Bartender: One Scotty's cocktail please.

[06grayrex]

Boy am I glad to be an Amsoil user for years... People are finally starting to come around that Amsoil is not just some snake oil...

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[Legacy777]

Just to note, for kicks I shook up the jug of gear oil today, and while shaking it around, you can see the globs of oil mixing up, and it did "mix". I kind of expected it to restratify again pretty soon, but it didn't seem to. When I get some time, I'll have to let it sit for a while, take a picture, shake it up, and take pictures at time intervals to see how long it takes to get back to the separate layers.

Josh

[Soul Shinobi]

That's interesting. I didn't expect it to really mix.

[williaty]

As someone who has been violently flamed by Scotty in multiple threads on multiple forums for trying to find a lube that doesn't have the drawbacks the Cocktail does, all I can say to the general awakening here is:

Where the heck were you guys 4 years ago!

I'll be very interested to see if we can get a bunch of Cocktail UOAs sorted out. However, I have a feeling that as soon as people start thinking that maybe the Cocktail isn't safe, you won't be able to find anyone willing to run the Cocktail long enough to give you a UOA.

[Soul Shinobi]

I've started a donation fund for buying and analyzing an unused U.S.'s Cocktail against a used one.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...php?p=22967314

I do need someone who has the cocktail in to drain a sample for me when they next change their fluid, as I detailed in that thread.

[3star2nr]

Originally Posted by njskatchmo

I have about 70k miles on my 02 WRX. I can't get my car into 1st in a roll and Reverse always resists, not to mention a stiff 2nd gear. Am I ready for the Cocktail of:

1qt Redline lightweight shockproof
1qt Pennzoil Synchromesh
2qt Castrol HypoyC 80w-90

Is my tranny too high mileage for this?

How hard is it to replace this yourself? Anyone have directions?

What about the differential fluid any comments?

sounds to me like the bearings in ur tranny and or synchros are dying

Cure, drive it easy aand save for a rebuild.

Reverse typically doesnt have synchros but when the bearings start going bad u will experience the lock out for which you speak

[kike_ej20]

Originally Posted by Soul Shinobi

I've started a donation fund for buying and analyzing an unused U.S.'s Cocktail against a used one.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...php?p=22967314

I do need someone who has the cocktail in to drain a sample for me when they next change their fluid, as I detailed in that thread.

You are the man...

[bluesubie]

Click for Soul Shinobi's uoa that I posted on bitog with comments from a Tribologist.

The EP additives are fine, but the Moly is not needed in a manual transmission fluid, the Calcium is way too high, and it would be helpful to see how much sulfur is produced by this mix.

I suspect the sulfur and moly contributed to high wear for this short a period....

The sulfur could be contributing to Fe corrosion and bearing wear, and the disulfide in the moly disulfide simply adds to the sulfur concentration.

The moly contributes nothing to synchro engagement and actually interferes with the synchro friction modifier.

-Dennis

[Soul Shinobi]

Bluesubie, I am actually considering getting a TAN and sulfur content check done. Ask them if those would be the ideal tests to run, and if there are any others that may be helpful.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/tests_price_list.html

[bluesubie]

Yeah, that was in Molakule's last response.
"A VOA of this mix (with sulfur concentration and TAN stated) would be very interesting. "

-Dennis

[ride5000]

well, i've run on my own blend (mob1 + syncromesh) for 5 years now. yes, before it was known as the US cocktail.

last two changes i went to straight syncromesh. i got tired of blending.

needless to say the box shifts just fine, probably smoother than 70% of the trannies out there. it NEVER grinds.

i guess i got a magic tranny, like clark turner did when he was running 115-120mph passes over and over again with his 02 5mt. what's funny about that box is that he sold it to a kid who broke it in a couple hundred miles.

i guess the nasioc thing to do is blame the lube. reminiscent of all the engine deaths due to mobil 1, right? (yeah, that's the only oil i've ever used too.)

good luck kids.

[Soul Shinobi]

You're running straight syncromesh? I seriously think you're going to toast that tranny hardcore

[jhargis]

Gears 1-5 and R are protected well enough by synchromesh alone, as that's what it was formulated for. But I'd be a bit concerned about the longevity of the front diff with straight synchromesh because that hypoid diff is were the 5mt's gl-5 requirement comes from.

