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Old 04-12-2004, 02:58 PM   #1
2003Baja
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Default MTX or kicker? Which is better

MTX Superwoofer 15 inch or a 15 inch kicker? My friend says I made a bad choice buying the MTX and should have went with a kicker. What do you think?
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Old 04-12-2004, 03:08 PM   #2
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Which MTX sub? vs wich Kicker sub?

I prefer most of Kickers line over MTX's but both have their turds and gems.
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Old 04-12-2004, 03:26 PM   #3
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True ... what model numbers?
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Old 04-15-2004, 05:25 PM   #4
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this is the MTX sub http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAu...roductID=13322

This is the Kicker sub http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAu...roductID=11928

Need help Quick!!!! Buying real soon!
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Old 04-15-2004, 05:28 PM   #5
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Hmm I think the L7s (or maybe even the SoloX) would be a better match up against MTX's top of the line, not the L5s you have listed. However I haven't played with a 9500 series yet.

If you can afford the MTX and can afford an amp to properly drive it, then I'd lean towards that.
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Old 04-15-2004, 07:26 PM   #6
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A friend of mine had two kicker L5 subwoofers with a Crossfire 1000 watts class D amplifier in his 2.5 RS and it was very loud. For the price of the MTX Ill say I would buy two kicker subs and still have some cash. If you want a real loud system I surely recommend a VR1202 Crossfire amp with these two.
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Old 04-15-2004, 10:08 PM   #7
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The setup I am leaning for is a rockford 1,500 watt mono amp with the MTX sub.
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Old 04-16-2004, 09:21 AM   #8
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i've been told by a local JL audio/kicker/nakamichi/soudstream dealer that the kicker L5 have a weak point, the wires that go thru the spider tend to broke after a while and are very difficult to repair. comparing the L7 and the 9500 togheter, using WinISD, here's what I learn. the L7 is much more efficient. it need a 2 cu.ft box to sound good in an impreza, at least 1.75 with polyfill. It is a good match with your amp, it minimal continuous power handling is 1350w rms in a 2.0 cuft enclosure, around resonant frequency, so you should not over-excursion it too often.

the 9500 is another game. it need a 1.6 cuft sealed enclosure to sound good in a impreza, and have about the same response, compared to is reference effiency, than the L7. the 9500 can handle much more power without distortion than the L7, however it won't get louder. this make me think it can be built with a less efficient voice coil that have a better control over the cone movement, for sound quality. so it need twice the power to be as loud as the L7.

So maybe the L7 can't handle without risk all the power of your amp, as the 9500 can, but it is so more efficient that you won't need to push it that much in reality. even if you exceed linear xmax, you should not exceed mechanical xmax with 3000W.
my vote go to the kicker L7
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Old 04-16-2004, 10:56 AM   #9
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Only thing is he didn't list the L7, he listed the L5.
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Old 04-16-2004, 05:43 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by NicEJ25
i've been told by a local JL audio/kicker/nakamichi/soudstream dealer that the kicker L5 have a weak point, the wires that go thru the spider tend to broke after a while and are very difficult to repair. comparing the L7 and the 9500 togheter, using WinISD, here's what I learn. the L7 is much more efficient. it need a 2 cu.ft box to sound good in an impreza, at least 1.75 with polyfill. It is a good match with your amp, it minimal continuous power handling is 1350w rms in a 2.0 cuft enclosure, around resonant frequency, so you should not over-excursion it too often.

the 9500 is another game. it need a 1.6 cuft sealed enclosure to sound good in a impreza, and have about the same response, compared to is reference effiency, than the L7. the 9500 can handle much more power without distortion than the L7, however it won't get louder. this make me think it can be built with a less efficient voice coil that have a better control over the cone movement, for sound quality. so it need twice the power to be as loud as the L7.

