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Old 08-30-2003, 08:17 AM   #1
pale_rider
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Default NE1 with C5, Supra, M3, Porsche etc.

Any of you with high po cars that either traded it in on STI or own both?

Interested in your impressions and comparisons in terms of performance (I am not interested in looks, valet factor or chick factor) .

I have C5 and STI is its equal, IMHO, in so many ways .



Thanks.
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Old 08-30-2003, 03:31 PM   #2
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well i have an rs, and i feel that it handles as well as an sti now that its been modified... sure i dont have power anywhere NEAR the sti... closer to maybe half of a modifed sti but my dad has an s6 and whenever im home i like to take it out for a spin. It has a LOT of power... 340... but it has a slushbox and while tiptronic helps, and the fact that his year was the only one with tiptronic buttons on the steering wheel isnt to bad either, it just really isnt a responsive car. It doesnt grip well at ALL in turns because of the CRAPPY continental tires they put on it from the factory, but on the freeway its a friggen rocket. Id take my rs any day

:edit: oh yea, and my freind has a stock e36 m3 and that thing can MASH on the on ramps and on the freeway, but in the twisties he is equal or a bit slower than my rs, im pretty proud of that
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Old 08-30-2003, 10:43 PM   #3
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Sold my 2002 M3, waiting to get an STi hopefully.
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Old 08-31-2003, 12:13 PM   #4
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Well, my parents have an E36 and E46 M3, and I'm the crew chief on an SCCA T1 C5 that has an 03 ZO6 engine, and I've got an STi.
Of the bunch, I think the STi is about equal with the E46 in the dry, the sifferneces being the STi has better brakes nad the M3 has a bit more upper end power. The C5 ZO6 stock is definitely more powerful than the STi, but the brakes on the ZO6 are not quite as good, and the handling of the ZO6 is not quite as god either, but the power advantage would liekly make it faster given equal drivers and equal levels of prep on a dry road course. If it rains (or snows like it does here in NH), there is no question the STi is a better car given equal tires.
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Old 09-02-2003, 09:17 AM   #5
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Have a 97 Supra tt and a 04 STI. Supra is Faster more powerful for sure.

STI is quicker and feels much lighter in handleing. The STI is easier to drive fast with confidence.

Ben
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Old 09-02-2003, 09:32 AM   #6
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I have a 1971 LT1 Corvette...it has way more torque then the STi, I love my vette so I will not make any more comparisons...o wait...in Downtown Tokyo a bright yellow corvette stops a lot more traffic then a blue STi.


As far as new vettes go, look at the last issue of Car and Driver, the super tuner challenge, while there were no STi's there were a couple of EVO's...the modded evo's were no where as fast as the stock Z06 around the track they had set up...there is no replacement for displacement.
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Old 09-02-2003, 11:05 AM   #7
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I have a single turbo supra at home. Also have an STi. The supra is a monster, tottaly different animal to drive as you are on yoru toes all the time. The STi is predictable, very fun to drive, and puts very good power to the ground. No way would it touch a supra, but alot of fun to drive. Alot less grey hair with the STi.

Scott
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Old 09-02-2003, 11:27 AM   #8
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I have three of these: a 1999 Porsche 911/996, a 1987 Supra Turbo, and a 04 WRX STi.

First, the Supra is probably too old to compare. My wife has had it forever. It's in great shape, but blue book is only about 2500. So, we're keeping it because it's worth more than we could sell it for. Still fun to drive but no where as fast or nimble as the 911 or the STi.

I've had the 911 for about a year. No comparison between the STi and the 911 - the 911 will out corner the STi. No body roll on the 911 - but that's good and bad. The 911, when pushed too hard, will suddenly plow to the outside of the turn without warning (scary as hell...). The 911 feels tighter and smoother at high speeds. More than once I've looked down at the speedo and realized that I was going 20-30 MPH faster than what I thought I was doing.

Pure stats show that the 911 and STi are about the same 0-60. However, I gotta say that the STi *feels* faster. I love the gearing on the STi - the gears are so close in ratio that the engine stays in the sweet spot during accelleration. The 911 loses quite a bit of RPMs between shifts, so it seems to take longer to get back to the sweet spot. I think that this is just gearing - for example, I rarely get into 5th gear on the 911 unless I'm on the highway, but I'm hitting 5th in the STi around town.

Overall I love both the 911 and the STi. Just different cars. I got the STi because I can't/won't drive the 911 in the winter (it's a C2 RWD). Plus, I'm more willing to push the STi harder than the 911, 'cause the 911 costs more to repair :-).

I just got an email from another STi owner in my area. I hope to race this guy with my 911 to see exactly how the 911 and STi stack up. I don't know how much the STi AWD will help - I rarely spin the rear tires on the 911 during fast starts.