I dunno, whatever. I'm happy with just sticking with a conservative tune on my vf-39 to keep both engine and trans within their operational limits, while running a single gl-5 dino oil and just trying my best to be friendly to my synchros. I'd prefer that my 5mt lasts the remaining life of the car and I'll just live with the fact that it's an old design that is finicky about oil type and doesn't handle abuse well. As far as I can tell, no oil is going to save a transmission from one too many hard shifts. My transmission was built in 1996, and it feels fine, so if people out there are toasting synchros left and right, I have to think that maybe they're shifting a bit more agressively than their 5mt can handle, which is not particularly agressive. Gl-5 non-synth oil, stock clutch, and lots of focus on shifting and operating the clutch smoothely... That will do more for the longevity of both your gears and synchros than any magical snake oil or oil cocktail on the market.

[Soul Shinobi]

If I recall, --screw my memory, I'll just look this up.

Okay:

Originally Posted by DS1 Motorsports

I've been a technician for 15+ years now and have worked for Toyota, Honda, and Subaru and currently own my own Subaru shop for the last 5 years.

I've done Honda's for over 10 years and only run Honda MTF or NEO oil in them including my customer's 610whp 00' Si. The difference between Honda and Subaru is Honda uses coated brass baulk rings, Subaru doesn't. This is where synromesh does it's damage.

The high sulfur content in syncromesh eats brass (simple chemistry). As the brass erodes from the friction surface of the baulk ring, the load surface becomes smaller and smaller and wears faster and faster till finally failure occurs.

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by ride5000

i guess the nasioc thing to do is blame the lube. reminiscent of all the engine deaths due to mobil 1, right? (yeah, that's the only oil i've ever used too.)
good luck kids.

But the big difference between this and spun bearings is that we have a vendor that has re-built trannies that used this stuff pointing out what he has seen, we have a uoa showing high iron wear, and an oil tribologist pointing out deficiencies in the "cocktail". Apples to oranges, IMHO.

-Dennis

[jhargis]

I can't imagine the sulfur content of synchromesh being any worse than any gl-5 gear oil... Synchromesh doesn't smell as strong to me as other gl-5 gear oils do. Synchromesh smells like gear oil, but gl-5 gear oils reak. I spilled like a few ounces of valvoline 75w90 in the grass next to my driveway and even after degreasing the area, it reaked of sulfur for like 2 weeks and gave me a nice bald spot on my lawn.

But then again, that's a purely subjective observation, as I don't know the amount of sulfur in each type of oil... just smells to me like gl-5's tend to have a stronger concentration of sulfur.

As for the Mobil 1 comparison. Well, you have a demographic with inexpensive turbocharged cars with a young owner base that is more mod-happy than most other groups of car owners. Blown engines, spun bearings, and dead synchros should be no surprise... Kinda comes with the territory. Also from the same territory come mythical stories of magic cocktails that make your transmission like new. Whatever... Use a good motor oil and try a few good gear oils to get the shift quality and protection you personally are looking for, keep you mods matched to the limits of the hardware, treat your car with a little care, and chances are that you'll be ok.

[williaty]

Keep in mind that there's a difference between encapsulated and elemental sulfur. Older lubes had sulfur suspended in the mixture in a chemically reactive way. Modern lubes have sulfur encapsulated in compounds that prevent it from being able to chemically react with other metals.

However, it would be interesting if, for instance, the extreme pressure in the hypoid gear was de-encapsulating the sulfur or something...

[UP2MTNS]

Originally Posted by williaty

Keep in mind that there's a difference between encapsulated and elemental sulfur. Older lubes had sulfur suspended in the mixture in a chemically reactive way. Modern lubes have sulfur encapsulated in compounds that prevent it from being able to chemically react with other metals.

However, it would be interesting if, for instance, the extreme pressure in the hypoid gear was de-encapsulating the sulfur or something...

Captain: 'Scotty.....I need more cocktail power!!'

Scotty: 'She's de-encapsulating, captain....she's gonna blow!'

