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Old 10-07-2016, 06:43 AM   #701
Samurai Jack
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Stickier tires alone is not the only answer to more stopping power but since tires are what make contact between the car and the road, they are a big part.

Increasing stopping power is comprised of multiple elements, and tires are part of that equation
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Old 10-07-2016, 03:24 PM   #702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Jack View Post
Stickier tires alone is not the only answer to more stopping power but since tires are what make contact between the car and the road, they are a big part.
Yeah, I would agree with this. "Stopping Power" is kind of a vague term unless you're using actual numbers to back it up, like stopping distance of a specific weighted vehicle from a specific speed at a specific temperature and road condition, etc.
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Old 10-12-2016, 12:18 PM   #703
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Amen, post is spot on.
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Old 11-02-2016, 06:31 PM   #704
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All of that makes perfect sense to me, but something that I do appreciate (and am willing to spend a reasonable amount of money on) is brake feel.

If one were looking to improve the brake feel or that "confidence" that people talk about in regards to braking systems on different cars, is it enough to upgrade the pads? Do SS brake lines make a noticeable difference at the cost of $100-200 (plus time for a self install)?
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Old 11-02-2016, 10:27 PM   #705
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanna-K View Post
All of that makes perfect sense to me, but something that I do appreciate (and am willing to spend a reasonable amount of money on) is brake feel.

If one were looking to improve the brake feel or that "confidence" that people talk about in regards to braking systems on different cars, is it enough to upgrade the pads? Do SS brake lines make a noticeable difference at the cost of $100-200 (plus time for a self install)?
Pads will greatly influence feel. Nothing like the bite of higher metallic content pads and nothing worse than the non-linear numb ceramics. Keep in mind though - Brembo equipped cars typically have far better brake pads.

Aside from caliper replacement nothing beats a well matched pad.
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Old 11-07-2016, 05:23 PM   #706
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Originally Posted by KNS Brakes View Post
Pads will greatly influence feel. Nothing like the bite of higher metallic content pads and nothing worse than the non-linear numb ceramics. Keep in mind though - Brembo equipped cars typically have far better brake pads.

Aside from caliper replacement nothing beats a well matched pad.
Is there a high metallic street pad that you would recommend? If I'm understanding what I'm reading from different sites on the web correctly, the only downsides would be:

1. Faster wear on the pad compared to Ceramic (not a big deal to me)
2. More brake dust
3. Possibly more noise (would like to avoid that if possible) - squeaky brakes drive me nuts
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Old 11-07-2016, 08:37 PM   #707
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Originally Posted by Zanna-K View Post
Is there a high metallic street pad that you would recommend? If I'm understanding what I'm reading from different sites on the web correctly, the only downsides would be:

1. Faster wear on the pad compared to Ceramic (not a big deal to me)
2. More brake dust
3. Possibly more noise (would like to avoid that if possible) - squeaky brakes drive me nuts
I have had many good reviews on Ferodo DS2500 brake pads.
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Old 11-11-2016, 12:52 AM   #708
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I'm just looking for some big flashy Wilwoods. Why do you have to add logic to this!! Good thread 👍🏼
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Old 11-11-2016, 11:00 PM   #709
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Originally Posted by aboveaveragejoe View Post
I'm just looking for some big flashy Wilwoods. Why do you have to add logic to this!! Good thread 👍🏼
I say there's nothing wrong with getting some flashy big brakes, as long as you know that it's mostly just cosmetic and that makes you happy.
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Old 11-21-2016, 04:53 PM   #710
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I find it hilarious that someone would argue against your point.
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Old 11-26-2016, 08:10 PM   #711
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Brakes are important. Make sure you purchase quality pads
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Old 12-06-2016, 05:32 PM   #712
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Default warped rotors!

Yep! gotta put some vented ones on!
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Old 12-08-2016, 05:55 PM   #713
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awesome post
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Old 03-07-2017, 09:18 PM   #714
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even my disc/drum OBS +pirelli strada+ eyeballs popping out under braking
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Old 03-12-2017, 12:31 AM   #715
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Thank you for this! can any recommend good OEM replacement Pads & Rotors? I have a 2014 Impreza hatch. 2.0/
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Old 03-22-2017, 08:50 PM   #716
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Default This was very helpful. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
READ THIS FIRST

The point of this thread, since no one seems to be able to get this, and I will add it to the first post is


I have a 95 Impreza and have been wondering about the brakes. This thread answered every question I had. Thank you for that.