Oh well - my $.02 worth.
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Old 09-03-2003, 10:29 AM   #9
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I just completed my first hillclimb, so I can give you some impressions. There were 3 STis, a few Corvettes, and a lot of Porsches. My STi, stock and on the original tires, beat every Porsche. The older 911s are on race tires and driven well, just don't have the power at 6000 feet. The 911 turbo driver must just not try hard enough -- his times are pretty good and within a second of mine, but he really ought to be beating me. The C4 Corvette, on Kumhos and driven by someone who waves to corner workers while drifting the car around corners, beat the snot out of all of us. We don't have official times yet, but:

1:44 Formula Libre Snowmobile-engined thing, new hill record
1:56 C4 Corvette, SCCA AS
1:58 RX7 twin turbo, SM2 prepared
1:58 ESP Camaro with 315F,335R Hoosiers
2:02 Stock STi
2:03 911 turbo (only one driver, he did a 2:01 last year)
2:03 Stock STi, ESP STi w/ turbo-back and intake
2:06 944 turbo on Hoosiers
2:08 older 911s

I don't recall the WRX time, but I think it was in the 2:15 range. A plain 944 on Kumhos has done a 2:17. If I remember right, the fastest E36 M3 was about 2:05. No E46 M3s. I think the SM2 Supra got a 2:01, but he's got oodles of horsepower. I don't remember the time for the C5 Corvette (I seriously doubt it beat the C4 Corvette). I would bet I have the fastest time of any street-tired car. Almost all the cars that beat me were trailered, while mine is my daily driver (and on my daily tires as well).


And for one final impression -- I've ridden in a newer 911 turbo on the track after doing laps in my STi, and the 911 is way faster. No question. Can't give any opinions on the regular 911 on the track, but you can always look at the latest Sport Compact Car where they compare the Evo, M3, S4, and 911. According to them, the 911 loses a fair number of individual tests, but it really comes alive on the track and is faster than all the other cars (until they bring out the Vishnu tuned Evo). As always, driver experience matters -- I know during my lapping session that my instructor in a far inferior car could still outrun me since he can take the corners so much better. So going the other direction, being able to just romp on the NSX, Lotus Esprit, M3s, etc. at the track during my time may have been their novice driving rather than their car -- who knows.
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Old 09-03-2003, 06:44 PM   #10
Eric SS
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Default Re: NE1 with C5, Supra, M3, Porsche etc.

Quote:
Originally posted by pale_rider


I have C5 and STI is its equal, IMHO, in so many ways .



Thanks.
Care to elaborate?
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Old 09-03-2003, 09:45 PM   #11
pale_rider
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Sure,

Power- from a start it leaps off the line like the vette. From a roll C5 rules however.

Drivability- both are easy to drive fast.

Handling- both beg to be pushed into corners hard.

Fun factor- both are a blast to drive.

Racing heritage- C5 in GTS Le Mans and STI in rally

Both cars induce for me the feeling that I would be much happier driving them than sleeping. Its hard to understand I guess but its the feeling of anticipation you get thinking about driving them. I presume those with P cars, M3s etc. feel the same way. Never th
ought I'd say that about a Subbie!
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Old 09-03-2003, 11:08 PM   #12
Malcolm WRX
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Comparing the e46 M3 and STi in performance, I know there are situtations where the STi can accelerate through a corner and exit much faster than the M3. The M3 seems like it has a big edge at high speeds.

To borrow from UtahSTi's comments on the 911, the M3 is similar in that it provides a much more stable feeling when you are driving fast. Take for example, a corner I know that comes up over a bridge which has expansion joints. When taking it at 95 in the STi, the car feels unsettled, like I wouldn't want to drive it a lot faster, although I probably could. The same thing feels like nothing in the M3 at 95, and at 105 it feels as though going faster and the car would be drifting (or plowing), but the expansion joints are basically a non factor. I think the M3 suspension as stock is set up very nicely for real world roads.

In a low speed scenario with a lot of corners, I think the STi has the edge. At highway speeds, the M3 is faster. More significantly, is the M3s feeling of stability. The M3 feels right at home at just about any speed I have driven it, and like the 911, it isn't uncommon to look at the speedo and see you are going 20 or more over what it feels like.

The Subaru doesn't give me the same stable feeling at high speeds. Does that mean the M3 is performing better? I don't know, beyond saying that I personally, in a hypothetical situation, would comfortably drive the M3 faster on real roads than I would the STi. It may be that the STi will actually do more than the M3, I am just indicating that when things get really fast, the M3 is more comfortable for me. Keep in mind the newness of the STi and it might not be a fair comparison.

Performance between the two overall? I'd say it is a tossup. One of the best things about the STi is it is fun when you are not going real fast. Its AWD advantages are also most evident at lower speeds. I think if the M3 did not have SMG then I mgiht choose the STi over the M3 in the fun category. SMG would be utterly amazing in the STi. Like Sammy says, "one foot on the brake and one on the gas..."

