Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Saturday October 24, 2020
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Proven Power Bragging

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-22-2015, 08:02 PM   #76
sponaugle
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4498
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle:
WRX H6-3.0 Turbo
www.surgelinetuning.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VladiWrX View Post
I can't tell you how much I enjoy reading all of your threads like this one.
THank you for the follow up
Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
I love your posts. how many miles do you have on the engine? and which car is more fun to drive the GTR or the suby in your opinion
I think the engine has between 15k-20k, and the car has 60kish. It is hard to put a single opinion about those two cars because of course they are so different. The STI is light, tossable, fun, quick, and a Subaru. The R35 GTR is just so damn fast, especially now with 750whp. It is insanely quick at building speed, and the launch control is something that never gets old. Being a newer car, it is also just more comfortable and easier to drive. Perhaps what I like best is having both, as are so different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
Awesome, I love your posts.

Quick question for you:

I run a TMIC with a 6758, but my post TMIC temps easily get into the 140s if I go through the gears. (tested with multiple different TMICs) I use a GM fast acting IAT sensor post TMIC.

Here is the cool tuning stuff:

I have alky injection, but don't use any failsafes. It is tuned for pump, but I run minimal alky in the summer for extra protection. I have the car tuned such that AFRs and timing is affected by IAT. (not sure if anyone has done it before, but in my 2013 STI there is a table that affects AFR based off IAT timing adjustment) To sum up, if my IAT sensor shows 70F, my called for AFR is about 11.2. If my IAT shows 140F, 10.6.

Then I decided to experiment with different alky nozzle placements. If I placed it fairly close to the GM IAT, it would artificially lower IAT, and thereby run more timing and leaner AFR. So based off what the ECU sees as IAT, my car kinda compensates for itself based in injected alky.

At any rate, if my alky jet is close to my Fast acting GM IAT sensor it only lasts a few weeks (good thing it is only $15).

So my question is, Can I use a thermocouple close to an alky jet? Will it last? Can it be used in place of an IAT, and just scale the ECU accordingly?
Also, any links to where I can buy such thermocouple?


Thanks
Great setup, and I like the use of the IAT adjustments to change the tune. The short answer is yes, you can use a thermocouple as the AIT input. To do that, you need a simple K-Type thermocouple to 0-5V converter. In my car I used this:

http://www.adafruit.com/products/177...FU6SfgodF94LTg

It is a $12 board that take a K-type thermocouple input and outputs a 0-5V signal which you can drive directly into the stock ECU. Obviously the range of a K-type is much larger then what you need for AITs, but they are very strong and resistant to damage. I am using an exposed tip probe like this:

http://www.exhaustgas.com/ProductDet...pID=&BasketID=

That is an exposed type sensor, about $60 in cost. I have had mine in place for a while with no problems, even at <300F.

As for the response of a thermocoupler compared to the GM sensor:



You can see the thermocouple has a faster fall off and is quicker to respond to temperature changes.

Thermocouples are pretty robust devices, and resist high temperatures, even unburnt fuel. I suspect one would work well in your application.

In ECUs that don't have a target AFR correction based on IAT you could get the same result by running speed density and adjusting the IAT corrections to be more then the baseline at higher IATs, as that would cause the same outcome. Good stuff.


Jeff
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Last edited by sponaugle; 10-22-2015 at 08:21 PM.
sponaugle is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 10-22-2015, 11:34 PM   #77
LittleBlueGT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 96204
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Location: Winnipeg
Vehicle:
2013 STI GR
White

Default

Thanks Jeff.

I am just starting to learn about thermocouples, but I kinda think I want one with a bit less temp range for higher resolution. I think I have seen some that are -50C to +200C. Just not sure where to find the amplifier for that to convert it into 0-5V.
LittleBlueGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2015, 01:03 AM   #78
sponaugle
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4498
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle:
WRX H6-3.0 Turbo
www.surgelinetuning.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
Thanks Jeff.

I am just starting to learn about thermocouples, but I kinda think I want one with a bit less temp range for higher resolution. I think I have seen some that are -50C to +200C. Just not sure where to find the amplifier for that to convert it into 0-5V.
There are other thermocouple with reduced range, like the T-Type, which is good for -250C to +350C. While that would be a better range for this case, you will have to dig around to find a thermocouple amp. There are ones for T-Type, but I have not seen many that are as inexpensive as the one I mentioned above.

EDIT: I did find an amp using the LT1025 that would work for you.
http://www.herdware.com/shop/analog/...ple-amplifier/

Also, while there is a desire to have a thermocouple that is more accurate, I don't think it is needed. The overall accuracy is probably more limited by the response time as well as the ability of the sensor to correctly represent the temperature of air as it goes past at high speed.

The K type sensor itself is only accurate to about +/- 2 deg C, while the T type is good to +/- 1 deg C. In practice the sensors will have for more resolution, but across multiple sensors you will get a wider spread.

There are also some limits in what the ECU can read, as the A/D for the IAT circuit is probably something like 10 bit. With a 0-5V range spanning 1450 degrees C, you would be limited to about +/- 1.5 degrees.

That being said, if you can find a good T-Type amp, go for it!