99% of people, with increased power, the only time they are going to need stopping power greater than what a bone stock brake/tire setup can offer, is when they are going down the road and have an "OH ISHT" panic brake situation.

And in that situation, there is no brake setup on the planet that will stop you any faster than the OEM pads/rotors/lines/fluid will.
The ONLY thing that will shorten that distance, is a stickier tire.


And for most people, they mod their car and they go out and rail on it from a stop or roll, usually in a straight line. The braking power they have to worry about is going to come into play

when they see a cop
When they hit a red light
When something is coming out in front of them
When there is some reason they need to get on the brakes hard and fast to avoid hitting something.

None of those things would see any benefit whatsoever, from upgraded pads,rotors, lines, or fluid, or any combination of them. Only a stickier tire is going to make the car slow down or stop in a shorter distance.


So, to be clear, if in an effort to make the message of this post look incorrect, you are posting something completely irrelevant if you

1. You bring up power gains
2. You bring up racing
3. You bring up anything other than the type of street driving that 99% of people actually do.
---Most people don't do canyon runs or anything similar to that.

Unfortunately, those 3 points above, encompass at least half the responses in this thread
Point is, stop trying to come up with situations that I am not talking about, just to make this post look incorrect, to justify what you spent on your brake kit. Maybe you do something that requires it, most people however, even with 400+whp, don't, and won't.



And just to make it clear once again.

For 99% of people with increased HP, the main brake performance issue is going to be

Panic braking in an emergency situation (be it a cop, old lady pulling in front of them, or just oh **** a red light)













When people talk about modding their car to make more power, someone almost always comes in and tells them that with more power, they need more handling and more braking.

While this is solid reasoning, its not always a necessity.

My personal philosophy is that when upgrading a vehicle, address everything, to maintain a nice balance.

However, there is a flaw with part of the logic of "if you upgrade one you must upgrade all 3 in order to remain safe"

If you go from stock, to 400whp, upgrading the brakes, IS NOT NEEDED AND YOU WILL BE NO SAFER THAN YOU WOULD BE ON STOCK BRAKES.

Now, I know a lot of you are now no longer reading this and are already forming your replies, and unfortunately many of you will base them on beliefs you have formed by reading what others have said on the internet, who only said what they said, because they read it on the internet. Or based on misconceptions. (some of you may have well thought out and solid arguements as well) Those of you about to say I am wrong, I assure you, are wrong. Please do me and yourselves a favor, and make sure you UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING before replying.

Here is the thing.

A WRX with @170whp (stock 2.0L typical) traveling at 10, 40, 60, 130mph, will take the exact same force to stop, as a fire breathing alcohol fueled 800whp WRX traveling 10, 40, 60, 130mph.


Take either of those cars, put a $14000 stoptech 8 piston f/6piston r setup, and do the same full boogie panic stops, and what do we get?

THE EXACT SAME STOPPING DISTANCE.

(now, lets leave heat induced fade off the table for now, as it isnt something that 90% of people that would argue that you have to upgrade the brakes would ever run into on stock brakes anyway) For the sake of this discussion, lets look at what people are really talking about. Panic stops, someone pulls in front of you OH ISHT nailing the brakes to avoid hitting them, stopping or the rate at which you can slow down enough to avoid impact (since you dont always have to stop)

Why is that?

What stops cars? What is the ultimate force that determines what point the traveling vehicle will no longer be traveling?

Friction. Not the friction between the pads and the rotors, but the friction between the tire and the road.


Now, lets take 2 cars again.

First WRX, 170whp, bone stock brakes. 225/45/17s in a dot legal R compound.

Second car, whatever WHP, and $7k in brake upgrades. Stock tires. Heck lets even say they went to stock STI 225/45/17 RE070s.

Send both cars down the same road, in the same weather conditions at the same speed. Have someone pull out in front of them.

