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Old 07-24-2018, 01:01 PM   #2526
kellygnsd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXREALTOR View Post
My ID 1050s are at 80+ percent with a 55 base pressure. My pump runs out of juice and throws me lean on spool up.... This is on pump.

Kinda funny to adjust the ve table for more. Fuel and have the result be a mega rich dip at spool onset and a bit less lean spike at pt. In a round about way I just figured out how to manipulate the built in rich dip on spool.
Are you still using the stock fuel pump controller? If only lean on spool-up it may be due to the pump speed switchover points. I wrote about the issue in the past and have seen it in many datalogs
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Old 07-24-2018, 01:03 PM   #2527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXREALTOR View Post
My ID 1050s are at 80+ percent with a 55 base pressure. My pump runs out of juice and throws me lean on spool up.... This is on pump.
Explain your thought process on this...
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Old 07-24-2018, 01:28 PM   #2528
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PDX have you upgraded the wires to your fuel pump?
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Old 07-24-2018, 02:08 PM   #2529
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Explain your thought process on this...
My thoughts are based partly on graphs of logs. I will post them. I got high 12s when commanding 11.1, thought it was a ve table adjustment due to new turbo/up/dp. Made the tweaks , now I dip to low 10s on spool then up to 11.5-7 when commanding 11.1. As rpms, idc, and flow goes up, fuel pressure goes down and commanded fuel and WBO2 fuel align. I'm lean between 4 and 5k rpms. I'm seeing max boost at approximately 4200 rpms on a 4th gear pull starting at 2500 so, I guess you could say at and just after spool.

My thought is the fuel pressure gets hit with the initial boost spike and at almost 90 psi runs out of pumping power.

My innovate gauge, psb-1, has a 4 bar map sensor and it is spiking to 33-34 psi at onset of boost. I wish the line off the manifold provided the same pressure readings as the map sensor on the throttle body.

Last edited by PDXREALTOR; 07-24-2018 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 07-24-2018, 02:10 PM   #2530
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PDX have you upgraded the wires to your fuel pump?
Yes, hardwired off the battery.
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Old 07-24-2018, 02:12 PM   #2531
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Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
Are you still using the stock fuel pump controller? If only lean on spool-up it may be due to the pump speed switchover points. I wrote about the issue in the past and have seen it in many datalogs
Yes, I am on the stock controller, and I've left duty cycles alone.

Do you have a link to what you wrote?

I'm mobile right now otherwise I'd post detailed graphs....
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Old 07-24-2018, 02:19 PM   #2532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXREALTOR View Post
My thoughts are based partly on graphs of logs. I will post them. I got high 12s when commanding 11.1, thought it was a ve table adjustment due to new turbo/up/dp. Made the tweaks , now I dip to low 10s on spool then up to 11.5-7 when commanding 11.1. As rpms, idc, and flow goes up, fuel pressure goes down and commanded fuel and WBO2 fuel align. I'm lean between 4 and 5k rpms. I'm seeing max boost at approximately 4200 rpms on a 4th gear pull starting at 2500 so, I guess you could say at and just after spool.

My thought is the fuel pressure gets hit with the initial boost spike and at almost 90 psi runs out of pumping power.

My innovate gauge, psb-1, has a 4 bar map sensor and it is spiking to 33-34 psi at onset of boost. I wish the line off the manifold provided the same pressure readings as the map sensor on the throttle body.
Sounds like wall wetting.


If you're already hardwired, set fuel pump duty cycle to 100% for all levels. Before I did this, my relay didn't like the transition back to 33%.
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Old 07-24-2018, 02:42 PM   #2533
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The stock controller goes from 33% speed to 66% speed @ 20% IDC and from 66% speed to 100% speed @ 40% IDC on the stock scheme. If you double or more the size of the injectors can 33% pump speed support twice the flow as before? My logging showed me with my 1150cc injectors I had to change my pump switch-over points to 7% and 20 % or else my differential fuel pressure log would look like a set of steps until the pump finally caught up with the injector.
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Old 07-24-2018, 10:58 PM   #2534
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First graph is a 4th pull before any adjustments to my ve table. It was based on FP green/Invidia catless, KB EWG setup.

