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Old 11-01-2019, 01:48 PM   #1
rymaggi
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Default Heel-Toe shifting assistance - 2016 STI - Track Duty

I've started tracking my 2016 STI which has some nice subtle modding done to it, and the one thing i'm struggling to learn (Trying everyday during DD driving), is nailing heel toe shifting. I find myself inconsistent holding the brake pedal as i blurp, have bad timing, and sometime can't find the pedal.

I wanted to see what is out there for "Training wheels" if you will that helps noobs like me heel-toe.

I've come across extended gas pedals that widen the pedal itself. as well as the Verus spacer that allows you to adjust the gas pedal towards you and more to the left.

Does anyone recommend these? Any wisdom of how you've learned or whats helped you would be greatly appreciated here.


Products i've taken a look at:

https://www.subispeed.com/2015-subar...i#.XbxhhOhKiUn

https://www.subispeed.com/2013-subar...z#.XbxhsehKiUk




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Last edited by rymaggi; 11-01-2019 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 11-01-2019, 02:50 PM   #2
Jack
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You don't need hardware additions with a Subaru. They're relatively easy to heel/toe with. Not Lotus easy, but easy.

The first thing to understand from a 10,000 foot viewpoint is the the throttle blip does not have to match revs to within 0.01%. Getting close is good enough. Your goal is to not have your tires upset the balance of the car under hard braking.

Next, understand that there's not just one way to do this. It seems that the world thinks that using the side of your foot to blip the throttle as you're braking is the only way. It's one way (and I only ever understood this with my Lotus because the pedals are placed so well), but there are at least 2 others. Depends how big your feet are, how flexible you are and what you can commit to muscle memory.

I learned simply by hearing the phrase heel/toe. I thought, ok....I want to be braking. And I want to control the throttle just to get a shift point in line. Maybe if I brake with my heel, then my toe is free to hit the top of the gas pedal. Yah, that works. So that's what I learned. The benefit is that once you get past the weird feeling of braking with your heel, it's quite easy to control the throttle. You can start by only braking with your heel all the time. Then twist your toe over so you could hit the gas if you wanted. Then ease into blipping.....or even holding the gas where you want it while your heel is pushing the brake.

Practice. Don't practice in traffic. Don't practice if a mistake will put you in a guard rail. Don't come in at Warp 9 and try to pull this off. Off ramps are, of course, one of the best places to practice, once you've started getting it.

Once you do get it down, you'll be adding a double clutch to this so that not only do you keep the drive wheels settled while braking, but you keep your synchros happy.

Have fun.
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Old 11-01-2019, 03:59 PM   #3
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You need to find the position your foot is happy with. Unlike Jack, I brake with the ball of my foot and rotate my heel toward the throttle. The side of my foot just above my heel is where I feel the pressure from the pedal the most.

Many people make this harder than it needs to be by focusing on the tach. What you really need to focus on is the sound. Go to a place where you won't piss people off and get use to blipping the throttle to a specific RPM. Then pick another. Then another. Doesn't really matter what you use as long as you make it incrementally higher each time. This way you're getting use to the sound of that RPM and building the muscle memory for how large of an input your foot needs to make. Do all this with one part of your foot on the brake and another part on the throttle. That placement depends on your comfort like mentioned earlier. Foot size plays a big role.

Once you feel like you can nail those different RPM ranges with your eyes closed, find a relatively slow but flowy section of road (primarily uphill if possible) and practice making those downshifts without the brake pedal being used. 4-3 and 3-2 will be most beneficial. You can use this technique in daily driving as well since you're simply rev matching and not braking as well. Once your comfortable with this then add in light braking around corners. I also had some good straight flat roads where I could get up to 60 and brake hard while downshifting because I had good visibility and could choose where and when so I wasn't putting myself or others at risk.

The whole point is find the position you're most comfortable in and practice practice practice. But do it in a safe space where you won't piss people off or hurt someone.
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Old 11-01-2019, 04:56 PM   #4
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Unrelated, but definitely keep an eye on oil temperatures when you're tracking. My 2011 gets into insane ranges of heat without an oil cooler.
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Old 11-01-2019, 07:44 PM   #5
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Old 11-02-2019, 05:02 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by nerz View Post
Unrelated, but definitely keep an eye on oil temperatures when you're tracking. My 2011 gets into insane ranges of heat without an oil cooler.
Actually just ordered a the Perrin oil cooler about 3 hours ago. Next is a gauge and the KillerB oil pan kit
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Old 11-02-2019, 05:17 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
The video does help. I just can't seem to roll my heel over and press it down like he does. It's like i'm out of range of motion with my heel.