Tell me, which one will stop short enough, or be able to slow down fast enough to avoid a wreck?

I bet more than half of nasioc would pick the car with $7k in brake upgrades. Those people would all be in an accident.



How does a car stop? Well, how does it move? What moves, that causes the big hunk of metal to move?

TIRES.

What gets a car off the line faster? Less wheelspin. WHat gets you less wheelspin? Stickier tires.

What gets you through a corner faster? More traction, what gets you more traction? Stickier tires.

Just like when you are trying to accelerate a vehicle, the amount of grip the tire has on the road, will determine how fast you can get moving forward (or backwards if you are a launch in reverse type of guy ) Its the EXACT SAME THING when trying to slow or stop.

OEM brakes have FAR more than enough power to lock up even a big wide sticky r compound tire.

People like to cite that the STI has a shorter stopping distance with its Brembos. The brembos have nothing to do with it. The RE92s have everything to do with it.



So a lot of people at this point, will argue that "well then why do they put brembos and big brakes on sports cars if they dont stop you any shorter"

The answer is intended purpose, and as much as many people dont want to believe, LOOKS/CUSTOMER PERCEPTION.

The "intended use" for the STI is hard performance driving. Track days, racing, its a car with actual motorsport use in mind. Even if they have watered it down and softened it for normal day to day use, its still a car that was built for motorsport use.

Big fixed mount calipers with lots of pistons, and large diameter rotors offer something a floating caliper with normal sized rotors dont offer. Mass. More mass=more resistance to heat induced fade. They also offer a more consistant and precise pedal, which allows finer braking control into corners.

They also offer a look. Like the new WRX, look at how many people complain that they "downgraded" the brakes. When in fact, from a stopping distance standpoint, there is no change.

Look at the competition for the STI, the EVO. What would happen to STi sales if they removed the brembos and the EVO kept them? That would sway those people who are on the fence, a little more towards the EVO.

Finally, lets look at the group-N STI rally cars. What brakes do they run?

That's right, not the Brembos. They run the older FHI 4 pot/2 pot setup in order to clear the smaller rally wheels. Yet they stop JUST FINE.



Lines, well lines are, from a stopping distance and fade standpoint, completely useless. Nail the brakes, things lock up rubber or steel lines makes no difference. Heat the brakes up, stainless lines have nothing to do with anything.

What lines DO get you, is a more consistant pedal, allowing more precise control.



Fluid, unless you are doing repeated hard braking enough to boil normal fluid, going to "upgraded" fluid, is a waste of money, and $18/bottle motul wont get you anything that $3 autozone fluid wont.




Rotors? NEVER an upgrade unless your factory rotors are damaged/very worn. Or if you go to a larger diameter rotor. Even then, that will only increase the amount of force per bit of pedal travel, to the point where they just lock up. Which would have happened on OEM sized rotors anyway. Slotted/drilled, at this point, is pointless and is for looks. Modern pads dont off gas like they used to, so having the slots/dimples/holes to vent off the gasses, well there is no need. Not only that, but 90% of drilled rotors will end up cracking. So if you want the look, GO FOR IT!, but buy a rotor that was cast with holes, not a solid that was drilled after. Break out the wallet though, and be prepared to search, not many people carry them and they arent cheap. If you do shows, do what I did, carry a set of $99 ebay cross drilled rotors with you and slap them on at the show. It takes 20 min.





"BUT MY BUDDY PUT BREMBOS ON HIS WRX WITH WTFBBQ ALLOY PADS, SUPERBUTTSEKS INCREDITAINIUM LINES AND CHUCK NORRIS BRAND FLUID AND IT STOPS WAY HARDER."


No, it doesnt. It has a lot more INITIAL BITE.
95% of people will mistake initial bite and/or decreased pedal travel, for the ability to stop shorter.

A locked tire is a locked tire. And while big brakes can lock a tire without having to push the pedal as hard, stock brakes can still lock the tires instantly if you nail the pedal. Therefor, stopping distance and rate of slowing down, is unchanged.,




So what can you do to make the car safer if you up the power?