Jeff
sponaugle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2015, 01:41 AM   #79
Airboy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 72829
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Location: Calgary, Canada
Vehicle:
2006 WRX
2015 WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
EDIT: I did find an amp using the LT1025 that would work for you.
http://www.herdware.com/shop/analog/...ple-amplifier/


Jeff
Great find. I have been looking for something like that. Saw it mentioned here: http://hackaday.com/2015/04/06/how-t...ple-amplifier/
but didn't know it was actually in production.

The turbo outlet temp of my EFR6758 reached as high as 185C (365F). Pretty sure that is hotter than a hair dryer
Airboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2015, 10:07 AM   #80
wgr73
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 232458
Join Date: Dec 2009
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Las Cruces/El Paso
Vehicle:
2005 & 2008 STi
Cobb 20g & EFR 7670

Default

Great update, thanks Jeff! Love the data you always provide!
wgr73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2015, 10:30 AM   #81
sponaugle
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4498
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle:
WRX H6-3.0 Turbo
www.surgelinetuning.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airboy View Post
Great find. I have been looking for something like that. Saw it mentioned here: http://hackaday.com/2015/04/06/how-t...ple-amplifier/
but didn't know it was actually in production.

The turbo outlet temp of my EFR6758 reached as high as 185C (365F). Pretty sure that is hotter than a hair dryer
Yea, that is the one from Hackaday. It is a good simple design, however if I remember correctly it is 10mv/C for all sensor types. That means a temperature range of 0-500C for 0-5Vs with either a K type or a T Type (or any of the other types it supports). It treats K and T as the same thing (notice the inputs are the same for K and T) because those two thermocouples very similar curves. Note the curves are not the same however, so you would have an error. I'd have to dig deeper to see which way the error goes, but K-types are more linear overall.



That circuit could be changed to allow a different range output (changing the gain resistance on the opamp).
sponaugle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2015, 11:53 AM   #82
tomtom84
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 167794
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: o-k-l-a-h-o-m-a
Vehicle:
08 STI 6266 e85 DD
91 miata and 05 STI

Default

thanks for updating this thread!
tomtom84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2015, 05:05 PM   #83
wchafe
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 361580
Join Date: Jul 2013
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: St. John's, NL, Canada
Vehicle:
2014 STi 5dr
WRB

Default

Great thread and thank you for the update. Your info on thermocouples was very timely as I was just considering using a thermocouple rather than the GM sensor for faster response times. What are you using for pressure sensors pre/post IC?

Last edited by wchafe; 10-26-2015 at 05:42 PM.
wchafe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2015, 07:11 PM   #84
LittleBlueGT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 96204
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Location: Winnipeg
Vehicle:
2013 STI GR
White

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wchafe View Post
Great thread and thank you for the update. Your info on thermocouples was very timely as I was just considering using a thermocouple rather than the GM sensor for faster response times. What are you using for pressure sensors pre/post IC?
I won't have time to do this until spring time, so if you do, pls post up what thermocouple you bought, were exactly you put it, and then what amp you used.
LittleBlueGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2020, 02:32 PM   #85
alexmartynyuk
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 191967
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Vancouver
Vehicle:
2005 EVO VIII
@boost_reality

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
I was using an AEM 5 bar map sensor, seen here:



The resulting VE table:



Note that there has been next to zero tuning of the off boost areas, so donít look at those with a scornful eye. It is also worthwhile to note that all of the values are lower than many other maps, and this is a direct result of the fuel scalar. If the fuel scalar was made smaller, these numbers would go up. The other side effect of these being a bit lower is a lower Ďload valueí. At over 420 lb-ft of torque the load didnít surpass 3.0. It is all just a math trick and doesnít really correspond to anything important, but if you are comparing maps you should scale each map to the same peak value.


The primary and dynamic ignition tables:





I typically have a dynamic map that has scaled values that ramp up at higher load ( thus if knock occurs and IAM is reduced it is more dramatic at higher loads), but for some reason I didnít do that. For my car it really isnít a big deal, as I donít think I have ever had the IAM go down. None the less add the two maps together plus comps for final timing.

The intake and exhaust AVCS:





Compared to the map I ran previously, we extended the AVCS a little bit farther, and it did infact increase VE in the 5200-5900 rpm region. Doing more then 25 degrees in the spoolup area made no difference.

Last here is the open look fueling. Pretty simple.



I always find it personally annoying when the called for AFRs are not the same, so over time Iíll adjust these and the VE map to get better alignment. Last but not least, here is a look at the actual ignition timing overlayed on the SD map:



Those with a good eye might notice this is not a Cobb screen. The night before the tune I was flying back to Portland from JFK and thought it would be helpful to have a tool that could overlay values from log files onto different maps, so I cranked this puppy out while wheels were up. I have since added something much more usefulÖ A way to paste in your current VE map, play a log file with differential targets (called for vs actual) plus ST and LT fuel trims, and it calculates a new VE map, with proper 4 cell distribution
and all. Not sure if this is useful to anyone else.

I welcome any and all comments/suggestions/ridicule/etc.

Cheers,

Jeff


(note I'll fixed the newline formatting in the posts in just a sec)
Sorry for the thread bump, was just browsing around and found this thread. I do a lot of my own tuning and i'm near portland. Just wanted to say D**N you are able to run some timing! Similar sized turbos I have usually never been able to run more than 19* at 7k and 22-23psi boost and 11 flat afr and supposedly 92 octane as well.
alexmartynyuk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2020 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.