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Old 08-26-2019, 12:52 PM   #51
dwf137
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It still wouldn't sell. If there is anything that I have learned over the years it's that car forum posters are the last opinions automakers should ever listen to if the goal is to actually sell cars and make profit. The small handful of people clamouring for these cars simply isn't enough to make bringing them over warranted. I know lots of you here think you speak for the masses but you don't. North Americans simply don't want these cars.
Not sure if you're referring to me or not, but I'm fully in recognition that I'm in a "niche"... although that "niche" in the US is likely larger than the same "niche" in any other country that these vehicles are available. It's the US based executives that want to guide everyone into the same car. Other countries seem to be a bit more into the whole "options and choices" thing.

Can't wait for a changing of the guard of US executives. These baby boomers need to ****ing retire already.
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Old 08-26-2019, 02:50 PM   #52
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It still wouldn't sell. If there is anything that I have learned over the years it's that car forum posters are the last opinions automakers should ever listen to if the goal is to actually sell cars and make profit. The small handful of people clamouring for these cars simply isn't enough to make bringing them over warranted. I know lots of you here think you speak for the masses but you don't. North Americans simply don't want these cars.
Yes, *MOST* North Americans don't want wagons; especially expensive ones.
But, *SOME*, albeit a small minority, do purchase wagons and expensive ones at that.
If it really made zero business sense to bring wagons over here, we would have had exactly zero wagons on offer.
There must be, at the very least, some strategic benefit/advantage to go through the hassle of bringing and federelizing these allegedly unwanted machines, IMO.
Just for reference, we still have:
- MB E63
- MB E400/E450
- Jag XF Sportbrake (probably on it's way out though)
- Volvo V60/V90
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Old 08-26-2019, 03:03 PM   #53
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Buick Regal TourX (No one buying because Buick) too. If they branded it as a Chevy, I bet it would have sold better.

--kC
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Old 08-26-2019, 03:11 PM   #54
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Buick Regal TourX (No one buying because Buick) too. If they branded it as a Chevy, I bet it would have sold better.

--kC
Wanted to add it to the list; but Buick felt like they needed to add cladding to give it that Outback/Allroad look.
But, I agree, as far as I'm concerned, it's a wagon and it's very affordable; ride height is only 5.7" and that's a plus.
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Old 08-26-2019, 06:30 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
Yes, *MOST* North Americans don't want wagons; especially expensive ones.
But, *SOME*, albeit a small minority, do purchase wagons and expensive ones at that.
If it really made zero business sense to bring wagons over here, we would have had exactly zero wagons on offer.
There must be, at the very least, some strategic benefit/advantage to go through the hassle of bringing and federelizing these allegedly unwanted machines, IMO.
Just for reference, we still have:
- MB E63
- MB E400/E450
- Jag XF Sportbrake (probably on it's way out though)
- Volvo V60/V90
The V60 and V90 are technically only available as special orders. What you typically find on the lots are the CC versions.
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Old 08-26-2019, 09:24 PM   #56
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Quite a few of each V60/V90 up here in New England.

--kC
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Old 08-26-2019, 09:31 PM   #57
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2 at the dealer 5 min away from me. both fwd though.

https://www.volvocarswaukesha.com/ne...anchor-model-2
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Old 08-26-2019, 11:09 PM   #58
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Quite a few of each V60/V90 up here in New England.

--kC
I was about to say the same; I notice that Volvo no longer offer the 316-hp T6 engine with V60.
It looks like MY2019 is the last year for getting that V60 T6 AWD.
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Old 08-27-2019, 10:42 AM   #59
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On top of being better, americans are extremely humble about it.

Seriously though... when you compare the antiquated US standards to the much more up-to-date EU standards, it's a complete shame that we can't pull our head out of our ass.