In the end, I think SMG makes me a lot faster, and I don't know if the STi's superiority in delivering power through corners would overcome SMG advantages on an average track for me. For a really good driver, I suspect that the STi would be faster on a lot of tracks. For me, I think the M3wSMG would be right now, but then I am pretty new to the STi. We'll see how it goes....
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Old 09-03-2003, 11:44 PM   #13
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The Bogus Hillclimb was a lot of fun. I was the slow stock white STi. The C4 'Vett has street, rain, asphalt, and concrete tyres...
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Old 09-04-2003, 01:30 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Web Foot STi
The Bogus Hillclimb was a lot of fun. I was the slow stock white STi. The C4 'Vett has street, rain, asphalt, and concrete tyres...
Hi Web Foot! I don't know about slow -- you just took longer to get up to speed, but you caught up to the rest of us. I have no idea why I started out driving fast -- I doubt I'd do that anywhere else. I did watch some videos the week before to try to get a feel for the course. Maybe the BMWCCA driving schools helped.

I didn't know Cal's Vette had rain tires, but he does have 30 years of driving experience, plenty of runs up Bogus, and the will to push his car to the limits. He was the one who helped me learn to autocross, and I still have a lot of fun getting him to drive my car. So far we haven't had the opportunity to play with the STi, but one of these days I'll get him to take it out. At an autocross, not a hillclimb!

Anyway, while I haven't owned an STi and one of the cars in the subject, the event wasn't a bad venue to examine the performance of the cars (since all were represented except an E46 M3). Unfortunately like many things, it is a bit unequal -- driver experience isn't all equal, and the preparation of each car was different (e.g. the pretty stock STis who haven't got a handle on the DCCD settings yet and none have raced the hill, vs. the C4 'vette which is well sorted and has experience on the hill).
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Old 09-04-2003, 06:53 AM   #15
Mr. Grinch
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Quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm WRX
Comparing the e46 M3 and STi in performance, I know there are situtations where the STi can accelerate through a corner and exit much faster than the M3. The M3 seems like it has a big edge at high speeds.
Damn! You're making me miss my M3 more and more! :-) I wish I had the SMG... they offered it just a few months after I got mine. By the end of my time with the M3 though I was getting attached to the 6 speed. Clutch was excellent, but the stick was notchy as hell, worse when cold.

Anyways, I agree M3 feels extremely stable up to the limiter. It also does feel heavier than say the E36 M3 for example. DSC is a life saver too.

I posted in another STi vs M3 thread that the M3 handles the way many people expect, FWD / RWD is very easy for many people to get used to. I had a lot of comments back about this but I still think it's true. The evidence is in several recent threads where people were either tracking their STi or asking about the way the front diff makes the car feel wierd to them. Note I'm not saying it's good or bad, just pointing out the evidence that there is a learning curve there for some people, particularly people who've spent the majority of their time in RWD performance cars.

I think once that learning curve is over, then the differences aren't so much an issue for a driver but it takes time before some people are comfortable enough to push the car to the limits and know what to expect and how to deal with the various ways you can loose control.

Of course, visit any M3 forum, and there are lots of guys who hate the way the stock M3 handles, and spend 5k to 10k on wheels and suspension mods right off the start, and brake mods if they are tracking the car. In my opinion the STi has the edge in being a more economical track car from the start.
- cheaper tires
- cheaper wheels
- same wheel / tire size all around
- potential for better tire life with AWD
- I've NOT heard a lot of complaints about STi owners cooking their brakes on the track, which is a common complaint for E46 M3, particularly drivers who tend to brake too long into turns. M3 is a bit heavier which does not help.
- generaly cheaper parts.
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Old 09-04-2003, 11:06 AM   #16
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nice list...
cheaper rims also... (not as wide)..

Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Grinch

- cheaper tires
- cheaper wheels
- same wheel / tire size all around
- potential for better tire life with AWD
- I've NOT heard a lot of complaints about STi owners cooking their brakes on the track, which is a common complaint for E46 M3, particularly drivers who tend to brake too long into turns. M3 is a bit heavier which does not help.
- generaly cheaper parts.
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Old 09-04-2003, 11:27 AM   #17
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A STOCK Supra TT and a STOCK STi will be pretty close. It's been a while since I drove a stock Supra but from what I can remember I think it would be close. STi having the advantage off the line and the Supra at speed. Ride and everything else is pretty similar. Of course the Supra has a nicer interior but considering what they went for new it should but you can't beat the AWD, 4 doors, and usable trunk of the STi. Now a modded Supra and the potential of a Supra is a different story, but stock for stock it would be close.
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Old 09-04-2003, 02:33 PM   #18
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Default I've Got a Modded Supra Turbo

And I would LOVE to drive an STI for comparison.

I haven't seen an STI at a Northern Virginia dealer in several months, and so I haven't had a chance to test drive one.

But if it is true that a stock STI is like a stock Supra, then the STI is one hell of a car. I had an E36 M3, and I'd have to say that it wasn't as fast as the Supra (when it was stock) at full song, so this means that an STI is quicker than an E36 M3, which is really saying something.

At autocrosses, E36 M3s are pretty formidable, as are EVOs. I'd like to see an STI at one.
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