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Old 09-03-2014, 01:30 PM   #526
SW00P_G
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I know this isn't the hydra forum but I'm going to post it here anyways. I have a feature request that I would like to see in the next version.

I would REALLY like the ability to shut off closed loop control at higher load points. for example, if your car is using the STT to pull out -3% it will continue to pull the 3% as you roll into boost. I'd like to be able to shut off the closed loop after let's say 3psi. Also it would be nice to limit the amount of change closed loop can make.

An Phil, I know you work very closely with Hydra. Is there any news on a new version coming out? It seems like the other vendors (Haltech, AEM, etc) have been releasing new products with USB and massive logging support. Just curious of the future roadmaps.

That being said, my car runs awesome! I love the flex fuel, right now I'm rolling with ~ 1/2 a tank of E85 and 1/2 a tank of 93. It's great to see everything work (fuel, timing, boost, etc) without the need for changing maps all the time!
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Old 09-03-2014, 03:35 PM   #527
Element Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SW00P_G View Post
I know this isn't the hydra forum but I'm going to post it here anyways. I have a feature request that I would like to see in the next version.

I would REALLY like the ability to shut off closed loop control at higher load points. for example, if your car is using the STT to pull out -3% it will continue to pull the 3% as you roll into boost. I'd like to be able to shut off the closed loop after let's say 3psi. Also it would be nice to limit the amount of change closed loop can make.

An Phil, I know you work very closely with Hydra. Is there any news on a new version coming out? It seems like the other vendors (Haltech, AEM, etc) have been releasing new products with USB and massive logging support. Just curious of the future roadmaps.

That being said, my car runs awesome! I love the flex fuel, right now I'm rolling with ~ 1/2 a tank of E85 and 1/2 a tank of 93. It's great to see everything work (fuel, timing, boost, etc) without the need for changing maps all the time!
The Hydra 2.7 already does that really. First off make sure you have full access and are in "Guru" mode (Tools/experience level/guru). Then go to tuning maps/closed loop/wideband p-gain to adjust your level of ecu feedback. When you are on a map in the Hydra, to to the menu and click "help" to get a map description.


"Table of Contents > Wideband Closed Loop P Gain

The wideband closed loop P gain table defines the proportional term used by the wideband closed loop PID fuel controller that produces the left module short term trim value and the right module short term trim value when the enable closed loop fuel control is selected and the left module sensor source or right module sensor source define a wideband sensor. This table can define P-term values from 0% to 100%. The throttle determines which points on this table are interpolated to produce the closed loop wideband P-term value.

To tune this table start by first setting the wideband closed loop I gain table to zero. Since the desired mode of operation for wideband closed loop is a constant movement between a slightly rich and a slightly lean condition, the proportional value should be set to the lowest value required to cause the short term trim to change direction every second or two. Lower throttle positions typically require lower P-term values.

To reach this table, set your experience level to expert or higher and select:

Tuning Maps→Closed Loop→Wideband Closed Loop P Gain"
In layman's terms setting the P-Gain and the Integral to 0 turns off the closed loop feedback and really high numbers produces aggressive feedback. Element Tuning base maps typically have those values set to 0 after 40% TPS so there is no closed loop at high load.

Now the closed loop is so good since you can set it as slow or fast as you want, you can run in with short term trims, or long term trim (if you purchased the LTT option). Running closed loop up to 40% TPS is really no issue (especially since you have complete control of your Closed Loop AFR Targets) and you can set the P/I to quicken it up if required or set your TPS cross over point much lower if you are trying to turn it off by 3 psi.

Just make sure you are using "wideband internal sensor module" and not "narrowband sensor" for this. For narrow band you would set your P/I very low since it's only for 14.7 AFR a not for all AFRs like wideband target.

The biggest step forward we made with 2.7 was making it tuner friendly and what I mean by that is we dumbed it down. People asked for the world and when released 2.6 and honestly it was way too complicated with way too many layers and options that your average tuner just couldn't master it so they blamed the unit. So for 2.7 we focused on giving what's really needed and just hiding the rest. LOL! We honestly have infinite capabilities and can type in advanced expressions into the output configuration to do just about anything you want.

