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10-19-2020, 03:25 PM | #26 | |
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10-19-2020, 04:52 PM | #27 | |
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10-19-2020, 06:41 PM | #28 | |
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IOW, just because a DSG is neither a conventional torque converter/planetary gear automatic nor a CVT does not exclude it from the 'automatic' category. The operative characteristic is that a DSG/PDK/whatever includes shift logic all its own (whether you choose to use it or not). On this logic concept . . . older automatic transmissions employed hydraulic logic rather than electronic logic. This isn't intended as flame toward DSGs, it's just a matter of characterizing them by the one feature that distinguishes as automated transmission from a manually-controlled-only transmission. It's probably best if we avoid associating any of today's automatics with terms like 'slushbox', even though that was perhaps an accurate description for some of yesteryear's automatics. Norm |
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10-19-2020, 07:26 PM | #29 | ||
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FWIW, the WRX/STi is, according to a recent survey on MT take rates, the model with the highest MT percentage in the industry (~88%). It's the other Subaru models with CVT that brings the CVT numbers up. Even the Legacy eventually flipped over to CVT-only, after being a MT holdout at least through 2010, and I think conventional automatic only for a short while after that. Quote:
Going from MT to conventional AT may be the big step here; it's a smaller step from there to the amorphous ratio choosing of a CVT. So if you start your driving life predisposed toward automatics rather than conventional MTs, you're already over the big hurdle. Norm Last edited by Norm Peterson; 10-19-2020 at 07:32 PM. |
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10-21-2020, 11:31 AM | #30 | |
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Call it what it is; an AMT, not an AT. In my industry, we have to make this distinction between traditional MTs, traditional ATs, and MTs that shift on their own. |
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10-21-2020, 12:07 PM | #31 | |
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I get that there may still be a little stigma as far as the term 'automatic transmission' is concerned. But the mere fact that these AMTs can fully operate as ATs still makes them automatics in actual automated usage, where the name officially given to it is completely irrelevant. The use of semantics to argue that an AMT isn't at its logical heart an AT here means no more than whether or not your WRX / STi displays all of its OE badging. The way it works is what matters. Norm |
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10-21-2020, 01:35 PM | #32 |
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I surprised at how many people like the CVT here. I have been in and out of loaners for a few months now and I have found all of them to be clunky, especially when maintaining a low speed (25mph). I work on a military base where its mostly 25 everywhere so I may notice it more than others. The first 2 loaners (2019 Ascent, 2020 Forester) were the worst. Now I am in a 2020 Crosstrek, which feels the best. The steering feels more engaging than the others and I notice almost no clunking at low speed.
I was also quite surprised to see the Crosstrek has a 2.5l DI engine. Maybe they are just calling the FA24 a 2.5l on the window sticker? ^ EDIT: its a FB25. Shows how little I know about Subaru NA motors. Last edited by Zak6182; 10-21-2020 at 02:10 PM. Reason: I is unedumacated |
10-29-2020, 10:26 AM | #33 |
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My 2 cents:
Overall I hate CVTs, at least the way Subaru tunes them. I've owned a 2012 Impreza, 2016 Legacy and test driven the newest Crosstrek Sport with the CVT. I would go as far as to say that I'll never buy another CVT Subaru ever again. That being said, I didn't mind the way the CVT functioned on my '12 Impreza, where it acted like a true CVT without the fake gear shifting. The tune on my 12 was garbage, it was under powered, but it had potential. I'm now at the point with my Legacy where I'm having issues with either the torque converter or CVT, and I have to sell it before the extended warranty expires at 100k. |
10-29-2020, 11:13 AM | #34 |
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I doubt that any other mfr's CVT calibration is likely to be much different. It's still going to 'motorboat' under acceleration, and a fair amount of a powerful engine's potential will be torque-managed away in the lower ratios.
Norm |
10-29-2020, 02:06 PM | #35 | |
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I had a tune on my ‘12 Impreza that actually made it drive a lot better. Only limiting factor was the measly 148hp. If it had the 2.5 the Legacy and Forester had it would have been a good car |
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10-29-2020, 05:52 PM | #36 |
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My '14 Corolla's CVT was far better than my '11 Legacy CVT was. In fact, my commuter special '00 Civic HX with M4VA CVT was better than both - CVTEC kicked in y0! After I dropped it to the ground, it truly was a motorboat.
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11-01-2020, 02:30 AM | #37 |
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I don't like them because they are non serviceable. Anything that fails internally you have to replace the whole unit
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11-01-2020, 03:39 AM | #38 |
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Automated manual transmissions work differently than automatic transmissions. Automatics have torque converters while automated manuals have pressure plates and clutch discs, as stated.
I believe the AMT's still require driver input to shift, it's just not a physical linkage but instead a paddle/button/lever input to tell the computer to shift the trans. Anyway, it has nothing to do with stigma. Might as well say there's no difference between a WRX and an STI besides the badging. They're both just cars with flat motors, right? |
11-01-2020, 04:09 AM | #39 | |
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11-01-2020, 09:04 AM | #40 | ||
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Automatic transmission cars back then just sort of moseyed off the line when you stepped on the gas - which was fine if you were a doctor or a lawyer and were only interested in luxurious transportation, but which flat-out sucked if you were a performance driving enthusiast. At least for those of us who were there back then (and for some of the older members of the generation following ours), those associations stuck even as automatic transmissions gradually got better. Maybe you're better off for seeing automatic transmissions in a far more favorable light, maybe you're not. Norm |
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11-01-2020, 02:43 PM | #41 |
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You're correct I've never driven those older automatics, I believe what you say about them. I assumed you meant the stigma of autos in general vs manuals, not older autos vs newer. I generally don't view automatics in a favorable light(did you mean compared to your view? We're probably pretty close!), I will always rather drive a standard. There are exceptions; I drove an older BMW 530 auto, and actually liked it. I'd still prefer the manual version though.
