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Old 01-10-2019, 03:39 PM   #51
godfather2112
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Truly rich Americans don't flaunt their wealth too publicly. It's only kids and the new money driving around in flash cars. If they really care about cars the money will go into some Pebble Beach quality restoration.

I was told that by a retired Michigan State Police officer, and maybe it's true as I've been pulled over three times for speeding and ticketed once in fourteen years.
You’re talking about wealthy people, not rich people Rich people have high income but spend cash like it’s going out of style. Wealthy people live below their means, invest, and don’t live house or payment broke.
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Old 01-10-2019, 11:41 PM   #52
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I'm comparing a $35k CPO bmw with 20-25k miles to that when its new around $60k. Go take a look at what CPO'd 5 series go for when new, then find some that are cpo'd with 20-30k miles. Big price drop!
I'd never touch a new 5 series, cause yeah, depreciation is nutty on 5 series and up.
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Old 01-10-2019, 11:43 PM   #53
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You’re talking about wealthy people, not rich people Rich people have high income but spend cash like it’s going out of style. Wealthy people live below their means, invest, and don’t live house or payment broke.
Chris Rock explains it, lol.

"A white man gets rich, he builds a Walmart, and helps other white people get some money. A brother gets rich, he buys some jewelry."

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Old 01-11-2019, 03:00 PM   #54
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Default Richer Americans Are Skipping SUVs for Station Wagons

This article is extremely misleading. Outback is 180,000 of the wagon sales. If you take out the other crossover wagons (Allroad, TourX, V60 cross country, and V90 cross country, you are down to 25 thousand actual wagon sales out of 17 million autos sold.

3 series wagon down (half)
E class wagon down
Clubman wagon down (almost half)
Golf wagon down (almost half)
V60 down (almost half)

The only true wagon up that has a year of sales to go against is the V90

You could do this exercise with crossover coupes and add 14K more sales and have the same affluent buyer story to tell.

Last edited by SoDealer; 01-11-2019 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:29 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by SoDealer View Post
This article is extremely misleading. Outback is 180,000 of the wagon sales. If you take out the other crossover wagons (Allroad, TourX, V60 cross country, and V90 cross country, you are down to 25 thousand actual wagon sales out of 17 million autos sold.

3 series wagon down (half)
E class wagon down
Clubman wagon down (almost half)
Golf wagon down (almost half)
V60 down (almost half)

The only true wagon up that has a year of sales to go against is the V90

You could do this exercise with crossover coupes and add 14K more sales and have the same affluent buyer story to tell.
Making a wagon a couple inches higher and slapping on some plastic does not negate it being a wagon. At least the Outback is considerably higher but the TourX and the rest are an inch or two at best.

The new V60 hasn't been released to the U.S. yet either. Clubman is a hatch (wife has one and its the same size as a golf).
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:24 PM   #56
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Making a wagon a couple inches higher and slapping on some plastic does not negate it being a wagon. At least the Outback is considerably higher but the TourX and the rest are an inch or two at best.

The new V60 hasn't been released to the U.S. yet either. Clubman is a hatch (wife has one and its the same size as a golf).
I was about to say the same thing about Outback vs anything else.
Outback rides pretty high (8.7" !) ever since MY2010; none of the other "crossover wagon" rides this high !

I've seen TourX in person; that thing is wide, long and it rides LOW, it's a wagon through and through:

Quote:
The TourX has roughly ¾-inch more ground clearance than the Regal Sportback, half of which is “ride-height tuning,” better known as taller springs, and the other half is are 235/50R18s in place of the hatchback’s 245/45R18s.
https://www.automobilemag.com/news/f...k-regal-tourx/

Last edited by neg_matnik; 01-11-2019 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:10 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by SoDealer View Post
This article is extremely misleading. Outback is 180,000 of the wagon sales. If you take out the other crossover wagons (Allroad, TourX, V60 cross country, and V90 cross country, you are down to 25 thousand actual wagon sales out of 17 million autos sold.

