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Old 09-28-2022, 05:09 PM   #1051
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my 2009 wrx was not 300 hp.

The GRC is not a replacement to your WRX. It's a replacement to that generation STI. The STI also lost in a drag race to your WRX. It's the same story here.

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And when we say "plenty," we mean it: the revised WRX now blasts to 60 mph from a standstill in an electrifying 4.7 seconds. That's 1.1 seconds quicker than the 2008 model-and get this-0.3 second quicker than we've managed in a WRX STI, the supposedly higher-performance version of the WRX. The fact that the WRX is now substantially quicker seems absolutely bonkers, but there are a couple of good explanations. First, the WRX STI weighs a hearty 180 pounds more than the base WRX, according to our scales. Second, the STI and its closer-ratio six-speed manual call for two shifts to 60, while the regular WRX's five speed hits 60 mph in second gear. By the time the pair travel a quarter-mile, the '09 WRX loses some ground, though; both cross the line at 102 mph, with the base Rex edging out the STI by just 0.1 second, 13.5 to 13.6.
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Old 09-28-2022, 05:33 PM   #1052
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The GRC is not a replacement to your WRX. It's a replacement to that generation STI. The STI also lost in a drag race to your WRX. It's the same story here.
So their target is a 14 year old car. Cool.

and yes I know all of those things.
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Old 09-28-2022, 06:48 PM   #1053
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So we forget that yes, previous iterations may of had a specific performance level, BUT did they have the tech? No. That being said, if the goal is to maintain pricepoint for a specific demographic, You will not be touching performance all that much due to "Everything else going into and offered" on said vehicle at specific price point. If we want (for ex) a WRX to nail a 4.6 or 4.5 0-60, That is not a "Starting at 30,000" car (CURRENTLY). That is the next bracket up. And at that point, you compete with the tech and amenities offered in the same Pricepoint of car. It becomes a vehicle that "Starts at 38-39 with Basic Interior." In fact Not Too Many would buy it due to the Lack thereof interior offerings. So the car would "Have to Have" a nicer interior starting off. Now youre talking about a WRX that "Starts at 42-43."
If the 4 second range is what you crave, it is simply the wrong car. Like I have said so many times before, You are wanting something like an Audi S3/4. Or even a SQ5.

Subaru's target market are predominantly the average young adult who may be nearing a Family lifestyle or are currently in one. Because there is a "Higher Population" of those people as opposed to older adults looking for a Saloon Car. And there is even a smaller demographic of Gear Heads looking for that sweet spot of Sporty Vehicle. Older adults hang on to their vehicles, You see them everywhere in 4-5 year old Mercedes or Half-ton trucks like GMC's Fords, etc. The amount of those nearing retirement age found in a Car like the WRX or GR corolla would be an abysmally low amount of the population.

Look at how many CRV's/Civics/Corollas/Accords/Camrys/etc you see on the road. That should be enough to partially explain what I mean. Predominantly Affordability is what matters, along with what we Want included in that specific segment. And you can only "Add so much" before it is no longer for said Segment.

Last edited by Russ_G93; 09-28-2022 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 09-28-2022, 07:21 PM   #1054
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So their target is a 14 year old car. Cool.

and yes I know all of those things.
Yes. And you also knew that because *wait for it* it has 300 hp and a manual gearbox.

The seemingly same reason you aren't impressed with the GRC was the same reason you opted for the WRX over the more expensive STI.
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Old 09-28-2022, 07:34 PM   #1055
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As I have pointed out before, account for inflation when making comparisons to old cars. In today's dollars, the GR Yaris with the basic performance package is 10k cheaper than the STI.

A gr core with diffs/brake package is essentially the same price as a WRX Premium from 2009 (after accounting for inflation).
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Old 09-28-2022, 07:36 PM   #1056
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If the 4 second range is what you crave, it is simply the wrong car. Like I have said so many times before, You are wanting something like an Audi S3/4. Or even a SQ5.
Hence why I bought a Golf R when I got rid of my 2009 wrx.

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Yes. And you also knew that because *wait for it* it has 300 hp and a manual gearbox.
still missing the point. It seems like every other car segment is getting faster except the japanese cheap tuner market. Yes, I get that they only put 300hp in it, but it's disappointing. It should be 350. This segment should have improved over the last 14 years. But it didn't. It's stagnant. It's disappointing. I was hoping that Toyota's entry to the market would shake things up, but instead all it did was create a new version of almost 15 year old cars.
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Old 09-28-2022, 08:08 PM   #1057
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[quote=dwf137;46782973]Hence why I bought a Golf R when I got rid of my 2009 wrx.