Second graph is after using the table generator (which is pretty darn accurate) in megalog viewer to adjust the ve table.

Both calibrations command 11.1 fuel. My base fuel pressure is set to 55 psi, and the calibration, including injectors, are set to the settings based on the 55 psi base pressure. They should be about 1205 cc if the pump can hang.

What do you guys think?



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Old 07-24-2018, 11:27 PM   #2535
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nascar huh?
I can say we didn't use them. Any place one might have thought to use a band clamp got a Wiggin's or any other actual o-ring sealed fitting: port fittings, Wiggins, Jelly fittings, old school J1926/AN o-ring etc...

Only high pressure system I could see bragging about would have been on the coolant or oil system.
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Old 07-25-2018, 12:15 AM   #2536
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The main difference I see log to log is the difference in IAT. 70F in the first log 95 on the second. IAT comps could be your issue. Where you tuned on a hot day?

I thought wall wetting had to do with accelleration enrichment and quick changes in throttle position vs. changes in MAP.
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Old 07-25-2018, 12:57 AM   #2537
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Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
The main difference I see log to log is the difference in IAT. 70F in the first log 95 on the second. IAT comps could be your issue. Where you tuned on a hot day?

I thought wall wetting had to do with accelleration enrichment and quick changes in throttle position vs. changes in MAP.
Im not sure on the wall wetting. I didn't have time to read up on it tonight. I've always thought it was a setting that was there for the ethanol folks.

I did my initial ve map in the 68-86 cell, and my adjusted efr ve map map in the same cell. My iat comps have always seemed to be pretty spot on (Cobb ideal gas law values) and, when not doing a pull(say Wot at 4k) I don't get the initial rich dip followed by lean period, and fueling is pretty spot on in both the different days the logs were take. I have several logs for each day/iat

In any event don't you think something is going on at spool up and into 5k rpms?

Sorry guys.... Should I start a new thread?

I have 1300s in the cart, and, I really think it's the fact I upped the base pressure and the pump is out of steam. So the question is lower the base and up the idc, will be in the mid 90s once cold, or just buy new injectors.
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Old 07-25-2018, 02:16 AM   #2538
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What ECU are you using, and how are you tuning it?

My stock ECU had a rich dip that lasts about a full second after stomping WOT, and I'm pretty sure most stock ECUs of that era had the same problem. Maybe current ones too, I just have no idea.

If you're using the stock ECU and EcuFlash, look for "Tau" tables. If you don't see anything like that, try getting the latest definition XML files from GitHub:

https://github.com/TD-D/SubaruDefs

Also try logging "Final Fueling Base" with RomRaider (not sure what Cobb calls it), and see if that dips rich as well. Mine did, which is what led me to realize that the ECU tuning was part of the problem. I found the tables that were responsible, and when I fixed them in my car, and it ended up cutting the rich dip in half. I keep telling myself that I'll try SD to see if the remaining dip goes away, but I keep not getting around to it. Maybe in an other year or three. Anyway, some other folks found the same tables in a bunch of other ROMs.

I don't think anyone knows for certain that those tables are really for wall-wetting / tau, but nobody has a better explanation. They are very useful for low-RPM stuff, like getting in and out of idle, but the factory tuning sucks for high-RPM / high-load.

http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewt...hp?f=40&t=7442
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Old 07-25-2018, 11:15 AM   #2539
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I'm using oem ecu (2017 sti) and Cobb access port/access tuner race. I'm not concerned about the rich dip I'm concerned about the lean peak that follows it.

In the first graph you can see it's as high as 13 when commanded fuel is 11.1.

In the second graph I added 10 percent to that area of the ve table and, you can see the rich dip gets larger and the lean spike gets smaller.
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Old 07-26-2018, 12:00 AM   #2540
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I suspect that you can tune out the lean spot with the VE table, and then you'll be left with a rich spot that needs to be tuned out via the tau tables. If Cobb doesn't have them, give them the link I posted above, there's a roadmap to them somewhere in that discussion.

