New WRX and new engine on the way

[samagon]

Originally Posted by SubaDuba420

SSSSssssshhhhh!!! if anyone mentions "and make it manual" HTBS will be summoned...

but lets be honest, if it's the split case manual they've used in the WRX forever, I'm torn between whether it'd be better to have the CVT. especially when we're looking at the cable shift they 'upgraded' to in the VA.

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[dwf137]

That manual put down over 300/300 in my old wrx on a stock clutch for like 80k miles, including a good period of time with my wife learning how to drive stick on it as we only had one car for a few years. It's not the best manual out there, but a cvt? yall went soft.

[samagon]

oh sure, it can handle some decent power, and if you treat it right it will last a long time.

doesn't change the fact that it is a very uninspired wet noodle.

[dwf137]

Originally Posted by samagon

oh sure, it can handle some decent power, and if you treat it right it will last a long time.

doesn't change the fact that it is a very uninspired wet noodle.

Okay but a CVT is like another whole world of limp wet noodles... CVT's ruin every car they're put in. There is no road going CVT vehicle that couldn't be improved by a better geared automatic or manual transmission. The concept of a CVT is cool, but then Subaru went and ruined it by trying to simulate gears, effectively getting rid of the theoretical benefit of a CVT in the first place. Their CVT's without simulated gears sucked too though, so yeah, it's just that CVT's suck. Will never own another one ever again.

I also don't get the complaints people have about manual transmissions. Every car I've had, internet complains. Had 4 manual cars now, MCS, WRX, Golf R, 135i. Driven quite a few others, miata, s2k, ms3, 5-series, tacoma, even a ford explorer. They all shift gears. Clutch generally feels fine. Every one of them is more fun to drive than any automatic on the market. I guess I just don't get caught up in the minor nuances of the transmissions and just enjoy the fact that I can chose my own gears. I care about the output, not the input.

[fredzy]

Originally Posted by dwf137

Okay but a CVT is like another whole world of limp wet noodles... CVT's ruin every car they're put in. There is no road going CVT vehicle that couldn't be improved by a better geared automatic or manual transmission. The concept of a CVT is cool, but then Subaru went and ruined it by trying to simulate gears, effectively getting rid of the theoretical benefit of a CVT in the first place. Their CVT's without simulated gears sucked too though, so yeah, it's just that CVT's suck. Will never own another one ever again.

I also don't get the complaints people have about manual transmissions. Every car I've had, internet complains. Had 4 manual cars now, MCS, WRX, Golf R, 135i. Driven quite a few others, miata, s2k, ms3, 5-series, tacoma, even a ford explorer. They all shift gears. Clutch generally feels fine. Every one of them is more fun to drive than any automatic on the market. I guess I just don't get caught up in the minor nuances of the transmissions and just enjoy the fact that I can chose my own gears. I care about the output, not the input.

Oh man, same here I've always been baffled by the hate for VA shift feel. My theory boils down to lots of variation from car to car..

I mean for people who can't stand the VA shifter - what do you consider the best? I see samagon, and that makes sense. He apparently loves rowing those heavy-ass gears in that GRC. I was impressed with it at first. Very solid and positive gear feel, but too heavy and to much resistance the whole way through each shift got a little old. Not to mention it betrayed me with some really strange grinds on a few odd occasions and I stopped trusting it.

[samagon]

Originally Posted by dwf137

Okay but a CVT is like another whole world of limp wet noodles... CVT's ruin every car they're put in. There is no road going CVT vehicle that couldn't be improved by a better geared automatic or manual transmission. The concept of a CVT is cool, but then Subaru went and ruined it by trying to simulate gears, effectively getting rid of the theoretical benefit of a CVT in the first place. Their CVT's without simulated gears sucked too though, so yeah, it's just that CVT's suck. Will never own another one ever again.

I also don't get the complaints people have about manual transmissions. Every car I've had, internet complains. Had 4 manual cars now, MCS, WRX, Golf R, 135i. Driven quite a few others, miata, s2k, ms3, 5-series, tacoma, even a ford explorer. They all shift gears. Clutch generally feels fine. Every one of them is more fun to drive than any automatic on the market. I guess I just don't get caught up in the minor nuances of the transmissions and just enjoy the fact that I can chose my own gears. I care about the output, not the input.

well yeah, you get to the point, and it's why I didn't get another WRX, the fact that I consider the manual to be just as bad as a CVT.

Originally Posted by fredzy

Oh man, same here I've always been baffled by the hate for VA shift feel. My theory boils down to lots of variation from car to car..