I looked into why the cool dynamic tail lights available on the Golf R in other countries cannot be sold in the US... For one, the dynamic turn signal exists in a gray area (that ford exploits with the sequential signals on the mustang), but the other is that the brake lights in the US are based on size. In Europe it's based on actual light output. It's just too american for our standards to be based on size instead of actual light output... So obsessed with SIZE.
Replace your brake lights with very bright LEDs and I always make the third center brake light LED that will flash if I pump the brake pedal to wake up the dream and drive people.
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Old 08-27-2019, 12:31 PM   #60
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There's one V60 and zero V90 within 100 miles of me but 32 V60 and V90 in CC flavor.
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Old 08-27-2019, 12:47 PM   #61
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Replace your brake lights with very bright LEDs and I always make the third center brake light LED that will flash if I pump the brake pedal to wake up the dream and drive people.
I ended up installing the dynamic tails on my R. They were pricey, but F it. Used them in front of multiple police officers, either they didn't care, or they were too busy to pull me over, but I haven't been bothered. Not a fan of those flashing 3rd brake lights, although I had one on my motorcycle and it made me feel better. If I'm in a situation where I think I could get rear-ended (quick stop, or just in front of someone that I can see is distracted), I pop my flashers until I feel the risk is gone.
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Old 08-27-2019, 08:27 PM   #62
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I was about to say the same; I notice that Volvo no longer offer the 316-hp T6 engine with V60.
It looks like MY2019 is the last year for getting that V60 T6 AWD.
Yeah, I saw that. Want a rare one? Find a '19 R Design T6 AWD. I was waiting until Dec to buy, but if there's none on the lots, and 2020 is FWD only, it's a no go for me. Don't want a CC.

Looks like Volvo (no AWD) and Alfa (Closing dealers left & right) are pushing me into a Genesis G70 AWD.

--kC
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Old 08-29-2019, 12:00 PM   #63
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Yeah, I saw that. Want a rare one? Find a '19 R Design T6 AWD. I was waiting until Dec to buy, but if there's none on the lots, and 2020 is FWD only, it's a no go for me. Don't want a CC.

Looks like Volvo (no AWD) and Alfa (Closing dealers left & right) are pushing me into a Genesis G70 AWD.

--kC
Ah, ah, I'll see your '19 R Design T6 AWD and I raise you one with the incredibly rare $200 Sport chassis option .
More seriously, I thought we would still be able to get MY2020 V60 T5 with AWD; if not, that really blows.
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Old 08-29-2019, 02:28 PM   #64
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Clearly Americans like driving top-heavy SUV/CUVís that drive like theyíre going to tip over through every turn on the road. I canít stand driving my wifeís Ford Edge. I practically get sick just leaving the neighborhood.


This is what Americanís want...
Same opinion. We are all stuck with the herd does, with vehicles, with everything, it sucks. This constant push of mainstreaming pushed on everyone. So many buy into it. Individualism used to be an American thing. Now it's McSame.
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Old 08-29-2019, 02:53 PM   #65
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I prefer driving my Legacy to the Tiguan. It's tippy dippy juttery and rides more like the GTI than my Legacy with the 19" wheels and Contis. But it also slows me down on surface street driving and is awesome on the highway. Still grab the LGT's keys first tho. Something about the BL/BP Legacy floaty low to the ground ride and power surge that makes me get up in the morning. CUV's simply can't replace a proper wagon. And $120k sport wagons can't replace $38k sport wagons. Sorry Audi.
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Old 08-29-2019, 03:12 PM   #66
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Same opinion. We are all stuck with the herd does, with vehicles, with everything, it sucks. This constant push of mainstreaming pushed on everyone. So many buy into it. Individualism used to be an American thing. Now it's McSame.
Let's blame the right people though... it's the US executives. Automobile manufacturers are offering LOTS of options when you look at their global offerings. What the US executives decide to offer to us, that's another story. I truly believe that US consumers WANT more choice, but as the US executives put up the cattle chutes, people are forced to follow.

Remember, performance is defined in the sedan segment.
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Old 09-03-2019, 10:14 AM   #67
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Yeah, I saw that. Want a rare one? Find a '19 R Design T6 AWD. I was waiting until Dec to buy, but if there's none on the lots, and 2020 is FWD only, it's a no go for me. Don't want a CC.

Looks like Volvo (no AWD) and Alfa (Closing dealers left & right) are pushing me into a Genesis G70 AWD.

--kC
My V60 test drive was in an R-Design T6 AWD. Sweet car! Best of luck finding one, there's gotta be something left out there
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Old 09-03-2019, 11:14 AM   #68
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Let's blame the right people though... it's the US executives. Automobile manufacturers are offering LOTS of options when you look at their global offerings. What the US executives decide to offer to us, that's another story. I truly believe that US consumers WANT more choice, but as the US executives put up the cattle chutes, people are forced to follow.