The tricky thing about tuning this stuff is that you'll get distorted data immediately after going to WOT and then useful data a second or two later. You could tune the VE table to make your AFR perfect for a pull that starts at 2500 RPM and goes to the rev limit, but then if you stomp WOT at 5000 RPM (after shifting, for example) you'll find a rich dip that wasn't in there in pulls that started at lower RPM.

So for example to tune VE around 3000 you'll want to do pulls that start lower, like 2000 RPM, so that the rich dip comes and goes, and then use the remainder of the log for tuning.

What you don't want to do is tune for a perfect AFR using pulls that start at 3000, and then later on you stomp the throttle at 2500, go rich by 3000, and then hit VE cells at 3300 that were on target when there was a rich dip, but now are lean because the rich dip isn't present.
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Old 07-26-2018, 12:48 AM   #2541
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I suspect that you can tune out the lean spot with the VE table, and then you'll be left with a rich spot that needs to be tuned out via the tau tables. If Cobb doesn't have them, give them the link I posted above, there's a roadmap to them somewhere in that discussion.

The tricky thing about tuning this stuff is that you'll get distorted data immediately after going to WOT and then useful data a second or two later. You could tune the VE table to make your AFR perfect for a pull that starts at 2500 RPM and goes to the rev limit, but then if you stomp WOT at 5000 RPM (after shifting, for example) you'll find a rich dip that wasn't in there in pulls that started at lower RPM.

So for example to tune VE around 3000 you'll want to do pulls that start lower, like 2000 RPM, so that the rich dip comes and goes, and then use the remainder of the log for tuning.

What you don't want to do is tune for a perfect AFR using pulls that start at 3000, and then later on you stomp the throttle at 2500, go rich by 3000, and then hit VE cells at 3300 that were on target when there was a rich dip, but now are lean because the rich dip isn't present.
The main thing I was trying to figure out is, am I maxing out my fuel pump due to the high base pressure, which was set high to get out of the 90+ idc range in cold weather.

If that is the case, my base pressure needs to come down. That leaves me back at 90+ idc on the 1050s at approximately 28psi. That was on fp green, which BTW is flowing almost identical amounts of air.....

The fp green became a fireball at 28 psi, where as this efr is blowing ice so.... I see 30 psi in the future.

Hence the original question what are guys running on pump gas (100 octane+, no ethanol) at high boost levels.

I went ahead and ordered the 1300s about an hour ago. I didn't want to turn down the base pressure and up idc and be on the safe edge now only to run lean when weather gets cool.

The tau tables..... I read parts of that thread a while back. It didn't seem to apply to me or, wasn't helping me understand what I was researching at the time. Though, I do remember it being intriguing. Cobb has an entire wall wetting section in their software. I think it's the same thing.

I've never had issues like you mention at the end of your post. But, thank you because that would indeed seem to be an issue. In my short time I've always just tuned high load fuel from 2500-7000 pulls. I've never noticed any issues but now you've got me thinking I should tune all three high load Wot modes in their respective 'knob positions'..... Though not sure how that would all blend in with the rest of the ve table tuning in mlvhd.

I though the rich dip was dynamic, and induced by the ecu upon immediate high load transition, not rpm....??
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Old 07-26-2018, 01:15 AM   #2542
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Apologies. I'm scattered tonight. You were talking about tuning out MY rich dip, not the ecu rich dip?
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Old 07-26-2018, 03:04 AM   #2543
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I suspect that both of those rich dips might be the same thing.

Yes it is driven by rapid load changes, I'm just saying you can get those load changes, and thus AFR dips, at any RPM (it just depends on what the RPM is when you stomp on the gas pedal) so you have to be careful about tuning around them.