I mean for people who can't stand the VA shifter - what do you consider the best? I see samagon, and that makes sense. He apparently loves rowing those heavy-ass gears in that GRC. I was impressed with it at first. Very solid and positive gear feel, but too heavy and to much resistance the whole way through each shift got a little old. Not to mention it betrayed me with some really strange grinds on a few odd occasions and I stopped trusting it.

the best shifter feel I've had in a car I've owned was the BRZ. the STI was damn good too, but the BRZ was a level of tightness that I doubt I'll even own again out of a stock vehicle. and that goes down even as far as before the trans was properly warmed up that you have to slot the gears with care.

the GRC isn't as good as the BRZ, or STI, but is leagues better than the WRX. I'm going on 20 years of memory now, but it's on par with what I recall from my GSR for engagement. and that shifter was connected to the transmission via a more traditional linkage, rather than a cable shift.

and from cars I've driven, from back in my days as a Ford tech, I had my hand on a number of SVT Cobras in the mid 90s, as well as just normal 5.0 GTs, and those had very positive feedback, which really, that's what I like out of a manual transmission, is positive feedback, to feel the collar engaging the gear through the synchro rings. but failing that, I at least want to put it into gear and know I'm in the right gear, meaning, the shifter shouldn't have so much play in it that I don't know whether I'm in 3rd or 1st, which at least my instance of the VA, didn't provide me with any confidence in that area. and since I never saw any notices or anything from Subaru that the shift linkage was made better, I can only assume that's what they intended and it's working as designed.

[Brahmzy]

Originally Posted by dwf137

CVT's ruin every car they're put in.

Ayep!

[RobM]

10.5 years in my 2015 WRX with HTCVT. No issues.

Haters gonna hate.

[Russ_G93]

Hmmmm......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq7tsD_nW04&ab_channel=KirkKreifels

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq7tsD_nW04&ab_channel=KirkKreifels

[SCRAPPYDO]

so its a Toyota Venza

[KC]

Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO

so its a Toyota Venza

So it's an Impreza.

[KC]

Originally Posted by RobM

10.5 years in my 2015 WRX with HTCVT. No issues.

Haters gonna hate.

Taken it off any sweet jumps?

Autox/trackdays (course/drag)? (Got results to link to?)

Or just daily driven? A CVT is fine for commuting and on/off ramps when you wanna get wild (to you). You have no argument there. When it comes to asking the car to perform outside of daily driving/public roads, a CVT ain't it.

[fredzy]

I mean the "issue" with the CVT is just how they are.

I am so thankful for Toyota putting them in everything. It has been a sort of wife repellent. The only thing saving our old 100k mile (basically a garage queen) Sienna from being traded in for less than 1/3 of its intrinsic value is the fact that everything my wife wants sounds/feels like a groaning turd to drive in comparison thanks to that CVT. New Sienna, Grand Highlander. I told her we will get CX90 before Grand Highlander.

Meanwhile I've driven my brother in law's '16 FXT with same engine/trans as VA WRX many times and have always been impressed with how strong and smooth it felt.

[JRodrigues]

Will Subaru return to the WRC? We decipher what's next for the horizontally opposed car from the mysterious image that suggests the next WRX!!!

Will Subaru return to the WRC? We decipher what's next for the horizontally opposed car from the mysterious image that suggests the next WRX!!!
***12288;At the recent Fuji 24 Hours race, Subaru announced that they are developing a new horizontally opposed engine! Could it be the next-generation WRX? A mysterious image sparked rumors, and CTO Fujinuki made a statement. Subaru has switched to an "offensive" approach, so we can only hope for the best!

Subaru has been participating in the "ST-Q" series of the Super Taikyu series since 2022, where development vehicles can compete. Currently, the company is developing the Performance X Future Concept with the aim of "building environmentally friendly technology for turbo engines" and "expanding AWD technology to future BEVs/ICEs." In the 2025 Fuji 24 Hours, which was the first time this machine participated, it completed 518 laps with no trouble, no accidents, and no penalties, and won 17th place overall (2nd place in the ST-Q class).***12288;

***12288;Subaru has publicly stated that it is currently developing a new horizontally opposed engine. The prototype engine has already undergone various tests on bench tests, and in the future it will be honed in the Super Taikyu series. President Atsushi Osaki also participated in the ignition ceremony. A photo of him smiling broadly with the engine development team was also released.

Subaru has announced that it will "focus on BEVs" in its mid- to long-term plan, but why is it developing a new engine now? When we asked CTO Tetsuro Fujinuki, he gave us the following answer.