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11-01-2020, 08:39 PM | #42 |
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Its funny how these threads always lead to autos are for grannies and stick makes you some kind of man or gangsta as someone said. I dont know your age but many grandmas grew up driving stick before you were born. Must of been a lot of gangsta grandmas.
To me MT vs AT is just what the car is used for. For me a DD is AT, plus I need others to drive my car sometimes and many people cant drive MT well. I get it MT is more engaging, but going to Home Depot or work I dont need to be a gangsta. |
11-01-2020, 09:09 PM | #43 |
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My wife's Forester XT drives fine with the CVT. I certainly don't mind driving it, but I'm not trying to drive it like a sports car either.
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11-02-2020, 09:45 AM | #44 | ||
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Intellectually I do understand that they've gotten quite good. But they're still a poor fit for me individually. And FWIW, there's at least one respect in which today's ATs have devolved from some of the early ones. The older Chrysler Torqueflite and Powerflite transmissions could be push/pop-started if the battery was too weak to start the engine on its starter. I think you could do the same with some of the early Ford ATs as well. Quote:
Norm |
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11-02-2020, 10:03 AM | #45 |
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It's not even that specific; MT or AT is simply the way any particular car works.
Personally, if I'm going to be spending 5-digit money on a car, it's got to be something that I'm going to actively enjoy driving. That includes commuting (well, it did back when I had a such a thing), grocery-getting, parts-chasing, you name it. There's no need to merely endure those little trips. Just so you know, my wife still prefers to drive stick (she's retired, too). Our daughter can and has in the past, and one of the granddaughters owns a MT car. Norm |
11-03-2020, 05:49 PM | #46 |
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Norm, what it comes down to is this:
There is no longer just AT/MT (colloquially known to have torque converters vs. clutch/syncros). Times have changed and so must our vocabulary when it comes to transmissions. We still have clutch-actuated, synchronized-gear fully manual transmissions. We still have hydraulically-operated, fully-automatic transmissions. But we also have clutch-actuated, synchronized-gear fully automated transmissions that can still be manually shifted like a traditional, hydraulically-operated, fully-automatic transmission. The time has come, in this industry, to make the distinction between MTs, ATs, and AMTs, without regard to their ability to self shift. (As a sidenote, how would you categorize Hyundai/KIA's new auto-clutched/manually-shifted "manual transmission?" The car controls the clutch actuation, but the driver is still relied upon to shift the gears.) |
11-03-2020, 08:05 PM | #47 |
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No, there's no need to re-invent this wheel . . . err, terminology. Either a transmission has the capability to shift for itself (is automated) or it doesn't (manual). It's that simple.
I really don't care if you want to make further distinctions among the various transmissions that do have self-shifting capability as long as you accept the fact that they're all basically automatics. Differences in detail, not type. I just don't understand any reluctance to categorizing AMTs or DSGs as automatics, especially given the widespread acceptance of automatics generally. That Kia device isn't anything new. It appears to be at least functionally similar to Porsche's 'Sportomatic' transmission (ca. 1967). I'll take your word for it that gear selection is completely up to the driver, which puts it (and the Sportomatic) in the manual transmission category. Also in the MT category are dog-shifted gearboxes where you really only need to use the clutch pedal to get the vehicle rolling (Jerico in the circle track world, Eaton for the 18-wheeler gang). Norm |
11-04-2020, 12:20 PM | #48 | |
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I think it's likely people who don't want to feel "sitgmatized" for driving an auto... Hey, I don't drive an automatic. I drive a DSG! |
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11-04-2020, 05:35 PM | #49 |
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I remembered a friend who had an Eclipse. When I asked him if it's an automatic or stick. He said "Tiptronic". I said "oh, automatic".
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11-04-2020, 06:29 PM | #50 |
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As long as Subaru continues to be dedicated to the CVT transmission, I will probably not be purchasing any automatic Subaru vehicles. Our last purchase was a 2017 RAV4 (non-hybrid), because I just couldn't commit to the CVT in the Subaru alternatives. Its not just Subaru for me, any manufacturer with a CVT as their sole automatic option, I just won't consider it.
I was reluctant to look into the hybrid version of the RAV4 due to its CVT although the performance is better than the standard model and I am sure the electric motor assists enough from a stop to make up for the CVT...I kind of regret it...but its time again to purchase another vehicle and as much as I like the Outback...the CVT is almost haunting the brand. Nissan and Subaru have had complaints with their CVT units over the years and I'd much rather have a traditional automatic with more gears. We have an 04 RAV4 with over 316k miles, although it has its share of oil leaks and creaks...it runs strong and just won't die (although it probably will now, since I said that.)...we will probably be going back to Toyota again and its not exactly my first preference, but I bring up this vehicle because it makes it easier to go back. Even Toyota saw a need to couple a traditional first gear with their CVT in the Corolla...the performance impact from a stop is clear to Toyota, that's why they did it...I also have concerns about reliability but I understand all manufacturers can have a component fail prematurely for various reasons...even so...the CVT premature failures and problems involving various brands especially with vehicles being used for towing also seems to be a clear longevity issue. |
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