It might be illuminating to plot fuel pressure and boost pressure together, along with commanded AFR and actual AFR, and see if the curves diverge in harmony. If so, that would suggest that you're right about the fuel pump being maxed out (or not switching to higher duty soon enough).
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Old 07-26-2018, 09:20 AM   #2544
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Log wall wetting and compare it to your rich dip.
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Old 07-26-2018, 11:58 AM   #2545
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That's was on the list before dropping back down to 43.5 base, set all pump duty cycle to 100% and see what happens. I'm curious.

A few posts above are graphs of fuel and boost pressures, as well as commanded fuel and actual fuel.

I never had this issue before raising the base pressure, another reason I'm inclined to think it's the pump that can't handle it.

I will also log the wall wetting, there's a lot of choices, which wall wetting data would be best to log?

I mean, in all reality it seems I'm trying to cheat the limits of my pump and injectors so, to put a lot of effort into continuing to cheat things vs just doing it the right way is nothing more than a learning experience.

Last edited by PDXREALTOR; 07-26-2018 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 08-04-2018, 12:35 AM   #2546
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Would there be any interest from the 2.5" inlet guys in a 2.5 to 3" compressor inlet sleeve with tapered /velocity stack style inlet where the turbo intake tub attaches?

I've already tested fitment (and it's good) with oem deleted tgv housings, but, the material I am using I'm not happy with.

The sleeve would slip over the Compressor housing effectively making it a 3" inlet.

Thinking of making a run of ones out of the proper material.
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Old 08-04-2018, 04:04 AM   #2547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXREALTOR View Post
The main thing I was trying to figure out is, am I maxing out my fuel pump due to the high base pressure, which was set high to get out of the 90+ idc range in cold weather.

If that is the case, my base pressure needs to come down. That leaves me back at 90+ idc on the 1050s at approximately 28psi. That was on fp green, which BTW is flowing almost identical amounts of air.....

The fp green became a fireball at 28 psi, where as this efr is blowing ice so.... I see 30 psi in the future.

Hence the original question what are guys running on pump gas (100 octane+, no ethanol) at high boost levels.

I went ahead and ordered the 1300s about an hour ago. I didn't want to turn down the base pressure and up idc and be on the safe edge now only to run lean when weather gets cool.

The tau tables..... I read parts of that thread a while back. It didn't seem to apply to me or, wasn't helping me understand what I was researching at the time. Though, I do remember it being intriguing. Cobb has an entire wall wetting section in their software. I think it's the same thing.

I've never had issues like you mention at the end of your post. But, thank you because that would indeed seem to be an issue. In my short time I've always just tuned high load fuel from 2500-7000 pulls. I've never noticed any issues but now you've got me thinking I should tune all three high load Wot modes in their respective 'knob positions'..... Though not sure how that would all blend in with the rest of the ve table tuning in mlvhd.

I though the rich dip was dynamic, and induced by the ecu upon immediate high load transition, not rpm....??
The thing I have found out about the injector dynamics are they are not have some weird flow rates probably to keep the idle in check, but yeah when I first out them in, I had to resale the whole map cause my airs were all over the place
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Old 08-04-2018, 12:17 PM   #2548
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I ran out of time and am putting in my 1300s in an hour or so.

But, the fuel pressure rising with onset of boost, causing a lean condition that gradually goes away as boost (and therefore fuel pressure) stabilizes points to the pump simply running out of juice.

The dw300 isn't good for much at power at 90 psi. I wish I had time to go run a log with fp comp, fuel pressure differential actual and injector latency as that would confirm my hunch.

It's at the onset of boost I'm getting a boost spike off the manifold pressure tube. It affects both my fuel pressure and aftermarket boost gauge by 5+ psi. I can't figure out how to get rid of it.

Last edited by PDXREALTOR; 08-04-2018 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 08-04-2018, 03:38 PM   #2549
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Isn't the in internal relief in most intank pumps around 80 psi or so. I try not to push my pump to do that because of the bypass and the flow drop-off as pressure goes up. What does the DW put out @ 90 psi anyway? Most charts I've seen stop at 80 psi.

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Old 08-04-2018, 03:53 PM   #2550
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Thought I would post this here. I have a 04 STi with this turbo for sale in the classifieds section.

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2879861
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