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Old 03-27-2019, 12:08 AM   #51
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Default Second-generation Toyota GT86 greenlighted by Bosses

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Originally Posted by hkerekes View Post
220hp as a base model but why cant they option it up to a high hp engine.

You can option a 4 door sedan to 300+ hp
Why not a sports coupe?

This **** isnt an economy car. When you can get just about everything with 300 hp why not the only 2 door light weight rwd sports coupe.

HP sells to everyone. OMG muh chassis and weight and balance only sells to a select few.


They are selling ~7000/yr right now between the two cars in the US. If they offer a bigger power version for more money (realistically would be $30k without the performance package), that maybe converts 2000 current buyers to the bigger engine version and adds maybe another 2000 buyers because, ultimately, the Mustang and Camaro will still offer a more practical car with more power for less money. And Americans want the most power for the least money. The BRZ will never match that economy of scale. Is it worth federalizing a new engine when it is going to cannibalize 2000 current sales and only add 2000 more? A second engine doesn’t exist because the business case isn’t there. The 2.0L makes sense as a world car because it sneaks in below the threshold for a lot of global displacement taxes and is just powerful enough to make just enough sense in all markets.

Subaru can offer multiple engines of a 4 door sedan because a 4 door sedan is just practical enough to be driven by the wannabe race car dad, the recent college grad, and about any other person that doesn’t have 3+ kids. That is the real problem with the 86. The demographics that it fits are DINKs and empty nesters... and the empty nesters are too old to crawl in and out of it and they’d rather have their automatic SS or GT instead anyway. A car the size of the BRZ without the cult following of the pony cars will never reach the volume required to make multiple engines make business sense in the US. And I haven’t even gotten into the fact that it shares assembly lines with the money printing Crosstrek. Would you develop a new variant of the BRZ that will maybe make a little more money if it means you will build 2000 fewer money making Crosstreks? Capacity constraints + small car in a CUV hungry market = we’re getting a world car if anything at all.
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Old 03-27-2019, 12:12 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkerekes View Post
220hp as a base model but why cant they option it up to a high hp engine.

You can option a 4 door sedan to 300+ hp
Why not a sports coupe?

This **** isnt an economy car. When you can get just about everything with 300 hp why not the only 2 door light weight rwd sports coupe.

HP sells to everyone. OMG muh chassis and weight and balance only sells to a select few.
I just bought an M2. I’m heavily debating selling it for a low mileage E46 M3. Sometimes power becomes too much for a steeet driven car and ruins the balance. If you want a high horsepower brz, buy the ****ing Supra.
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Old 03-27-2019, 10:24 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by KC View Post
Tail of the dragon is in NC. The Snake is on Mulholland.

Can't wait for August where I'll be working in Port Hueneme for a week. My rentals always get a workout. 2 years ago in the Camaro was really good.

--kC
Yeah, I really miss driving the canyons. I'm planning to retire in Socal so will be looking forward to living out there again.
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Old 03-27-2019, 10:28 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
Everyone keeps talking about the horsepower...