Remember, performance is defined in the sedan segment.
Yes and no. The American "enthusiast" knows of such things. General public does not. Here performance manythings going the way of the dodo. Most people here just don't care. Give em the new screen/tech and that's that.
The consumers have to say no, not buy, to force them to change. We see how that has played out. Look at Subaru, the Levorg, no hatch, etc. Many of US customers sent emails, called New Jersey, 4 years later, nothing. yet people lap the things up in 4 door model only. Truth is it's a 50/50 split of executives and the buyers here.

Individualism is decreasing across the US. I blame social media for some of that. Everyone wants to herd it.
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Old 09-03-2019, 12:44 PM   #69
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Yes and no. The American "enthusiast" knows of such things. General public does not. Here performance manythings going the way of the dodo. Most people here just don't care. Give em the new screen/tech and that's that.
The consumers have to say no, not buy, to force them to change. We see how that has played out. Look at Subaru, the Levorg, no hatch, etc. Many of US customers sent emails, called New Jersey, 4 years later, nothing. yet people lap the things up in 4 door model only. Truth is it's a 50/50 split of executives and the buyers here.

Individualism is decreasing across the US. I blame social media for some of that. Everyone wants to herd it.
You have a pretty poor outlook on society, and I'm not totally sure why.

Consumers can't just say "no"... when they want/need a new car, they go buy one from the stock that's available to them. When I need a new dishwasher, do I stomp my feet and say "no, I want this model that's available only in Australia. I refuse to buy one until that specific one is available!". No. I don't. I buy one that's available to me, even if there are better ones out there in this world. Most consumers do the same thing with cars. If manufactures only offer black and white, you can't just stomp your feet and magically green appears.

Nothing can change until manufacturers offer choice. Most manufactures are trimming their lines, but why? Are sales low? Perhaps comparatively, but instead of VW continuing to offer the alltrack/golf wagon, they're going to axe it. Even sales in the US were likely higher than many other countries where it is available, US executives decided that it wasn't worth it. They stripped US consumers of that option.

IMO, It's going to be a whole different ball game when the current executives finally step down.
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Old 09-03-2019, 02:34 PM   #70
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It's all in the numbers. The manufacturers are just making cars that meet demand. If the demand is for CUVs, then they'll build more of those, and divert resources that aren't as profitable (wagons, sports cars, manual transmissions...). Then it becomes a chicken/egg argument about whether the demand is the result of the supply (no wagons, therefore nobody buys them), or if the demand reflects the actual preferences of the people who are shopping. The safe bet is: don't even gamble on that question, just make more of what we know has a huge profit margin and sells well - CUVs and pickup trucks. Done, everybody gets to keep their jobs.

Sucks for us, it leaves us cherry picking the 10+ old, used cars for what we want. No warranties, a dwindling parts supply, and a pile of broken Harbor Freight tools in the garage. That's what it means to be an enthusiast these days.
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Old 09-03-2019, 03:00 PM   #71
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You have a pretty poor outlook on society, and I'm not totally sure why.

Consumers can't just say "no"... when they want/need a new car, they go buy one from the stock that's available to them. When I need a new dishwasher, do I stomp my feet and say "no, I want this model that's available only in Australia. I refuse to buy one until that specific one is available!". No. I don't. I buy one that's available to me, even if there are better ones out there in this world. Most consumers do the same thing with cars. If manufactures only offer black and white, you can't just stomp your feet and magically green appears.

Nothing can change until manufacturers offer choice. Most manufactures are trimming their lines, but why? Are sales low? Perhaps comparatively, but instead of VW continuing to offer the alltrack/golf wagon, they're going to axe it. Even sales in the US were likely higher than many other countries where it is available, US executives decided that it wasn't worth it. They stripped US consumers of that option.