"Subaru must never become a commodity. That's why I think the key is to 'provide something different from other companies' and 'do something that other companies haven't done,' and the new engine is one example of that. To go into more detail, our company's engines have up until now been made separately for naturally aspirated and turbocharged vehicles. In order to keep internal combustion engines in the future, we need an engine that combines both...that's the idea. We will announce more details at the Japan Mobility Show in the fall of 2025."

***12288;After hearing this story, I felt that the idea behind Toyota's new engine development was quite similar. So, I would expect the details of the new engine to be something like this.

***12539;Development is not an extension of the past, but a complete change of concept

***12539;Compact and lightweight

***12539;Compatible with a variety of fuels

- Environmental performance that meets Euro 7 regulations and beyond

- Displacement is 2.0L only***8265;

***12539;NA is developed in conjunction with electrified devices***8265;

***12539;The turbo is expandable to suit a wide range of driving styles from eco to sports.***8265;

***12288;Fujinuki continued, "We need to think seriously about what we should do for our customers who choose Subaru, and we are currently having various discussions within the company. This does not mean 'what we want to do', but rather 'doing what our customers want.' What is that? I think it's 'scalability' and 'flexibility.' In the near future, we would like to create attractive cars that make good use of our current technological assets, and in the future, we would like to create even more cutting-edge cars." One of these words was revealed as a surprise image.

I decided to ask Mr. Fujinuki directly, and he gave me this hint with a grin.

***12288;"We have a number of technological assets, and some of them make you wonder, 'Why don't you release them?' I personally think, 'Just release them.' Incidentally, we currently offer strong HEVs for the Crosstrek and Forester. Until now, it was possible or not depending on CAFE regulations (Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards), but under current calculations, if you sell two strong HEVs, you can sell one internal combustion engine model. When that happens, you start to think, 'What model do we need?'

However, the car you imagine is not the only cutting-edge model, there are various proposals... To put it more simply, the new RAV4 is only available in HEV/PHEV, so even if they wanted to release a MT model, they couldn't. In such a case, it's like, "What would Subaru do?" That's not a hint at all (laughs)."

If we take all of this information at face value, the immediate products will be an expansion of the model lineup that takes advantage of "scalability (combinations that do not exist in the current lineup, such as a high-output turbo engine + MT)" and "flexibility (such as adding a sports-oriented grade to the SUV line)." The author predicts that future products will be a "model reform" that returns to the roots of the current lineup (what was the WRX created for?).

Unless future models make an impact of that magnitude, they won't be able to take the main stage at Japan Mobility in 2025, and Subaru fans won't be convinced either.

There are still many things we don't know, but one thing we can say is that Subaru has recently switched from being "defensive" to being "offensive." This makes us even more excited about Subaru's future.

https://bestcarweb.jp/feature/column/1238918

[fredzy]

wtf Subaru has 'switched to being offensive' ever since they seared our eyeballs with that VB WRX, amirite!!?1

[RobM]

Originally Posted by KC

Taken it off any sweet jumps?

Autox/trackdays (course/drag)? (Got results to link to?)

Or just daily driven? A CVT is fine for commuting and on/off ramps when you wanna get wild (to you). You have no argument there. When it comes to asking the car to perform outside of daily driving/public roads, a CVT ain't it.

I don’t abuse it, since it’s not a race car nor a rally car. I can’t imagine anyone that would buy a WRX thinking it is.

[bugatti0628]

What does that mean for the MY26 wrx, is the refresh for the MY26 and MY27 supposed to satisfy the model until the next gen comes out for the MY28. The work subaru has done on the SPT for the S210 shows they have developed a version that can handle the same 277ft lbs of torque that the outback, legacy, ascent currently have. That should mean subaru is safe with the MT and SPT putting out the amount of torque without any repercussions now that both trannys can handle it. Also the introduction of the refreshed solterra, the crosstrek hybrid, and the forester hybrid should help offset the the power and torque increases they may want to implement

[mcarb002]

I'm not holding my breath for whatever this thing is, as it will 100% not be an STI. IF we're lucky some hatch VB WRX with some Toyota borrowed tech and 315 HP absolutely tops. WOohooo Subaru congrats!!

Unfortunately, I think Subaru will never be able to replicate what they did with the initial STI, as far as being a true pocket rocket in relation to the market. By the time Subaru comes out with the next-gen STI even a Corolla will be as fast.. They move too slow and play it too safe. Everyone else will be miles ahead already.

Maybe Subaru does a really good job and deliver a really solid vehicle. The improved motor with hybrid assist to bump to 375-400 maybe maybe..but even then I think it'll start at like $60K and feel like it's playing catch up with an RS3 from 5 years prior.