It doesn't need horsepower, it needs torque and a flat torque band. Give it 200 ftlbs and somewhere from 200-250hp and it will be amazing.
Only 200lbs-ft? Hummm.. Yeah, I suppose since the MX5 is like 2300lbs if the next gen can be less weight (inline with the ND) that could make sense.
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Old 03-27-2019, 02:45 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
If you want a high horsepower brz, buy the ****ing Supra.
I'd rather buy 2 twins and duct tape them together for less money. Also, the e46 doesn't feel anemic. Not as powerful as some cars? Sure. Feeling in desperate need of power to pass the minivan mom when trying to merge? Not at all.
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Old 03-27-2019, 03:49 PM   #56
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I highly doubt they'll change the looks all that much.
That would be big mistake. The styling on the Datsun/Nissan 240Z made the car. I remember the first time seeing one and everyone one else was awestruck such a great looking car. Its really what made it sell so well. The car had Ferrari good looks. Time to cut loose great designs as economy cooling fast now.
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Old 03-27-2019, 04:41 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by BeepBoop View Post
I'd rather buy 2 twins and duct tape them together for less money. Also, the e46 doesn't feel anemic. Not as powerful as some cars? Sure. Feeling in desperate need of power to pass the minivan mom when trying to merge? Not at all.
I think you entirely missed the point and didn’t read the entire post.
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Old 03-27-2019, 04:47 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
I just bought an M2. I’m heavily debating selling it for a low mileage E46 M3. Sometimes power becomes too much for a steeet driven car and ruins the balance. If you want a high horsepower brz, buy the ****ing Supra.
Agreed - because the 600lb weight gain and loss of a third pedal doesn't matter when it comes to driving or enjoying the car, not even a little.
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Old 03-27-2019, 09:31 PM   #59
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^^ Hahaha, funny guy. You're absolutely right, no place for a BRZ in the midwest to make any sense, thus I do not own one or care to. However, I do travel a lot and know the LA area very well (Malibu area with canyons) where there are many winding roads including some tight roads similar to a touge. Not to forget the tail of the dragon.

I would not be surprised if a Honda Fit with light mods could keep up with the BRZ on the winding roads going down hill.
Having owned a 15 Fit and a 13 BRZ I can tell you I seriously doubt it. The Fit is really overrated and I could not wait to sell it. I mean it has a lot of space but the rest of the car is not very good. The manual gearbox is not even close to the BRZ, it's sloppy, has long throws, and very vague. It weighs barely less than the BRZ but is way down on power. It's really slow even when ringing it out.

But I scored a deal on it used and actually made $1K selling it after only driving it year. It's a good car for a new driver but its overhyped.
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Old 03-27-2019, 11:50 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by thill View Post
Having owned a 15 Fit and a 13 BRZ I can tell you I seriously doubt it. The Fit is really overrated and I could not wait to sell it. I mean it has a lot of space but the rest of the car is not very good. The manual gearbox is not even close to the BRZ, it's sloppy, has long throws, and very vague. It weighs barely less than the BRZ but is way down on power. It's really slow even when ringing it out.

But I scored a deal on it used and actually made $1K selling it after only driving it year. It's a good car for a new driver but its overhyped.
way off topic. herm...…aren't fits cable shifted transmissions...
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Old 03-28-2019, 12:23 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
I think you entirely missed the point and didn't read the entire post.
I'm not sure I did. You seem to say that a higher HP twin might upset its balance and also that there is a higehr HP twin available if you want it (the supra).

1) the supra is overpriced garbage, hence my comment about buying two twins for the price of one supra.

2) the twins feel pathetically slow compared to an e46 m3. They wouldn't lose anything by gaining 100 horse power. Also, there is no such thing as "too much power" for the road IMO. I've been in 500hp evos that felt just fine and were a hoot.
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Old 10-21-2021, 03:24 AM   #62
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Since the BRZ thread is locked, I'll post this here:

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Old 10-21-2021, 03:31 PM   #63
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0-60 5.3
14.0 @ 100 mph

Not bad, not bad at all.
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Old 04-04-2022, 02:27 PM   #64
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Toyota GR 86 is going racing with one-make series
The American series starts next year
https://www.autoblog.com/2022/04/04/...racing-series/

Quote:
The Toyota GR 86 is following in the footsteps of the Mazda MX-5 once again. First it offered an alternative for an affordable, rear-drive sports car, now it's getting its own racing series. It's called the GR Cup, and it starts up next year.

The series is being run by Toyota Gazoo Racing North America, and will feature seven races at locations across the U.S. The series will only feature GR 86 models, all of the same specification. A teaser image suggests that the race cars will get some aerodynamic aids in addition to the typical set of safety equipment such as a roll cage.

"These race efforts are not simply designed to build fans for Toyota vehicles and the GR Brand, but to allow learnings on the track to make ever better vehicles for the road by Toyota engineers," Toyota said in a press release.