3 series wagon down (half)
E class wagon down
Clubman wagon down (almost half)
Golf wagon down (almost half)
V60 down (almost half)

The only true wagon up that has a year of sales to go against is the V90

You could do this exercise with crossover coupes and add 14K more sales and have the same affluent buyer story to tell.
It’s definitely an interesting take. If you show up to any given dealer that sells a brand who is brave enough to offer a wagon, I wonder how many would be in stock to sell. Most Americans do not special order vehicles, even affluent ones. The wagon traditionally has never been in high stock. The Outback might be alone in the history of wagons where any given dealer had more than 30 of them for people to buy. When I bought my 07 Legacy sedan there were something like 25 Legacy sedans and zero wagons. In 05 it was a totally different story. Dealers had tons and tons of wagons. This is likely the greatest cause of dealer trolls hating on wagons. Subaru done spent their load in ‘05 and ruined it for good. I wonder if it had something to do with ramping up production and getting workers trained before the launch of the Tribeca?
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:36 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Genericuser1 View Post
The new V60 hasn't been released to the U.S. yet either.
It's a special order only car. I think a bad move, but Volvo is playing it rather conservative. You can, however, order one today.

--kC
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:43 PM   #59
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It's a special order only car. I think a bad move, but Volvo is playing it rather conservative. You can, however, order one today.

--kC
Or get a new 2018 TourX for $10K off MSRP right off dealership lots...
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:52 PM   #60
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Or get a new 2018 TourX for $10K off MSRP right off dealership lots...
Yep. I've driven one and it's not a bad car at all. I also know a couple people with them, and same thing, it's a solid car for what it is. I may go drive one again tomorrow as a matter of fact. Theres a dealer near me with a handful of the Essences, and GM has a $5k cash on them, along with ~20% off...

My only qualm is the interior. Beige is the most plentiful from the cars on the lots. Few with gray. ANd I'd get one loaded with the three major options too, driver confidence 1, 2 and sights and sounds pkg, if I were to get one.

--kC
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:09 PM   #61
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wagons make sense i guess in warm climate. I cant see in anywhere with snow why you wouldn't want the ground clearance that comes from an SUV.
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:36 PM   #62
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wagons make sense i guess in warm climate. I cant see in anywhere with snow why you wouldn't want the ground clearance that comes from an SUV.
That goes for the Impreza, Legacy, WRX, STI.
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Old 01-12-2019, 08:07 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
It’s definitely an interesting take. If you show up to any given dealer that sells a brand who is brave enough to offer a wagon, I wonder how many would be in stock to sell. Most Americans do not special order vehicles, even affluent ones. The wagon traditionally has never been in high stock. The Outback might be alone in the history of wagons where any given dealer had more than 30 of them for people to buy. When I bought my 07 Legacy sedan there were something like 25 Legacy sedans and zero wagons. In 05 it was a totally different story. Dealers had tons and tons of wagons. This is likely the greatest cause of dealer trolls hating on wagons. Subaru done spent their load in ‘05 and ruined it for good. I wonder if it had something to do with ramping up production and getting workers trained before the launch of the Tribeca?
Dealers quit stocking when people quit buying. When the 05 Legacy/Outback launched, customers walked right around the wagons to buy Outbacks. the situation was evidenced with the higher incentives on the less profitable legacy wagons vs Outbacks. Subaru held on longer than most brands. The argument put forth by this article is propped up almost entirely by including Outbacks in the sales number and adding in other jacked up wagons. There's no story here.
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Old 01-12-2019, 01:03 PM   #64
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wagons make sense i guess in warm climate. I cant see in anywhere with snow why you wouldn't want the ground clearance that comes from an SUV.
Here in snow country we have these things called snowplows, they clear the roads pretty quickly after it snows. Very rarely we get stuck up in the mountains and have to wait a short time for one to pass and clear the road for us. Then when we get home we may have to break out this thing called a snowblower to clear the driveway before we park our wagons in their snug little garages.

In a lifetime of living where it snows and in some places where it snows a lot I can count on my fingers the times I really wished I had an SUV and those times were not because of snow.
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Old 01-12-2019, 02:50 PM   #65
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wagons make sense i guess in warm climate. I cant see in anywhere with snow why you wouldn't want the ground clearance that comes from an SUV.
Depends whether you go into the snow when it snows (avid skier) or stay home. In Massachusetts I feel I need ground clearance like once every 10 years.
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Old 01-12-2019, 03:04 PM   #66
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Here in snow country we have these things called snowplows, they clear the roads pretty quickly after it snows. Very rarely we get stuck up in the mountains and have to wait a short time for one to pass and clear the road for us. Then when we get home we may have to break out this thing called a snowblower to clear the driveway before we park our wagons in their snug little garages.