[20WRX20]

We're definitely going to see the STi come back now that CAFE fines are being eliminated. Say what you want about politics but those fines were complete BS. There should have been an INCENTIVE to get good corporate average fuel economy, not fines. That was always BS and killed off a lot of fun vehicles.

New golden era of performance cars on the way! Stellantis just revived their SRT brand today too.

Pricing will be interesting. A Premium WRX is $42,000 right now. I can't see an STi being under $60,000, and for that price, there are a lot of better options.

[20WRX20]

Originally Posted by bugatti0628

What does that mean for the MY26 wrx, is the refresh for the MY26 and MY27 supposed to satisfy the model until the next gen comes out for the MY28. The work subaru has done on the SPT for the S210 shows they have developed a version that can handle the same 277ft lbs of torque that the outback, legacy, ascent currently have. That should mean subaru is safe with the MT and SPT putting out the amount of torque without any repercussions now that both trannys can handle it. Also the introduction of the refreshed solterra, the crosstrek hybrid, and the forester hybrid should help offset the the power and torque increases they may want to implement

Just speculating, but:
2026: Unchanged
2027: Mid-Cycle Refresh
2028: STi

[Russ_G93]

"We need to think seriously about what we should do for our customers who choose Subaru, and we are currently having various discussions within the company. This does not mean 'what we want to do', but rather 'doing what our customers want.' What is that? I think it's 'scalability' and 'flexibility.' In the near future, we would like to create attractive cars that make good use of our current technological assets, and in the future, we would like to create even more cutting-edge cars."

It sounds like they're focused on being able to incorporate what people want on specific trims, Multiple configs for the new engine/trims.
They mentioned the new Rav4, So its at least known that they see the power output of the new GR Rav4 in comparison to the current VB/Outback 2.4, and will be adjusting accordingly with their design aspirations.

They already know 80% of their "Halo Car" (WRX) are manual sales. "What is Subaru to do?" - Yeah thats my question. Basically if they can get this new engine configured, that will allow for a Hybrid add-on for specific model trims (the Subaru way), they can provide the powerplant with perhaps a big turbo for the WRX (2015 all over again - 2.0?), and remain within their operational budget/emissions adherences. (Honestly Shouldn't be too hard, the New Audi S3 is pretty much pushing 330 at crank on a 2.0 - Which I may trade into if Subaru can't get this new hatch correct).

More or less, just info we already know they are currently dealing with. As far as "Attractive Cars," I don't have a whole lot of confidence in that statement lol.

2026? RIP Big Minor Refresh?
2027 - Introduction of the STI coming back??? (I think they know it Can't be an Auto.. Which means it can't be a Hybrid, or they might be ballsy enough to offer both - Selling maybe 10 Hybrid STI's per year)

Shame though, Quite like the Turbo 2.4. - Despite all the modding people have done, they've held up quite well as far as the internet is concerned.

[JustyWRC]

Originally Posted by dwf137

Okay but a CVT is like another whole world of limp wet noodles... CVT's ruin every car they're put in. There is no road going CVT vehicle that couldn't be improved by a better geared automatic or manual transmission. The concept of a CVT is cool, but then Subaru went and ruined it by trying to simulate gears, effectively getting rid of the theoretical benefit of a CVT in the first place. Their CVT's without simulated gears sucked too though, so yeah, it's just that CVT's suck. Will never own another one ever again.

I also don't get the complaints people have about manual transmissions. Every car I've had, internet complains. Had 4 manual cars now, MCS, WRX, Golf R, 135i. Driven quite a few others, miata, s2k, ms3, 5-series, tacoma, even a ford explorer. They all shift gears. Clutch generally feels fine. Every one of them is more fun to drive than any automatic on the market. I guess I just don't get caught up in the minor nuances of the transmissions and just enjoy the fact that I can chose my own gears. I care about the output, not the input.

The biggest reason for that was the CUSTOMER. They complained there was no shift feel. Soooo, Subaru responded. As for the manual mode, especially in the HTCVT/SPT(way more so in SPT), it feels just like a manual minus the clutch pedal. Each time I drove one in anger, I keep going for the clutch before realizing I just had to use my fingers. I quite like it. I'm in the camp of always offering both. For whatever reason someone has to buy them. Not sure why they went CVT only for Japan; but, I'd say they are overall OK with it. I saw far more on the streets while I was over there in mid April than I do anywhere here.

Originally Posted by KC

Taken it off any sweet jumps?

Autox/trackdays (course/drag)? (Got results to link to?)