I actually really like the Golf R, Didn't get one though because a VW service shop is about 1.5hrs out. It seems like everyone like Ford (Mustang) is going for that sort of wrap around Cluster/infotainment like what Mercedes did early on. I think the white is what I would've considered, but its one of those cars that looks "complete" as in theres nothing exterior wise I'd want to do. I'd probably have to downsize the wheels for these mountain roads though. Im happy to know you love your car!
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Old 09-28-2022, 08:21 PM   #1058
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still missing the point. It seems like every other car segment is getting faster except the japanese cheap tuner market. Yes, I get that they only put 300hp in it, but it's disappointing. It should be 350. This segment should have improved over the last 14 years. But it didn't. It's stagnant. It's disappointing. I was hoping that Toyota's entry to the market would shake things up, but instead all it did was create a new version of almost 15 year old cars.
Are there a lot of 400 hp 4 cylinder turbos in other segments? CLA45 is $60k, can't think of anything else.

Yeah, the other segments get faster by using electric motors or turbo sixes, and by getting huge. The import compact isn't going to be compact or affordable if they go any of those routes. That leaves small turbo fours, and 300 hp is about the realistic limit.
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Old 09-28-2022, 08:34 PM   #1059
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This is 3 cylinders. 100 hp a cylinder and only 1.6 liters to accomplish it. For less than $40k in a hatchback with a bunch of diffs and big brakes and...never mind. Zero point.
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Old 09-28-2022, 09:11 PM   #1060
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This is 3 cylinders. 100 hp a cylinder and only 1.6 liters to accomplish it. For less than $40k in a hatchback with a bunch of diffs and big brakes and...never mind. Zero point.



OK. Now make that a 4 cyl with the appropriate power increase, THEN how much money will that be? The point is there's apparently a certain performance level cap at a certain price cap.......probably tied to the EPA junk they have to follow.


Want more? Sure!! Pay more!
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Old 09-28-2022, 10:51 PM   #1061
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My 2 cents regarding power:

Considering inflation, the GRC gives you a damn good bang for your buck. 300hp and a robust awd is FUN. In stock form my 04 STi was great and even better modded. The GR will be no different. Assuming the GR motor is as stout as they say, this thing will be an absolute riot when you mod it! Catless exhaust and tune will make it just about perfect (for me at least), I'm guessing on crappy CA 91 octane, an exhaust and tune will net ~ 260whp and 290ft-lbs on an honest low reading dyno (with the added satisfaction of Toyota relliability). That is FUN and all I need (injectors, fp, fmic and e85 wouldn't hurt either )

If you want to run 12's stock, the GRC is not the way Plenty of other options out there (for and added cost as well).
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Old 09-28-2022, 11:27 PM   #1062
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My 2 cents regarding power:

Considering inflation, the GRC gives you a damn good bang for your buck. 300hp and a robust awd is FUN. In stock form my 04 STi was great and even better modded. The GR will be no different. Assuming the GR motor is as stout as they say, this thing will be an absolute riot when you mod it! Catless exhaust and tune will make it just about perfect (for me at least), I'm guessing on crappy CA 91 octane, an exhaust and tune will net ~ 260whp and 290ft-lbs on an honest low reading dyno (with the added satisfaction of Toyota relliability). That is FUN and all I need (injectors, fp, fmic and e85 wouldn't hurt either )

If you want to run 12's stock, the GRC is not the way Plenty of other options out there (for and added cost as well).
Agreed with what you said except running catless. Just run a high flow cat on a street car.
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Old 09-29-2022, 12:18 AM   #1063
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Agreed with what you said except running catless. Just run a high flow cat on a street car.
Not gonna argue with that, hi-flow cat doesn't stink

Last edited by subenerd; 09-29-2022 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 09-29-2022, 03:51 AM   #1064
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We are betting that the Morizo torque, and perhaps the gearing, will make its way to the Core and whatever special edition equivalent will be (Circuit) in 2024. Same deal as the first MY Supra and after with the TQ bump.
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Old 09-29-2022, 08:08 AM   #1065
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We are betting that the Morizo torque, and perhaps the gearing, will make its way to the Core and whatever special edition equivalent will be (Circuit) in 2024. Same deal as the first MY Supra and after with the TQ bump.
That's my thought too - if the ratios are more optimized without hurting the EPA rating, and it uses the same turbo with a different tune (which it does), its essentially a "zero cost" improvement for the next Model year and/or refresh for Toyota.
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Old 09-29-2022, 10:31 AM   #1066
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still missing the point. It seems like every other car segment is getting faster except the japanese cheap tuner market. Yes, I get that they only put 300hp in it, but it's disappointing. It should be 350. This segment should have improved over the last 14 years. But it didn't. It's stagnant. It's disappointing. I was hoping that Toyota's entry to the market would shake things up, but instead all it did was create a new version of almost 15 year old cars.
The Golf R's acceleration advantage is largely due to the DSG and launch control. The manual versions are no quicker than EVO's and STI's in the day. The limiting factor in the sport compact segment is displacement. There's only so much reliable power you can make out of a small displacement 4-cylinder engine or in the case of this car 3-cylinder. That AMG 4-cylinder is ridiculously expensive to build and should not ever be included in discussions of cars that are attainable to average consumers. There is a reason those rumours of 350-400 HP STI's were always laughable and it's because it's simply too expensive to make 4-cylinder engines strong enough to handle that type of power reliably. The only way to make cars in this segment faster is to equip them with more cylinders and as we have seen with the RS3, even adding just one more cylinder totally upsets the balance of the car and makes it an understeering pig.
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Old 09-29-2022, 12:02 PM   #1067
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need

My cars need to have enough hp to move themselves out of the way. They also need a fast and responsive tranny.
Merging to the highway here is dangerous. On ramps are very short and missing the cut means you cause an accident behind yourself, or hit the bridge right in front.
Even in other places, my rentals had CVT trannies and almost got hit because of the rubber band effect. SUV didnt move till it spun enough to put power down.