Well, for one thing, if you are driving responsibly and within the law, why do you need to upgrade the brakes at all? Ok so obviously that is a dumb point to bring up

No but seriously, you upped the power and you want the car to be able to stop shorter


Well, as we have established, the grip of the tire on the road is the ultimate determining factor, so you want wider and or stickier tires. Preferably, both.

There is another aspect to look at too. Weight. A heavy object takes more force to accelerate or decelerate than a lighter one.

Put your car and yourself on a diet.

I think its hilarious that someone adding 50whp, and refusing to upgrade the brakes, is shunned and flamed, yet someone adding 200lbs of stereo gear/other things, no one even mentions the brakes. Rest assured that 200lbs of weight WILL increase stopping distance measureably.






Handling, thats another story altogether. A car that handles better is always safer than one that doesnt. In fact if you are so worried about safety, handling should be your first priority. Guess where the very first place you should look when it comes to handling Yup, those same black round things that will make you stop shorter.





This is a bit of a mind dump, so forgive me if it jumps around a bit or if I missed something or repeated myself.

Ill add more or edit it as needed when I get a minute.
I have a 95 Impreza and have been wondering about the brakes. This thread answered every question I had. Thank you for that.
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Old 06-03-2017, 06:15 PM   #717
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There's alot of maths that aren't explained here but in the end one the biggest issues with that "OHS**T" situation is temperatures and that's really the only place for improvement with an oem set up.
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Old 06-05-2017, 11:00 AM   #718
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CompassMotorsports View Post
There's alot of maths that aren't explained here but in the end one the biggest issues with that "OHS**T" situation is temperatures and that's really the only place for improvement with an oem set up.
That's actually incorrect. And don't worry, I'm not a very big fan of the maths, so we'll skip over that.

While heat will certainly build up very rapidly in an OHS**T situation, most of these situations will arise very suddenly and singularly, and the moment will usually pass just as quickly as it started. That means your brakes are in a thermally static state (I.E. not heatsoaked from lots of hard braking beforehand), and there won't be enough time to build up more heat than the components can shed in those few short moments.
Simply put, fade is caused by prolonged use of brakes, causing excessive residual heat that is harder to dissipate, and this is what reduces performance. A brief and one-time panic stop situation, no matter how dramatic, is usually not enough to cause the kind of absorbed heat that will cause fade.

So no, if you want the best improvement to OEM setup for a panic stop situation, you need grippier tires that won't lock up as easily.

Last edited by flat4banger; 07-27-2017 at 09:38 AM.
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Old 06-05-2017, 11:49 AM   #719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CompassMotorsports View Post
one the biggest issues with that "OHS**T" situation is temperatures
And if you've ever nailed the brakes with a set of cold "ultra high performance" track pads, it is indeed an OHSH**T moment, because they don't work anywhere near as well as OE pads do when they're cold.
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Old 07-26-2017, 06:40 PM   #720
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Here's a question regarding this topic, I upgraded my tires immediately (used car came with snow tires on the factory rims ) to BF Goodrich G-force Pro Comp-2 tyres particularly good in wet conditions (living on the Pacific North West coast) But I feel that the stock brakes are fairly mushy. I'm wondering how one could change the brake peddle position where it starts to grab? Since nearly all my driving is canyon driving (just not full tilt,) should I upgrade the brake pads to something a little more aggressive and maybe the fluid and brake lines but keep the rest stock? Planning on going cobb stage 2 next year and would like to ensure that I'm not going to be feeling more brake fade. I haven't been able to completely lock up my wheels and slide so I'm not sure if that's the tires gripping or abs or I'm just not pushing down hard enough.

Last edited by Yourstruly83; 07-26-2017 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 07-27-2017, 12:27 AM   #721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yourstruly83 View Post
Here's a question regarding this topic, I upgraded my tires immediately (used car came with snow tires on the factory rims ) to BF Goodrich G-force Pro Comp-2 tyres particularly good in wet conditions (living on the Pacific North West coast) But I feel that the stock brakes are fairly mushy. I'm wondering how one could change the brake peddle position where it starts to grab? Since nearly all my driving is canyon driving (just not full tilt,) should I upgrade the brake pads to something a little more aggressive and maybe the fluid and brake lines but keep the rest stock? Planning on going cobb stage 2 next year and would like to ensure that I'm not going to be feeling more brake fade. I haven't been able to completely lock up my wheels and slide so I'm not sure if that's the tires gripping or abs or I'm just not pushing down hard enough.
Get new uprated brake pads- Not sure exactly what but there should be a thread on brake pads. Also different pads for different uses. Replace the brake fluid with standard new fluid. SS brake lines might help with the feel.
What you probably are wanting is pads with a better initial bite.