IMO, It's going to be a whole different ball game when the current executives finally step down.
Completely agree, except for the last sentence. I highly doubt there will be some changing of the guard that'll change the automotive landscape. Their interest is in company performance (i.e. share prices, dividends, profits), not necessarily the product they represent. The next generation of executives are groomed on the current crop of executives. Some are completely better than others. For example, former Ford CEO Mullally, was the CEO of Boeing, and now on the BOD at Alphabet. He was suceeded by Fields which moved up the ranks through Ford and was CEO of Mazda when Ford owned them. He was quickly replaced by the Ford BODs. The current Ford CEO, Hackett, was CEO of a furniture company, was an interim athletic director at Michigan, and is still a board member of Northwestern Mutual and Steelcase. The point is, there is no real "group" of potential executives sitting on the sidelines waiting to replace the current crop. Executives come up through a company and/or move across companies all the time.
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Old 09-03-2019, 03:16 PM   #72
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You have a pretty poor outlook on society, and I'm not totally sure why.

Consumers can't just say "no"... when they want/need a new car, they go buy one from the stock that's available to them. When I need a new dishwasher, do I stomp my feet and say "no, I want this model that's available only in Australia. I refuse to buy one until that specific one is available!". No. I don't. I buy one that's available to me, even if there are better ones out there in this world. Most consumers do the same thing with cars. If manufactures only offer black and white, you can't just stomp your feet and magically green appears.

Nothing can change until manufacturers offer choice. Most manufactures are trimming their lines, but why? Are sales low? Perhaps comparatively, but instead of VW continuing to offer the alltrack/golf wagon, they're going to axe it. Even sales in the US were likely higher than many other countries where it is available, US executives decided that it wasn't worth it. They stripped US consumers of that option.

IMO, It's going to be a whole different ball game when the current executives finally step down.
It's a realistic view. Film, music, vehicles, McSame time. Are you not seeing the watering down of so many different things? My view on society is a realistic one. The outrage, "I'm OFFENDED", SJW, oh my. See DC's "Sticks and Stones" special. Twatter things being made national news. Idiocracy is here.

The reality, like I mentioned the WRX 4/5 door options, is real. If customers don't demand it, then they'll get bent. Manus will constantly want to push fewer models, less bespoke, less "individual" models = more profit.

And your fridge comparo is funny because most people here on our continent view the vehicle as an appliance. That's all it is. Seen appliances lately? I just did a few weeks ago. Busted my countertop weeks ago in the sling by dropping a plate on it while cooking one armed. A corner of it shattered so off to the BB to buy a replacement. LCD screens in the fridges, gizmos/bs, just like in the cars. Reality is enthusiasts are decreasing in numbers which is why you see less performance variants all the way around, well at least affordable ones. Motorcycle sales have tanked in recent years. Younger gen no care about riding bikes. Why? Phones, social media, streaming this or that. When phone time is #1 or social media applications are that important, why get into doing something that requires skill, dedication, and money? So if motorcycles are tanking, and millennials, many of them, don't even want to own a car, there will be less choices in the marketplace. Society is just turning into zombieland with everyone on their phone. How can we expect them to get into enthusiast anything when all their enthusiasm time is spent getting offended on the internet and complaining about it. My God if all the smartphones in the US went dead today, there would be mass suicide.
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Old 09-03-2019, 03:53 PM   #73
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I think, maybe, I no longer want the new C8 Corvette. This would be plenty fast and fun to fill the need for g's. It would also carry my mountain bike. Hmmmm...
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Old 09-03-2019, 04:58 PM   #74
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I think, maybe, I no longer want the new C8 Corvette. This would be plenty fast and fun to fill the need for g's. It would also carry my mountain bike. Hmmmm...
Yes, one car to rule them all. I agree 1000%.
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Old 09-03-2019, 05:28 PM   #75
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Completely agree, except for the last sentence. I highly doubt there will be some changing of the guard that'll change the automotive landscape.
I beg to differ; however I agree it's not going to be just a changing of the guard... it's likely to take place with one either new, or just plain innovative company to spin the industry around. Take a 10,000 ft look at how Musk has changed the discussions in the automotive industry. Not only in pushing for electric cars, but breaking the mold in the dealership model. It's going to take visionaries like him, but the generation that doesn't just fall in line with their predecessors is coming up fast. It's also going to take a massive tweak to the current NHTSA, imo, because manufactures are going to need to break free of a lot of the silly constraints that are currently placed on vehicle design.
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