Possibly need to bring my seat closer?
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Old 11-03-2019, 12:12 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rymaggi View Post
The video does help. I just can't seem to roll my heel over and press it down like he does. It's like i'm out of range of motion with my heel.



Possibly need to bring my seat closer?


What size is your foot? Remember everyone is different. Use the part of your foot that WILL make contact with the gas pedal. The brake is the more important pedal obviously, so it's not important what part of your foot moves over the gas just that you can do it comfortably and maintain control
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Old 11-05-2019, 06:20 PM   #9
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I've just about given up. With a size 12 (closer to 13) and triple e width...
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Old 11-05-2019, 06:27 PM   #10
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I rarely use my actual heel while heel-toe on street. I just use the side of my right foot to blip the throttle as I don't brake so hard.

MT driving is like learning a musical instrument. To be really good at it, like 2nd nature, you need to practice a good while. Some folks get it real quick, some take longer. Just stick to it and you'll get it some day.
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Old 11-06-2019, 01:13 PM   #11
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OP, how many track days you got under your belt?

Be patient, it takes awhile to get proficient, especially under hard threshold braking, at speeds and RPM ranges you probably don't see a ton on the street if you're practicing that way too. AWD Subarus seem a little clunkier than most other cars I've driven when rev-matching, so even if you're doing it pretty well, it might not feel 100% for a while.

8 years into tracking, and my biggest challenge is still modulating the maximum threshold brake pressure smoothly with my toe, while rotating to hit the gas with my heel area. Often times I will momentarily (accidentally) release a bit of brake pedal pressure when rotating my foot to blip the throttle until I'm warmed up and feeling comfortable.

I would agree with others that it definitely doesn't have to be perfect timing or especially perfect throttle blip, but don't give up! It is SUPER rewarding once you start getting it, and you'll get much smoother/faster/nicer to the car too.

I would also think that most people's toe/ball of foot is going to be a lot more pressure sensitive/controllable than a heel, and thus would be much better to modulate the brake with the more sensitive and finely controllable part of your foot.

Best tip I ever got was from a Miata buddy early on in my tracking, when I asked how much to blip the gas, and he said " I dunno man, I just try and hit it as quick and hard as I can"
Probably a little better to slightly over-rev on the match than under-rev and lock/load the drivetrain with a decent under-revved match IMO.

FWIW, I'm typically tracking something other than a Subaru, and I DID modify the throttle pedal spacing to be closer to the brake pedal, despite already having pretty big( size14) feet. In my '05 WRX, I feel the pedal spacing is already pretty darn good, but a 2016 could certainly be different. Don't be afraid to expiriment with spacers, etc if you think it'll help YOU with heel-toe. Everybody is different.

Also wanted to add that missing the brake pedal is real bad when going for the heel/toe, but missing the throttle is not the end of the world. Focus on finding the brake pedal in the heat of the moment and then manipulating brake pressure before being overly concerned with the throttle blip match.

Practice, practice practice!

Last edited by WhiteZombie; 11-06-2019 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 11-10-2019, 10:26 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteZombie View Post
I would agree with others that it definitely doesn't have to be perfect timing or especially perfect throttle blip,
It's really no different from the lift-foot upshifts that everybody nearly always make. Just that instead of letting the revs drop back to where they need to be, you're kicking them up. I've never heard of anybody worrying about getting perfect rev matches on their upshifts.


Quote:
I would also think that most people's toe/ball of foot is going to be a lot more pressure sensitive/controllable than a heel, and thus would be much better to modulate the brake with the more sensitive and finely controllable part of your foot.
This ^^^

Foot movement vs whole leg movement. Kind of like writing notes on a pad of paper with the usual hand/wrist movements vs trying to write them using only movements at the elbow and shoulder.


Quote:
It is SUPER rewarding once you start getting it, and you'll get much smoother/faster/nicer to the car too.
I'm sure. I can tell you that just getting the smooth rev-match part down is pretty satisfying even if you aren't getting the brake pedal involved.