Even new tuners to the Hydra 2.7 absolutely love it so it was a big step forward. Old tuners that I talk into trying it when they didn't like the older version also love it now.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow
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Old 09-03-2014, 04:26 PM   #528
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Man, I talked to you about that. If I put my P and I to 0 it's REALLY REALLY BAD!! I mean like it will go + or - 12% at random.

is a link to a video showing what I'm talking about. Maybe my Hydra is broken? But the other 2 we have at the shop do the same thing when I set the gains to zero.
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:06 PM   #529
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Swoop_G, Two things.

1) Screenshot your settings/AFR Target Settings.

2) Are you using the latest flash for R36? 2.7R84 firmware is the latest.
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:48 PM   #530
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Below is the screenshot. I have my car here at work, is there a quick way to check the current running firmware when connected? Dude, if I could really shut off the Wideband I swear I'll ship you a 6-pack of beer or whatever gift you want!

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Old 09-04-2014, 03:24 PM   #531
Element Tuning
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Ok so try a couple of things. First you have LTT enabled and that stores a table of fuel trims. You can clear the LTT trims under the tools menu. These trims are active all the time so if you want to start fresh with new WB settings you should clear the LTT table so trims are not applied in the throttle positions/load positions you no longer want them.

Also some changes to certain settings are best served with an ECU reset, so power off, and then open and connect. I've just noticed this with certain outputs, triggers, etc.

Firmware matching the software is extremely important. So go to Help/ECU Info and it should tell you which firmware you have installed. Given you had to ask I suspect you don't have the correct flash. www.hydraems.com/software is where you get the latest.

You will then go to your start menu, nemesis 2.7, and then use the firmware upgrade tool. You should read the firmware update notes as they often require new settings so I'll warn you about one. The latest has individual cylinder knock detection and correction. It only listens for detonation in the cylinder firing window knock occurs only. This means much of the background noise you used to have to tune around isn't there. Your knock threshold map will need to be adjusted accordingly.

I'm happy to drop in a new knock curve for you and reset the knock control settings if you email me the map.
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Old 09-04-2014, 03:38 PM   #532
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I already have the correct firmware. Below is a screenshot. And my STT's jump around with the gains at zero regardless if I turn off Long Term Trim or not. Back when I had the original map at 50+% throttle the P and I trims for the wideband were set to zero and it would pop and stumble. When I logged it I found the STT would jump to + or - 20%!!! Setting the P and I to a low number like 1% makes it settle down quite a bit. And like I said before. I have 2 other 2.7 cars running this firmware that I've tuned and they did the same thing. It's almost like setting the P or I to 0 really makes it 100%.




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Old 09-04-2014, 07:57 PM   #533
Element Tuning
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I can't say I've ever seen that so congratulations

You are running a genuine "Hydra EMS Wideband" correct and not an "External WB Input?"

Post over on the Hydra EMS actual forums to see if one of the engineers has seen this because I never have.
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Old 09-04-2014, 08:48 PM   #534
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Yeah, I'm using the Hydra wideband I bought from you. It works pretty good when I set it to 1%. Maybe this winter I can pull it out and have it looked at. That's the only thing that acts strange, everything else is dead on.
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Old 09-04-2014, 10:23 PM   #535
Element Tuning
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I would actual data log one pull starting under part throttle and then push into WOT. Log "short term fuel trim, long term fuel trim, throttle position, closed loop p term and I term, and air fuel ratio" and see what's up. Can always send me that log. Run it at 48hz, clear your log, and just before a second before your pull, start and than as soon as you are done pause the log. This way I have just what I need to look at, 15 seconds of data.
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Old 09-05-2014, 12:42 AM   #536
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Can do, do you want me to do that with the gains like they are now or at 0?
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Old 09-05-2014, 09:14 AM   #537
Element Tuning
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Set the wideband Proportional and Integral with my base values (or close) up to 40% TPS and then all zeros after. Turn off LTT, clear LTT table, but leave STT on. Reset Hydra after changes.