So maybe the L7 can't handle without risk all the power of your amp, as the 9500 can, but it is so more efficient that you won't need to push it that much in reality. even if you exceed linear xmax, you should not exceed mechanical xmax with 3000W.
my vote go to the kicker L7
As far as efficientcy in power, the L7 is going to demand the power just the same as the MTX, otherwise it will sound like crap. When it comes down to it, the L7 doesn't have as good SQ as the MTX. On a db point of view, the L7...might...squeeze out a couple more than the MTX, but this all depends on how the enclosure is set up. The extra couple db's aren't work the SQ you will be losing.

My .02.......Don't get a 15, get the 12 MTX and you'll be just as happy. That is comparing the MTX to a Kicker L7. The L5 isn't even in its league, and like it was said b4, it has a problem with the wiring. If you already have the 15" MTX get ready to get ear plugs
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Old 04-16-2004, 11:20 PM   #11
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well I ordered my 15 inch 50 lb MTX 9500 series. I did take a look at the L7's, but I like the way the MTX's are built and designed.
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Old 04-17-2004, 12:15 PM   #12
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They are built better than the L7's IMHO. Have fun with your MTX
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Old 04-17-2004, 09:19 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by NicEJ25




even if you exceed linear xmax, you should not exceed mechanical xmax with 3000W.
my vote go to the kicker L7
what's mechanical xmax?

anyways, 3kw is enough to reach maximum excursion with almost any sub out there.
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Old 04-18-2004, 09:48 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by GSteg
what's mechanical xmax?

anyways, 3kw is enough to reach maximum excursion with almost any sub out there.

Xmax, is generaly talking, the farther the voice-coil can move the cone in a linear way. so 100w will move the cone 2 times farther than 50w for example, this is also where the sound is clean (or free of distortion as it can be). exceeding this point, you can't really tell how it will sound. pushing 2 times more power won't result in 2 times longer movement, so if it's true for total spl, it is true for partial too, and this induce distortion.

mechanical Xmax is the farther the cone can move without instanly broking something. well that's what i think after a few reading here and there. pass that, you can broke the cone, the suspension, the spider, etc


while 3KW is enough to reach maximum excursion with almost any sub out there, it is not for the MTX 9500 in a decent sized box. but you can over excursion about any sub with 100 watt if you put it in a enclosure build with sub destruction in mind. what some plans ?
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Old 04-18-2004, 12:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by NicEJ25


mechanical Xmax is the farther the cone can move without instanly broking something. well that's what i think after a few reading here and there. pass that, you can broke the cone, the suspension, the spider, etc
I think the word you're looking for is Xmech. Actually, mechanical xmax can be said to be just xmax. In xmax range, you're moving it in a mechanical fashion anyways, so what the hey

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while 3KW is enough to reach maximum excursion with almost any sub out there, it is not for the MTX 9500 in a decent sized box.
What do you consider a decently sized box? Remember, you can easily reach full excursion with 3kw at a certain freq. 100hz? probably not. 20hz? Yes you can.

Btw, My friend has an MTX 9500 with a strapped DEI 1100d hooked up to it. I'll try to video record it playing test tones at about say 20hz. definitely reaches full excursion
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Old 04-18-2004, 04:49 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by GSteg
I think the word you're looking for is Xmech. Actually, mechanical xmax can be said to be just xmax. In xmax range, you're moving it in a mechanical fashion anyways, so what the hey



What do you consider a decently sized box? Remember, you can easily reach full excursion with 3kw at a certain freq. 100hz? probably not. 20hz? Yes you can.