Quote:
8 years into tracking, and my biggest challenge is still modulating the maximum threshold brake pressure smoothly with my toe, while rotating to hit the gas with my heel area. Often times I will momentarily (accidentally) release a bit of brake pedal pressure when rotating my foot to blip the throttle until I'm warmed up and feeling comfortable.
I've never been able to get this thing down; my bigger concern has always been if I spiked the brake pedal pressure up. Especially with moderately high-mu (or higher) brake pads. An unexpected ABS event on the track would be one thing. Having it happen in street driving out of "muscle memory" would be quite another.

Quote:
FWIW, I'm typically tracking something other than a Subaru
Same here.


Norm

Last edited by Norm Peterson; 11-10-2019 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 11-10-2019, 11:01 AM   #13
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Old 11-21-2019, 07:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post

I've never been able to get this thing down; my bigger concern has always been if I spiked the brake pedal pressure up. Especially with moderately high-mu (or higher) brake pads. An unexpected ABS event on the track would be one thing. Having it happen in street driving out of "muscle memory" would be quite another.

Norm
I certainly have a tougher time with sticky track pads heel-toeing on the street, as the speeds and pedal pressures are typically much much lower, and brakes are "grabbier" .
In my big heavy track sled it's much eaiser/less grabby, especially halfway through the session when the brakes really have some heat in them and I'm almost standing on the pedal deep into the corner, haha.
A lot of folks on track tend to start braking much earlier than they need to, but with too low a pedal pressure, and then increasing pedal pressure only to let off the brakes and coast around a corner much slower than needed. That's understandable though, because it's exactly the way you'd taper your braking on the street.

At the track, wait just a little longer to brake, BRAKE HARD initially, and smoothly taper off the pedal as you initiate turn in to settle the car.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyChris View Post
I learned how to heel/toe with visual aids from Best Motoring from back in the day... A lot of their videos include an angle at the footwork being done.
^^^^^ My go to back in the day to try and understand the technique! ******FOOTWORK INTENSIFIES******
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Old 11-22-2019, 11:24 AM   #15
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I have a suspicion that heel-toe would be much easier with a floor-pivot gas pedal.


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Old 11-22-2019, 12:28 PM   #16
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Loud exhaust to help you hear the engine and practice practice practice.

It's a little different when you're on track, as the throttle blips are much more significant, but practicing the foot positioning and light throttle blips as I'm exiting the freeway or pulling up to stop signs made the motion much more second nature.

The sound is crucial to me though, because when I was entering the braking zone for China Beach at 120 mph and trying to heel-toe smoothly with the window down (HPDE rules), I had ZERO clue what my engine speed was and how much I needed to revise my throttle blips. The only feedback I got was the drivetrain jerking feeling from over or under revving, which would only matter if I was a good driver because I'd have upset the car's balance entering the corner.

The stock exhaust is dead silent when the wind is buffeting your face at high speeds.

Fortunately, I'm slow and new enough that my longer braking zones allowed me to settle the car before corner entry, post-driveline shock from a crappy heel-toe.
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Old 12-01-2019, 04:31 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by raisingAnarchy View Post
Loud exhaust to help you hear the engine and practice practice practice.

It's a little different when you're on track, as the throttle blips are much more significant, but practicing the foot positioning and light throttle blips as I'm exiting the freeway or pulling up to stop signs made the motion much more second nature.

The sound is crucial to me though, because when I was entering the braking zone for China Beach at 120 mph and trying to heel-toe smoothly with the window down (HPDE rules), I had ZERO clue what my engine speed was and how much I needed to revise my throttle blips. The only feedback I got was the drivetrain jerking feeling from over or under revving, which would only matter if I was a good driver because I'd have upset the car's balance entering the corner.

The stock exhaust is dead silent when the wind is buffeting your face at high speeds.

Fortunately, I'm slow and new enough that my longer braking zones allowed me to settle the car before corner entry, post-driveline shock from a crappy heel-toe.
Yea i'm def practicing on the road. I'm sure the people behind me think i have epilepsy or something, because "smooth" is not something that comes to mind as i'm trying my hardest to concentrate. I have an issue with lifting my foot off the brake, my brain just does it.

I also can't press the brake pedal down far enough to get to the gas pedal. I'm running my track pads still and these things bite like no effing other (G-Loc). So to do it around town, i'm BARELY pressing the brake and having to blip the gas which blips the brake and the car jerks forward.

I think it would be easier if i had daily pads back in.

Looking at getting the Verus spacer which allows left to right movement and brings the gas pedal an inch forward.

Or getting the Sparco pedals that you can bolt over the top of the stock ones that make the gas pedal wider might help too.