I would like to see STT showing on the logs under 40% tps and then none STT after.
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Old 09-05-2014, 01:14 PM   #538
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Holy CRAP!!! I just did that for the first time in a long time with the p and i set to 0 and it was SO BAD! Here is a screenshot of the log. Look at the STT and how crazy it is!!

I set the p and i to 0 at all throttle settings and it does the same thing if I'm not flooring it. From now on when I'm troubleshooting like that no more WOT. The second image is just sitting at an idle and it's still crazy erratic.

Are you sure that yours doesn't do the same thing when you have the P and I set to 0??

WOT



not WOT
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Old 09-08-2014, 05:04 PM   #539
Element Tuning
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I'll look into it for you but email me your map and the data log and I'll send it over to someone at Hydra EMS to have a look.
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Old 09-08-2014, 06:01 PM   #540
Element Tuning
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Swoop_G, I logged a car we have here and I'm not seeing what you are, so send me over the map and logs to see if I can see something in your map.

When I logged my car which runs closed loop STT up to 40% TPS and then all zeros I get a short closed loop to open loop delay (150-200 RPM) and then I get zero trims for the rest of the pull.

Log your "throttle position" to make sure you don't have a TPS sensor issue. Your logs show that it's turning on at high RPM so I want to look through your maps and or see if you are loosing TPS signal at high rpm. I wouldn't be too worried about running a WOT log as it's trying to add fuel.
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Old 09-09-2014, 07:57 AM   #541
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I've logged TPS and it's rock solid. I did find a problem though. My o2 sensor has a wire that was not properly crimped. It's the white wire, I took it out last night and crimped it. I'll try to test later and see if it made a difference. The way it was made you can tell that it was never properly crimped. The rubber seal that is in the back of the Delphi connector was in there but the wire was just sitting in there loose. How much are the replacement sensors?
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Old 09-09-2014, 01:06 PM   #542
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The wire being recrimped didn't make any difference.
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Old 09-09-2014, 01:48 PM   #543
Element Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SW00P_G View Post
Holy CRAP!!! I just did that for the first time in a long time with the p and i set to 0 and it was SO BAD! Here is a screenshot of the log. Look at the STT and how crazy it is!!

I set the p and i to 0 at all throttle settings and it does the same thing if I'm not flooring it. From now on when I'm troubleshooting like that no more WOT. The second image is just sitting at an idle and it's still crazy erratic.

Are you sure that yours doesn't do the same thing when you have the P and I set to 0??

WOT



not WOT
Give me a call when you have a chance and have your map open. You have some issues with your map that will be easier for me to talk you through vs. write an email. I think the biggest issue is that you are running the 2008+ STi CAN Protocol and I'm pretty sure you don't have an 08+ STi. CAN should be set to "CAN Disabled."

I want you to fix that and then set your ISC Position Fuel Trims to 0% everywhere for your application.
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Old 09-09-2014, 04:20 PM   #544
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I turned off the CAN, zereoed the ISC, Turned off long term, zeroed the LTT table, then reflashed the firmware again just in case, then reflashed the map. And it still does exactly the same thing. Are the cars you are testing on using flex fuel? I wonder if that has something to do with it?
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Old 10-10-2014, 10:03 PM   #545
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Hey, got a possible new problem. Possible because it may or may not be the Hydra and it could explain a problem I've been having for a long time.

Car Info: Same as posts above '05 STI w/ Hydra 2.6 A/C Removed

Problem: Radiator fans are always on. Key On = Fans on High. Cold or hot engine.

The car has been running cold for awhile (year?) now and I assumed it was just ambient temperatures combined with me putting a aftermarket radiator back in, boxing the radiator in, big oil cooler, and using both fans.

One of the recent times I drove the car, it started to overheat a little bit, fans weren't on, so replaced blown fuse and it seemed okay. This event may or may not be related.