Btw, My friend has an MTX 9500 with a strapped DEI 1100d hooked up to it. I'll try to video record it playing test tones at about say 20hz. definitely reaches full excursion


I was definatly meaning Xmech, and I was considering what while playing music it was not so risky to blow a L7 with 3000W, and it was definately not risky with a 9500. this sub, even in a 4 cu.ft enclosure, wich i consider way too large for accurate bass, will need 2000W to reach Xmax (according to mtx spec, and winISD graph) playing 20 hz test tones. then we are far for Xmech, decently sized enclosure for this sub, for SQ and accurateness would be 1.75 cuft. then it will handle 4000W at any frequency, beside maybe the resonant one. The more i'm looking at this sub, the more i'm sold, because if the efficieny loss is for gained SQ, you sure can play this thing cleanny at crazy loud level.
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Old 04-19-2004, 08:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by NicEJ25 so 100w will move the cone 2 times farther than 50w for example, this is also where the sound is clean (or free of distortion as it can be). exceeding this point, you can't really tell how it will sound.
Quote:
pushing 2 times more power won't result in 2 times longer movement, so if it's true for total spl, it is true for partial too, and this induce distortion.
This is where i'm confused. You contradicted yourself saying 100w will move the cone 2x further than 50w will, yet later you concluded that pushing 2x more power won't result in 2x more excursion.

Excursion is proportional to the input voltage. To double the excursion, the input voltage must be increased by double, which also means you'll need quadruple the power.

Give a subwoofer 100w and it moves 0.5 inch. To get it moving a full 1", you'll need 400w.

Quote:
exceeding this point, you can't really tell how it will sound.
You can definitely tell how the subwoofer will sound. After exceeding the xmax, it doesn't necessary mean the woofer will have a complete sudden change of sound. You inherit more distortion, but that's really the only thing that happens. Try an idmax in an IB install playing full excursion. definitely still sounds pretty darn good, like at lower volume.


Quote:
I was considering what while playing music it was not so risky to blow a L7 with 3000W, and it was definately not risky with a 9500.
I fully agree. the L7's coil is so damn puny I can fit in 2 L7 coils into a single MTX 9512 coil if i tried. heh.

Quote:
will need 2000W to reach Xmax (according to mtx spec, and winISD graph) playing 20 hz test tones. then we are far for Xmech, decently sized enclosure for this sub, for SQ and accurateness would be 1.75 cuft. then it will handle 4000W at any frequency, beside maybe the resonant one.
The downfall (could be a good thing for many though), is that WinISD is free. . It assumes the world is perfect and that that everything is proportional It assumes you have no power compression. It assumes BL stays constant, It assumes the CMS is constant through out the subwoofer's cone stroke. It assumes everything is constant. Which in reality is not perfect. If you look at the dumax graph and power compression test, you'll see it widely differs from what WinISD assumes. For the design of the MTX sub, the BL does not stay constant. Once the cone starts moving, you lose BL. Take a look at the KMS curve. From a VERY reputable source, the MTX 9500-series does not really have a good suspension design. After a certain point of excursion, the suspension actually gets less stiffer, oppose to the majority out there that will get stiffer. Thats another reason why the MTX would be able to reach full excursion with less than 3kw.

BTW, 3000w at 4ohm from say a modded US Amp 2000x is just a hair short of 110 volts. That's enough to push the MTX, or almost any other sub for a matter of fact, to full excursion.

The MTX sub is not a bad sub at all, no doubt, but what happens when the coil is off centered after X amount of excursion? Hint hint: IMD




cliffnote-can't really tell how a sub will perform with power unless you know how it performs Reason why I don't use WinISD anymore.
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Old 04-20-2004, 08:58 AM   #18
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Thank you Gsteg to make me realize cone movement was peopoetional to input voltage, and not wattage, i did not pay enough attention, and I was wrong. the reason why i contradicted myself, is that, whitting Xmax, the cone will move 2 times farther with 2 times more voltage, but over this, there's come a point where the voice coil can't have total effect on the former, and then the move is no more linear. so twice voltage may mean 1.95 time the move, wich is a sort of distortion. then we should debate if it is audible or not.