Nonetheless, some days i get it perfect, most i don't. I think the biggest issue i'll see is going 110mph into Sonoma T11 in 5th, and having to drop to 3rd. i can drop 1 gear but doing 2 may be a HUGE learning curve for me.
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Old 12-01-2019, 06:40 PM   #18
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I would think that most good opportunities to H-T "around town" involve the bleeding off of such small amounts of speed that you hardly need to be using any brake to begin with. That's been one of my observations, anyway.


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Old 12-01-2019, 08:02 PM   #19
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guess Im not understanding why drivers struggle with teh blipping??
Should put some seat time in an actual cart to hone the basics.
Also with a steering wheel... you can put a nice lil button within reach of your thumb to activate an auto blipper.
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:57 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by turboblew View Post
guess Im not understanding why drivers struggle with teh blipping??
You and me both.

Could be they're focusing on trying to get some sort of perfect rev match and holding the gas pedal there instead of just kicking the revs up and getting off the skinny pedal. Nobody seems to ever worry about matching revs on a lift-foot upshift, and throttle blipping amounts to basically the same thing.


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Old 12-02-2019, 04:26 PM   #21
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I don't think you guys are quite understanding the issue some have including myself. Holding the brake pedal consistently while reaching 3" over where the gas pedal is almost 2" depth wise away , blipping the throttle, all while keep the same consistency on the brake pedal.

Thats the issue.

My 6yr niece old can rev match while downshifting.

What's even harder, as explained in my recent post, is practicing while daily driving. Since i drive the speed limit, there's not much brake application that is needed around town. As with such LIGHT brake application, keeping that consistent while reaching over and blipping the throttle which is 3" over and 2" more towards the floor, is a touch difficult.

Now, maxing out the brake pedal on the track while going 110mph into a turn, where the brake pedal does not have much more to give, reaching over and blipping the gas pedal that is now in-line, depth wise, with the brake pedal, is going to be easier (in theory) than daily driving where you're putting a feather's weight worth of pressure on the brake pedal.
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Old 12-07-2019, 09:54 PM   #22
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all due respect but trying to practice closed course techniques on the street is never a good idea.
The car club racers I know put alot of time in simulators at home, when away from the track. Even if there were months between outtings... they are able to keep sharp and getting up to speed in the car is pretty painless.
I believe its Iracing. The simulators can cost a whole bunch depending on how serious you plan to get. But as far as seat time & convenience it cant be beat. Also you can hone a whole bunch of techniques w/o much risk... which is another plus.
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Old 12-08-2019, 08:56 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by turboblew View Post
all due respect but trying to practice closed course techniques on the street is never a good idea.
I wouldn't say 'never' or 'none of the techniques, ever'. You can get a pretty good sense of the throttle-blipping part of H-T without involving the brake or putting anybody at risk.

And you can condition yourself to following a proper racing line through curves and corners on the street . . . obviously doing this within the limits of lane width.


Quote:
The car club racers I know put alot of time in simulators at home, when away from the track. Even if there were months between outtings... they are able to keep sharp and getting up to speed in the car is pretty painless.
I believe its Iracing. The simulators can cost a whole bunch depending on how serious you plan to get. But as far as seat time & convenience it cant be beat. Also you can hone a whole bunch of techniques w/o much risk... which is another plus.
iRacing is exactly what you're thinking of and I know of at least one person on a different car forum who uses it.

My advice to anybody even thinking about getting involved with such simulations is to try them out several times first.



I know if I had to prove driving competence on a simulator, they wouldn't just refuse to let me out on the track, they'd probably call the nearest DMV office to have my driver's license revoked on the spot (I really am that bad). For me, the 'feel' is all wrong even in a higher-end simulator than you'd find at the consumer level.


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Old 12-09-2019, 01:11 PM   #24
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One thing about the aftermarket pedals that are wider, had them in my wrx. When I was wearing wider shoes (boots) it was pretty easy to accidentally catch the edge of the gas pedal when braking. I mean I know that's the point, but it made for some embarrassing accidental engine revs when I was doing things like pulling into the grocery store.
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Old Yesterday, 02:56 PM   #25
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i use the left side of my foot to brake (sometimes what feels like only my big toe) and right half to "blip" the throttle.

i have many failed rev match downshifts under my belt (not enough "blip")...but many more good ones that feel so darn good, and must sound awesome if you're driving behind me.
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