[ride5000]

Originally Posted by Soul Shinobi

You're running straight syncromesh? I seriously think you're going to toast that tranny hardcore

how many trannies have you seen that are literally worn out?

how many synchros have been toasted prematurely?

how many people who have roasted their tranny bearings already had suspended debris from damaged synchros already floating around in the sump?

mick the ginge attributed his last tranny failure to just that. it is not far-fetched when one considers the consequences of bits of metal coming between gear teeth or between journals and bearings.

would any gear lube in the world prevent bearing failure due to debris? is it reasonable to expect them to?

i believe that people tend to think their tranny lube change intervals are fine largely because they don't see the suspended carbon as is typically seen in engine oil: when you drain it, it looks just as golden as the day you filled it up. however, the 5mt does not have a filter and any bits of metal that are not well attached to the tiny fill plug magnet can and will find their way into the mix.

Originally Posted by jhargis

Gears 1-5 and R are protected well enough by synchromesh alone, as that's what it was formulated for. But I'd be a bit concerned about the longevity of the front diff with straight synchromesh because that hypoid diff is were the 5mt's gl-5 requirement comes from.

again, who has ever worn out their front hypoid? ie so much wear that lash could not be adjusted correctly?

That will do more for the longevity of both your gears and synchros than any magical snake oil or oil cocktail on the market.

totally agreed. even the best, most practiced drivers in the world will misshift every once in a while... they get hung up on a shift gate, or their hand slips off the lever, or they de-clutch a little too early, etc. now consider what a first time stick shifter can and will do, and how often they'll do it. that has a huge effect on the amount and size of metallic debris.

Originally Posted by bluesubie

But the big difference between this and spun bearings is that we have a vendor that has re-built trannies that used this stuff pointing out what he has seen, we have a uoa showing high iron wear, and an oil tribologist pointing out deficiencies in the "cocktail". Apples to oranges, IMHO.

-Dennis

well, i don't use the "cocktail," and never did. i used my own blend of synchromesh and mobil1, and then two changes ago i just quit mixing.

iron WEAR doesn't worry me one bit--iron CHUNKS, on the other hand...

the failure of every single trashed mt5 that i've ever seen has been catastrophic in nature. not one of them died a death of old age. do you (or anybody for that matter) have any examples of those?

jm2c
ken

[2slofouru]

Originally Posted by UP2MTNS

Captain: 'Scotty.....I need more cocktail power!!'

Scotty: 'She's de-encapsulating, captain....she's gonna blow!'

LOL X 1000!

[4wdwrx]

Hi, So you guys discovered the cocktail is harmful. I'm have been using it for a 6 months now. is it that bad for the tranny? what should I replace it with?

[williaty]

The Subaru G-O Extra S oil works as well in all respects as the Cocktail (and better in some respects) and is unharmful.

[4wdwrx]

Originally Posted by williaty

The Subaru G-O Extra S oil works as well in all respects as the Cocktail (and better in some respects) and is unharmful.

Great. I heard good things about motul, would this be even better? I wished you guys found this out earlier before I put the "curse" into my tranny. I knew I had some bad feeling about that cocktail.

[williaty]

Motul 300 and the Extra S seem to work equally well. However, if you buy the Extra S yourself in the can, then it's WAAAAAAAAAAY cheaper than the Motul.

[jhargis]

Originally Posted by ride5000

again, who has ever worn out their front hypoid? ie so much wear that lash could not be adjusted correctly?

Right, I'm just saying the front diff is the only part I'd be concerned about, not neccessarily that it's going to shear all of the teeth off in 10 minutes of driving. I wouldn't even expect it to need as much protection as a 2wd car's hypoid diff since it's only handling 50% of the load. I wouldn't worry one bit about any non-hypoid gears in the tranny or the bearings, synchromesh is made to handle that. Do keep in mind that cars routinely go 200-300k miles these days before dying, and even then, the diff is usually still fine. So if even you doubled the wear on the front diff, you're still not looking at an immediately noticable problem, and wear could vary greatly depending on what kind of driving you do too... open highway or stop and go? I don't think synchromesh is going to kill the diff in 10k, 20k or even 60k miles... but it could reduce the diff's life by a bit.