I know that WinISD is not perfect, because it use thiele small parameters, wich are based on 1W mesurement, and assume the value are constant. For this reason, it can't be perfect. I've been told the same thing by the high end car audi shop owner when my friend was looking for a sub. But, there's a new way to mesure loudspeakers "caracteristic" that will be more accurate to predict how a woofer will act will 100 or 1000W, not only 1. until then, winISD and other similar software, are the only way to do some sort of enclosure design. maybe it's only 80% accurate, but it's still better than buying a pre-fab enclosure, or buiding a box similar to his friend, because it sound so well in his civic or suburban, so it will in my subaru.
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Old 04-20-2004, 07:58 PM   #19
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I'd take a Tempest over that junk anyday. Or even a Tumult
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Old 04-20-2004, 08:40 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by NicEJ25
whitting Xmax, the cone will move 2 times farther with 2 times more voltage, but over this, there's come a point where the voice coil can't have total effect on the former, and then the move is no more linear. so twice voltage may mean 1.95 time the move, wich is a sort of distortion. then we should debate if it is audible or not.


The voice coil doesn't have affect on former, because the former is part of the voice coil. Think of the former as the foundation for the coil. The wire is wrapped around the former to create a voice coil. It's not so much that the motor isn't linear because it's out of its xmax, its more of because its only at ~70% of its rest BL value. From there on out, BL value is lost; generally speaking on traditional designed woofers.

Quote:
until then, winISD and other similar software, are the only way to do some sort of enclosure design. maybe it's only 80% accurate, but it's still better than buying a pre-fab enclosure, or buiding a box similar to his friend, because it sound so well in his civic or suburban, so it will in my subaru.
you're right in the fact that the WinISD base it's calcuation off of 1w, but 1w is only about 0.1% of 1000w, so can WinISD only be 0.1% accurate? Account that WinISD assumes it an anehoic enviroment, so it's completely opposite in a car, so maybe it's less than 0.1% accurate? Then take in that the parameters we entered in WinISD are a fixed values, and once the speaker cone moves (on a typical subwoofer), parameters alter greatly. So it must be less than that of less than 0.1% accurate. . my math isn't the best. heh.

Making a box reference to WinISD is just as bad (maybe not bad, but probably useless) as getting the same box as a friend's. Frequency response is dependent on the environment. WinISD assumes we're in anehoic state so maybe it'll work if we're out in the open fields with only 1 watt. heh. Best way to plot points to make a box is to actually measure the car's frequency response and analyze the woofer to see how it'll behave in such conditions.



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Old 04-21-2004, 09:22 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by GSteg
Making a box reference to WinISD is just as bad (maybe not bad, but probably useless) as getting the same box as a friend's. Frequency response is dependent on the environment. WinISD assumes we're in anehoic state so maybe it'll work if we're out in the open fields with only 1 watt. heh. Best way to plot points to make a box is to actually measure the car's frequency response and analyze the woofer to see how it'll behave in such conditions.

Mesuring car's frequency response is determining is cabin gain? so it has been done many times and the graph are easily available, or used too. on the polk/momo site, there was a bunch of subwoofer system that were both mesured in a anehoic chamber, as well as in a WRX. I averaged the difference of response of about ten system, and determined cabin gain this way. So i know the slope a woofer response fust follow to have a flat in-car response. I had a 1.5 cuft home enclosure made of 1" mdf, pretty rigid, and i put my 10" type S in it. I plotted the response on WinISD. then i put it in my car, and mesured the ouput with about 100W of output, Using my spl meter and test tones. from 20 to 80 hz I got the predicted response plus or minus 1db. If that's 0.1% accurate, then it's enough for me. You can't build an enclosure thant won't need EQ for sound quality competition. but for a street setup, only wanting the most natural sound you can get, win isd is no bull**** if you know how to use it. builing a anehoic maximaly flat response box for a car today is just plain stupid because there so much information available that teach you to care vehicle transfer function. once you do, there's no reason not to get your first enclosure sound OK
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Old 04-21-2004, 10:43 AM   #22
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Take a DD9512 with dual spiders and a JL audio 12w7 and plot it so that the transfer magnitude graph is the same. Then throw the subs in the car and remeasure the response.

You'll notice the DD will get a lot peakier than the 12w7, despite the graph on WinISD, because of the rediculous parabolic BL curve.
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