In a lifetime of living where it snows and in some places where it snows a lot I can count on my fingers the times I really wished I had an SUV and those times were not because of snow.
Very true. And typical SUV is like an extra 4” clearance or something? Pretty narrow window where 5” is not enough but 9” is. Which is what she said.
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Old 01-13-2019, 10:06 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Genericuser1 View Post
Making a wagon a couple inches higher and slapping on some plastic does not negate it being a wagon. At least the Outback is considerably higher but the TourX and the rest are an inch or two at best.

The new V60 hasn't been released to the U.S. yet either. Clubman is a hatch (wife has one and its the same size as a golf).
If the 02-07 WRX was a wagon, the Clubman is a wagon. It has a decent rear overhang, so I consider it a wagon despite having the same overall length as a Golf. The 3 and 5 door MINIs are hatchbacks.
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Old 01-14-2019, 07:30 AM   #68
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If the 02-07 WRX was a wagon, the Clubman is a wagon. It has a decent rear overhang, so I consider it a wagon despite having the same overall length as a Golf. The 3 and 5 door MINIs are hatchbacks.
As someone who owns a 2006 WRX wagon; are you joking?

mini clubman - 17.5 cuft with seats up
02-07 wrx wagon - 27.9 cuft with seats up
golf hb - 17.4 cuft with the seats up (for comparison)

If you aren't joking, get your eyes checked, or look at the side profiles again.
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Old 01-14-2019, 09:28 AM   #69
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Default Richer Americans Are Skipping SUVs for Station Wagons

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As someone who owns a 2006 WRX wagon; are you joking?

mini clubman - 17.5 cuft with seats up
02-07 wrx wagon - 27.9 cuft with seats up
golf hb - 17.4 cuft with the seats up (for comparison)

If you aren't joking, get your eyes checked, or look at the side profiles again.
3rd large window that runs straight back from the rear passenger door window and squared off rear means wagon to me. It is a sub compact wagon (and not particularly space efficient in the design), so the volumes are smaller. Small wagon, but a wagon.

5 door hatch


Clubman
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Old 01-14-2019, 09:38 AM   #70
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Wagon: roof must be greater than 50% of cargo area it covers behind rearmost seats AND have a C pillar with window. Interior volume matters none.

Mini 5 door is a hatch.
Clubman is a wagon.
VW Golf is a hatch (no '3rd' window)

--kC
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:30 AM   #71
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3rd large window that runs straight back from the rear passenger door window and squared off rear means wagon to me. It is a sub compact wagon (and not particularly space efficient in the design), so the volumes are smaller. Small wagon, but a wagon.

5 door hatch


Clubman
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Originally Posted by KC View Post
Wagon: roof must be greater than 50% of cargo area it covers behind rearmost seats AND have a C pillar with window. Interior volume matters none.

Mini 5 door is a hatch.
Clubman is a wagon.
VW Golf is a hatch (no '3rd' window)

--kC
Wagon it is; my bad.
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:45 AM   #72
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Based solely on the available wagons vs. SUVs, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the article is a bit off.

How many wagons are over $100k (E63 & Panamera Sport Turismo are the only ones that comes to mind)?

SUVs over $100k:
Audi
BMW
Cadillac
Lamborghini
Land Rover/Range Rover
Lexus
Mercedes
Porsche
Rolls Royce
Tesla
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:51 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by KC View Post
Wagon: roof must be greater than 50% of cargo area it covers behind rearmost seats AND have a C pillar with window. Interior volume matters none.

Mini 5 door is a hatch.
Clubman is a wagon.
VW Golf is a hatch (no '3rd' window)

--kC
Put that way I guess you are right just a really small damn wagon. To me the old V60 or the Jetta is about as small of a car that I'd call a wagon but technically speaking I agree with you.

As much as I like wagons there won't be anything I want that I can afford and I have family duties for the next vehicle.

I'll be saving the old van for the kids to drive (son will be 16 in a few months) so I'll end up with a mid-size or large utility. Next car after that I can go back to something sporty. By then probably an electric
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