readers go back and tackle the sticky's and FAQs, they make sense. If they research a topic, they have an understanding of the basics and can follow the conversation in the thread. The guide is meant as an intermediate step between not knowing anything and the stickys. It's just a starting point. Reader's shouldn't tune their cars without reading the official documents first. Either way, I appreciate all the work Tea Cups did in the tuning community and I'm sure RR wouldn't be as successful as it is if he wasn't so detail oriented. Last edited by Bad Noodle; 07-16-2009 at 03:14 PM. |
07-16-2009, 10:09 PM | #208 | |
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I also think it would be wrong for Tea Cups to link it anyhoo, and actually even allow it on the RomRaider website, regardless of it's helpfulness to the RomRaider community. It actually opens the RomRaider.com team up for legal action re plagarised works. You yourself are lucky that no one has taken action, because they are legally in their right to do so. Just because the authors you have copied are community members and not published authors, does not mean they are not protected by law from plagarism - regardless of your original intentions of the document. Just something for you to consider. Regards, Leslie. P.S. Don't get me wrong, I actually think the document is a great resource and valuable to Subaru tuners. It contains a lot of good information and I regularly point those ppl with tuning related questions to it. All it needs are a citations to the original authors of the information in it and all is good Last edited by wrxsti.l; 07-16-2009 at 11:28 PM. |
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07-16-2009, 11:22 PM | #209 |
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To be fair, he's not copying anything verbatim, but simply taking info from multiple sources and putting it in his own words. And, I assume, at least some of it he has learned through his own experience in tuning guided by what he's read (for example, some of the individual tuning steps). The document does have a list of screen names at the beginning of the authors of posts he's used as sources and there are some links at the end as well. So, IMO, it is more like a report that has insufficient documentation of references than any case of plagarism.
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07-16-2009, 11:29 PM | #210 |
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I guess it would be up to a magistrate/judge to decide that
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07-17-2009, 12:06 AM | #211 |
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07-17-2009, 12:21 AM | #212 |
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07-17-2009, 08:52 AM | #213 |
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Bad Noodle - if you want, I could help with the references if you can give me more details about the sites, forums and sub-forums where you were searching (and any additional authors not listed), I could probably find the posts myself and add the links to the documents. PM me if you are interested.
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07-17-2009, 11:56 AM | #214 |
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I definitely understand both points of view, but to be honest, how can you NOT side with Tea Cups. The amount of his own time he put into research and development of RR and everything else is enormous. And he did it all for free, when he could have easily charged money for how powerful his software is. All he's asking is to give more specific citation where its applicable. It doesn't have to be a research paper, but even rephrasing something without citation in this context is a bit out of bounds.
I certainly understand why Bad Noodle feels the way he does (considering this was never even written to be posted on a board), but considering its Tea Cups and not some random forum dude asking, its a bit different. That being said, the guide did exactly what Bad Noodle said it does for me at least I got a well rounded basic explanation, and when I wanted to know more I started lurking on RR, which is where I spend a ****load of my time now |
07-17-2009, 12:16 PM | #215 |
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^^^ totally agree, I had even started to make my own guide for personal purposed when I decided to learn about OS and tuning....when I found this I stoped
according to Noodle it started as a personal document that has turned out to SO MUCH more, I absolutely love it and Im always checking for updates, but becuase of what it has turned out to be it now has to be properly documented as Tea Cup point If more pleople voluntered a little bit of their time to help as Tea Cup has, we could probably get this done in no time......I dont know if I could be of any help since Im new to tuning but I would be willing to try |
07-17-2009, 12:25 PM | #216 | |
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It's a simple fact that Tea Cups, during all his work/research, could have easily compiled and maintained a guide in the format he desires.... which wasn't done. Now he's telling other's to reformat there's or he won't give it his "official" stamp of approval and make it a sticky on RR. Their are several other options that Tea Cups could chose from. 1. Make the guide a group effort, providing the links for sections he feels is missed. 2. Work with Bad Noodle to create a centralized repository like SourceForge where it can be modified/changed by select user's where revisions are controlled by approvers. Last edited by irascible; 07-17-2009 at 12:36 PM. |