I noticed today while putting air in one of the tires that the fans were on with the Key On. I know that isn't right. Have the fans been doing this for months now, which would explain the low operating temperatures, and I never noticed? Or did it just start doing it when that fuse blew? Hmmm. Commence troubleshooting.

Stuff I've Checked:

Fuses checked. Relays checked. Tried toggling defroster and A/C.

Then I thought I'd check to see if there was a way to know whether the Hydra was telling the system to turn the fans on. I couldn't find any sort of basic output on/off signal in the software but I did check the Thermofan temp and it was set to 98 (which I assume is Celsius).

Next step was finding a factory ECU pin-out and probing the Radiator Fan 1 and Radiator Fan 2 wires. It was a little hard to get a probe in there so I decided to first try plugging in the factory ECU.

Results:
The fans seem to operate normally with the factory ECU. They are off in the Key On position, and if I plug in the green diagnostic plug thing, the fans cycle between Off/Low/High.

Plugging the Hydra back in and the fans continue to be on constantly.

So is something wrong in the Hydra's fan control circuit? Is there a way I can more properly test it?

Appreciate it. Thanks.

Edit: Other small question. This "Guarantee Seal" on it is like a chastity belt. I see Hydra's site says all 2.6s are out of the free technical support window. Does that mean I can break this seal? Or if it's broken, will they refuse to service it? :P

Last edited by TheLadiesMan; 10-10-2014 at 11:08 PM.
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Old 10-10-2014, 11:49 PM   #546
Element Tuning
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If you don't see the "thermofan" and the "AC Fan" (sometimes it's just AC Clutch) in your Output Configuration then you likely messed your map up. I'm not going to have access to my laptop or a map to tell you which "output" it is in the Hydra but to me it sounds like you have that output set to "ON" instead of "Thermofan."

That would cause it to run 100% of the time instead of the thermofan temp setting you found.
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Old 10-10-2014, 11:53 PM   #547
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Hmm okay. I haven't changed anything on the map ever other than the TPS calibration stuff earlier.

Had it tuned on the dyno a number of years ago and that was it. Always been too afraid of messing something up myself :P

But now I know there is information I'm possibly not seeing. I'll go take another look through the software.
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Old 10-11-2014, 12:23 AM   #548
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Okay I took a screenshot of the Output Config.

Edit: So I changed PWM13 from THERMOFAN to OFF and nothing changed. I then changed PWM11 from AC CLUTCH to OFF and the fans stopped.

Awesome.

Think I understand this now. I'll do some actual testing tomorrow.


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Old 10-11-2014, 11:20 AM   #549
Element Tuning
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Ok so somewhere in your AC removal you've caused an issue or your AC button is "on". The AC is set by default to turn the fans on when "AC" request is on or even the defroster which runs the AC. Go to settings 2/input configuration/aux5 I believe. It's set to "AC Hi Request" but if you have removed the AC set it to "Off" and then test if the fans cycle on normally. You set the thermofan on temp lower if you like so you can test before the temp reaches normal 92C.
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Old 10-11-2014, 03:53 PM   #550
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Alright, so turning PWM11 from AC CLUTCH to OFF and leaving PWM13 on THERMOFAN seemed to do the trick. Fans were cycling on and off at the set temp. Perfect.

The AC Hi Request thing seemed to already be set OFF. It wasn't in any of the Input Config slots. Perhaps that being off and the other thing set to AC CLUTCH caused an issue. I know my A/C light on the temp knob doesn't light up when I press it so..

Kind of sad news is that the car still runs really cool once you start driving. It's about 55 degrees Fahrenheit out and on a damp day. While driving, it was staying between 140-160 F (Oil around same temp). Once you come to a stop then the temps would slowly climb back up and then back down during driving. It's a little frustrating because I try be easy on it and not rev it out or give it the beans when its not in normal operating temperatures. Not sure what I can do to lower temperatures during 8 months out of the year other then undoing some of my hard work or blocking off half the radiator with a piece of cardboard maybe.

Thanks for pointing out the Output Config menu though.
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