Theres a lot of information on here, I got to page 22 before giving up and skipping to the last page.
I would say that you want a pad and fluid that will help with brake fade as that will be you major issue with hill driving.
I know of a few roads that I drive where if your pads aren't up to it you will definitely get brake fade, thrust me I know this form friends and personal experience (and this is all in the legal driving speeds)
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:59 AM   #722
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yourstruly83 View Post
... But I feel that the stock brakes are fairly mushy. I'm wondering how one could change the brake peddle position where it starts to grab?. Since nearly all my driving is canyon driving (just not full tilt,) should I upgrade the brake pads to something a little more aggressive and maybe the fluid and brake lines but keep the rest stock? Planning on going cobb stage 2 next year and would like to ensure that I'm not going to be feeling more brake fade. I haven't been able to completely lock up my wheels and slide so I'm not sure if that's the tires gripping or abs or I'm just not pushing down hard enough.
If the brakes are feeling mushy, from the way you describe it, what you are typically feeing is slop in the brake system. This can come form a couple of things:
- Old fluid. Time for a fluid change. An inexpensive upgrade in brake fluid is Valvoline DOT3/DOT4 synthetic.
- Air in the brake system. Time for the brake system to be bled. Air can get into the system if the brakes were improperly bled in the past. This would be a good time to replace the old brake fluid.
- Worn brake lines. Brake lines are typically rubber and they wear out over time, resulting in the brake hose becoming more flexible when applying pressure from the brake pedal.
- Flex at the brake master cylinder. There are several brake master cylinder braces available.

Based on your driving, sounds like you could/should upgrade to better pads. Have no idea what you are using for brake pads now, so hard to recommend anything without something to compare to. Lots of options depending on what you really like/want to do. Everyone has their opinions on brake pads as to which is best.

You don't want anything with too much initial bite, because it can easily get you into more trouble than you can handle. Remember you are talking canyon driving.

Suggest you call up KNS Brakes and talk to them. Tell them what you what to do and what you are expecting. Then buy from them what they suggest. They will not steer you wrong.
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Old 07-27-2017, 09:13 AM   #723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yourstruly83 View Post
Here's a question regarding this topic, I upgraded my tires immediately (used car came with snow tires on the factory rims ) to BF Goodrich G-force Pro Comp-2 tyres particularly good in wet conditions (living on the Pacific North West coast) But I feel that the stock brakes are fairly mushy. I'm wondering how one could change the brake peddle position where it starts to grab? Since nearly all my driving is canyon driving (just not full tilt,) should I upgrade the brake pads to something a little more aggressive and maybe the fluid and brake lines but keep the rest stock? Planning on going cobb stage 2 next year and would like to ensure that I'm not going to be feeling more brake fade. I haven't been able to completely lock up my wheels and slide so I'm not sure if that's the tires gripping or abs or I'm just not pushing down hard enough.
I felt new pads helped with 'bite'... with is related to the travel distance in a way. The other mod that greatly helped with the mushiness was a master cylinder brace. I chose this because it was easier and cheaper to install than lines. Generally the same effect, but upgrading the lines will have an even greater effect when paired with it.

You can't really change the length of travel, but there's a lot you can do to improve the feel. Anytime I drive my dad's stock 2004 Forester, the brake petal feels totally like mush.
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Old 10-01-2017, 05:53 PM   #724
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Great write up. Very informative.
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Old 10-07-2017, 07:00 PM   #725
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Its not so much the speed its more the heat. Heat is what needs to be controlled with the proper selection of pads and rotors for the situation. Racing needs racing brakes but they will suck on normal driving and vs versa.
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