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07-17-2009, 01:10 PM | #217 | |||
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07-17-2009, 01:12 PM | #218 | |
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Anyway, I've offered to help. I would really like to see this as a sticky at the romraider site. It isn't like I'm sitting on the sidelines here. I've already spent time going through and noting many correction/suggestions to the ECU logic portions of the document earlier, which Bad Noodle implemented for the most part. I'm willing to help out with the references as well as time permits. As far as creating my own guide, well, there are many things that I would like to do that I don't have time to do with all the other OS stuff. I literally spend about 15-20 hours a week of my free time when I am in the heat of definition creation (like now) and countless hours in IDA reverse engineering the ECU. Not to mention updating and adding new features to Learning View, answering ECU logic questions on various sites, and wearing the admin hat at the romraider site. I barely had time to do the ECU logic stickies, let alone create an entire tuning guide (for which there would be more qualified people as far as general tuning is concerned than I). So, I appreciate the work that Bad Noodle has done, but I think proper references are an important part if it is to be highlighted at the romraider site as a sticky and linked to in the FAQ. So, if you think that makes me look "childish", so be it, I don't spend time dwelling on what others think about me, positive or negative. |
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07-17-2009, 01:18 PM | #219 |
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Bad Noodle, thank you for that guide. I was one of the people reading bits and pieces of info all over the damn place. I would only grasp little bits of info as most of it I didn't understand. After reading your guide and getting the big picture I can now understand the more specific posts A LOT better.
Personally I don't think you should take all the time to go back and add references for each and every section, you did a fine job of making it known you did not write all the info yourself, that it came from a lot of smart people in the OS world. If those authors were all for profit, then it would be different, or if somebody went through and made a new guide with every author of info listed then it would be time to take yours down. Until that happens your guide is REALLY helping us newbs to tuning and understanding engine management. |
07-17-2009, 02:35 PM | #220 | |
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07-17-2009, 03:47 PM | #221 | |
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If I read everything correctly, thats really the only source of disagreement. Tea Cups said its got ton of good info for n00bs and its worthy of being stickied. He's just hesitant to put it on HIS site because of the issues listed. |
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07-17-2009, 04:40 PM | #222 | |||
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Here's the post, and personally I called his request childish for a few reasons, mainly because there was no real justification for bringing his RR personal views to Nasioc, and secondly the comment he made at this end of this post. Quote:
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Last edited by irascible; 07-17-2009 at 04:59 PM. |
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07-17-2009, 04:42 PM | #223 | |
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There is already a post about his guide at the site, so it isn't like it is forbidden or something. I was just hesistant to sticky it and reference it in the FAQ until the sources were documented properly. Not sure why some people would have a problem with proper credit being given to those whose information is the source of the document? The added benefit is that anyone reading it can simply click on the source(s) of the info and get more detailt there. OMFG! That's such a childish request! Anyway, I'm done arguing about this. Bad Noodle PM'd me, so hopefully I can help in some way. But, if he ends up not wanting to do it, that's cool - it is up to him, obviously. |
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07-17-2009, 04:49 PM | #224 |
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The justification is to see if the document could be updated with the proper references. People wanted it to be a sticky. Doesn't appear that is going to happen on Nasioc for whatever reason, so I made a suggestion on changes needed so I could sticky it at the RR site. Is it really that complicated?
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07-17-2009, 06:54 PM | #225 | |
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It was a personal document that he decided to share with the community. The "proper references" is a matter of opinion, which is yours, and only yours. And in case you haven't noticed, this isn't RR. And, if you wanted to sticky it over on RR... you would. Besides, thought you were "done argueing about this". |
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