Or just daily driven? A CVT is fine for commuting and on/off ramps when you wanna get wild (to you). You have no argument there. When it comes to asking the car to perform outside of daily driving/public roads, a CVT ain't it.

Subjective. The SPT is quite good.

Originally Posted by bugatti0628

What does that mean for the MY26 wrx, is the refresh for the MY26 and MY27 supposed to satisfy the model until the next gen comes out for the MY28. The work subaru has done on the SPT for the S210 shows they have developed a version that can handle the same 277ft lbs of torque that the outback, legacy, ascent currently have. That should mean subaru is safe with the MT and SPT putting out the amount of torque without any repercussions now that both trannys can handle it. Also the introduction of the refreshed solterra, the crosstrek hybrid, and the forester hybrid should help offset the the power and torque increases they may want to implement

I forget what year(before the VB was even announced though), a SBR exec was quoted saying they were working on an Auto for the STI. The S210 SPT could very well be the result of that work.

Originally Posted by mcarb002

I'm not holding my breath for whatever this thing is, as it will 100% not be an STI. IF we're lucky some hatch VB WRX with some Toyota borrowed tech and 315 HP absolutely tops. WOohooo Subaru congrats!!

Unfortunately, I think Subaru will never be able to replicate what they did with the initial STI, as far as being a true pocket rocket in relation to the market. By the time Subaru comes out with the next-gen STI even a Corolla will be as fast.. They move too slow and play it too safe. Everyone else will be miles ahead already.

Maybe Subaru does a really good job and deliver a really solid vehicle. The improved motor with hybrid assist to bump to 375-400 maybe maybe..but even then I think it'll start at like $60K and feel like it's playing catch up with an RS3 from 5 years prior.

I believe they can. The canceled STI was going to turn some heads.

What I can also believe is the insane expectations of this site to have not been impressed with what was going to come.

[KC]

Originally Posted by JustyWRC

Subjective. The SPT is quite good.

Subjective is a red herring. Nothing subjective in times run. It's you and a clock. You're either faster than everyone else, or chasing the top. Objectively.

Quite good will not get you to the top 10%, probably not even top 20%, in class on the national level (or you if you have someone talented in your class in your small pond locally). You/it needs better than quite good. That is if you want to be competitive/win on a national scale. Small pond? Go for it. Knock yourself out.

[fredzy]

Originally Posted by mcarb002

IF we're lucky some hatch VB WRX with some Toyota borrowed tech and 315 HP absolutely tops. WOohooo Subaru congrats!!

What you just described there is > GR Corolla

A boxer turbo with D4-S would be something else. But yeah if they are teasing an actual vehicle that will be sold, I expect a Japan market only car that I would have never considered, even if it wasn't CVT only (which it will be)

Originally Posted by Russ_G93

"We need to think seriously about what we should do for our customers who choose Subaru, and we are currently having various discussions within the company. This does not mean 'what we want to do', but rather 'doing what our customers want.' What is that? I think it's 'scalability' and 'flexibility.' In the near future, we would like to create attractive cars that make good use of our current technological assets, and in the future, we would like to create even more cutting-edge cars."

It sounds like they're focused on being able to incorporate what people want on specific trims, Multiple configs for the new engine/trims.
They mentioned the new Rav4, So its at least known that they see the power output of the new GR Rav4 in comparison to the current VB/Outback 2.4, and will be adjusting accordingly with their design aspirations.

I hear all of these things they're saying and my mind computes it into:



An appliance with an "I'm cool" sticker on it. This is what the people want.

[JustyWRC]

Originally Posted by KC

Subjective is a red herring. Nothing subjective in times run. It's you and a clock. You're either faster than everyone else, or chasing the top. Objectively.

Quite good will not get you to the top 10%, probably not even top 20%, in class on the national level (or you if you have someone talented in your class in your small pond locally). You/it needs better than quite good. That is if you want to be competitive/win on a national scale. Small pond? Go for it. Knock yourself out.

Certainly true. I haven't tried looking for any videos that had a SPT running against a MT. I just remember never finding a video of a stock MT beating a HTCVT. I remember folks talking about the HTCVT having overheating issues when pushed regularly. Usually taken care of with some extra cooling. Have not heard of any issue like that with the SPT. And as I've said before, Subaru brought a couple SPTs to their commercial shoots where they flogged the SPT ALL day. They brought a backup in case of an issue. The 2nd car wasn't even used. It took every bit of it.


The thing here is, is there anyone that is even trying to take a SPT to a "national level"?


Hence my subjective comment. You think it won't. I think it could.