After driving a 460+hp 911, I needs it!!

My Kia Sportage with whatever the 2.4l engine has is enough for a family vehicle though. Meets my requirements
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Old 09-29-2022, 12:32 PM   #1068
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Toyota is conservative and kept this power rating for the G16 for EPA/CAFE. I mean there is a company that just built a 900 whp version of this 3 cylinder motor. The possibilities in the aftermarket via tune, bolt-ons, etc, is there.


https://lamspeedracing.com/products/...-gts-turbo-kit

Last edited by Pre; 09-29-2022 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 09-29-2022, 12:56 PM   #1069
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Are there a lot of 400 hp 4 cylinder turbos in other segments? CLA45 is $60k, can't think of anything else.

Yeah, the other segments get faster by using electric motors or turbo sixes, and by getting huge. The import compact isn't going to be compact or affordable if they go any of those routes. That leaves small turbo fours, and 300 hp is about the realistic limit.
The top trim of the GRC costs 50K BEFORE ADM.

At the base price, sure it's acceptable, I guess. But at 50K+?
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Old 09-29-2022, 01:12 PM   #1070
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The top trim of the GRC costs 50K BEFORE ADM.
At the base price, sure it's acceptable, I guess. But at 50K+?
It (the GRC Morizo) is worth the money to someone who wants a limited run car.
The core is the value/volume option, which is fine for most with the diff package; the CE is where I'd land, it's a loaded core with better interior and exterior differences, I don't do cloth & would spec most if not all packages anyway, so the CE is worth the extra money to me.
Morizo is not worth it to me, for that money (likely more) I'm buying a Rear drive coupe platform with more cylinders.

How much was the S209 again?

On the CLA45 - the cheapest one I could find was 59k, but it was an outlier, mid-60s to 70k is what is common, with some 80k outliers.

Unless you order one with no options, you're getting option$.
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Old 09-29-2022, 01:53 PM   #1071
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The top trim of the GRC costs 50K BEFORE ADM.

At the base price, sure it's acceptable, I guess. But at 50K+?
The Core is the same performance as the Circuit.

Core w/Cold weather package (heated seats and steering wheel), tech package (JBL 8 speaker sound system and Qi wireless charging), and the the Performance Package (Torsen front and rear diffs, red calipers/brake ducts) is $39.3k. That's pretty solid value. My RS, which was bought $500 below invoice was $37.5k in 2017. It's 2022, post pandemic but still will chip/supply shortages, and inflated prices due to these facts. $37.5k to $39.3k is nothing given current situation/life.

The Morizo is a purpose built track car with chassis bracing, rear seat delete, additional welds, different suspension, forged wheels, TQ increase, shorter gearing, Cup tires, etc. 200 examples only will be built. It's the RA or S209 equivalent and how much was that S209?

Man this is old at this point. The Golf R is 45k. I'll take the loaded core GRC for $6k less.

Last edited by Pre; 09-29-2022 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 09-29-2022, 02:15 PM   #1072
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I'm trying to talk my wife into ordering that exact spec (Core with the packages). It will be her fun manual car that will replace the creampuff 2.5RS she didn't want to sell to park next to her other fun car that will eventually replace the GTI but won't be here for another 18 months.
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Old 09-29-2022, 03:31 PM   #1073
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I'm trying to talk my wife into ordering that exact spec (Core with the packages). It will be her fun manual car that will replace the creampuff 2.5RS she didn't want to sell to park next to her other fun car that will eventually replace the GTI but won't be here for another 18 months.
Happy wife, happy life! At least sheís not swapping Escalades for Range Rovers.
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Old 09-29-2022, 08:18 PM   #1074
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The top trim of the GRC costs 50K BEFORE ADM.

At the base price, sure it's acceptable, I guess. But at 50K+?
Who cares? Itís extreme low volume and thereís two other trims.
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Old 09-29-2022, 08:21 PM   #1075
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I'm trying to talk my wife into ordering that exact spec (Core with the packages). It will be her fun manual car that will replace the creampuff 2.5RS she didn't want to sell to park next to her other fun car that will eventually replace the GTI but won't be here for another 18 months.
I might do that as well if my wife commutes when we get back to the US. But more likely itíll be me commuting.
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