Toyota also touted the closeness of racing from a one-make series, as well as the focus on driver skill. But a likely benefit Toyota left out is that this will probably be a relatively affordable racing series to enter. Based on the image, the cars are probably close to stock, and keeping modifications restricted should all keep costs down for people looking for a gateway into racing, much like the Mazda MX-5 Cup.
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Old 04-04-2022, 04:33 PM   #65
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Will they sell Cup cars from the factory like Mazda and Porsche does? I wouldn't mind one of those
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Old 04-04-2022, 04:54 PM   #66
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Seriously, who let someone interesting make decisions for Toyota? They are absolutely dominating the enthusiast market this year.
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Old 05-31-2022, 03:46 AM   #67
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Default 2022 Subaru BRZ vs. Toyota GR86: Sports Car Brothers

2022 Subaru BRZ vs. Toyota GR86: Sports Car Brothers From the Same Mother

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There is something slightly absurd about trying to choose between the 2022 Subaru BRZ and 2022 Toyota GR86 sports cars. After all, these coupes are virtually the same, sharing engines, transmissions, structures, and more. And with affordable rear-wheel-drive sports cars not exactly spilling forth from today's automakers, placing either of these in "last place" feels like a disservice to the noble cause of ensuring such vehicles remain available. The answer to the question of whether to buy a BRZ or a GR86 should be: yes.


The more nuanced answer comes with another question: What do you plan on using your relatively cheap, rear-drive Toyota/Subaru sports car for, exactly? Will you spend most of your time on the street, or are you looking forward to often visiting autocross events or racetracks, where lap times and consistency matter? To help you choose between these seemingly identical coupes, we gathered up manual-transmission versions of both, and drove—and tested—them head-to-head.

What's New And What's Different?

Building on the original Subaru BRZ's and Toyota 86's compelling shared formula, the 2022 models remain lightweight, rear-wheel drive, and wonderfully affordable. Both swap their 2.0-liter engines for new 2.4-liter units producing 228 hp and 184 lb-ft of torque. Each car also benefits from new body-stiffening measures, updated styling, and upgraded interiors. How are they different? Subaru and Toyota install their own headlights and bumpers, with the BRZ adopting a few more creases, vents, and such on its nose compared with the GR86's cleaner appearance. Toyota also gives the GR86's rear a more pronounced ducktail spoiler that, on the up-level Premium model we tested here, is even taller.


Tuning-wise, the Subaru BRZ and Toyota GR86 diverge more widely than before, lending each model a distinct character you feel when driving them back-to-back. Toyota stuck with the old 86's rear suspension setup, or at least the basics, keeping that car's subframe-mounted anti-roll bar and more playful spring rates. Subaru changed more underneath the BRZ, going with stiffer front springs (by 7 percent) and softer rears (by 11 percent) compared with the Toyota, as well as installing a 1mm-thinner rear anti-roll bar and mounting it directly to the BRZ's body. Add in a hollow front anti-roll bar and aluminum front knuckles, and the Subie's firmer front end delivers more neutral balance. The Toyota's tail is more willing to step out, and does so more gradually than on the Subaru, which can feel snappier at its limit.

It's The Handling, Stupid

We can (and will, don't worry) run through all our test numbers and compare which one is better by different objective measures, but the suspension setups are hands-down the biggest differentiators here. What better baseline could we ask for than for both of our test cars to weigh within 5 pounds of one another and ride on their available Michelin Pilot Sport 4 summer tires (relegated to the GR86's Premium trim and the BRZ's Limited model), leveling the playing field where the rubber literally meets the road?

Despite the identical power, weight, and tire offerings of each, the Toyota GR86 just edged out the BRZ at the test track, posting higher grip on the skidpad (0.98 g vs. 0.93) and reaching 60 mph 0.1 second quicker, in 5.8 seconds. On our figure-eight course, the GR86 was a full second quicker. Providing a hint of its stiffer front end, the Subaru stopped from 60 mph 1 foot shorter than the Toyota, in a solid 107 feet, its only objective dynamic win over the GR86, though both models suffered from brake fade during our track session. Upgrade the pads or fluid or both—or perhaps find a way to introduce more cooling to the existing brakes—if you plan on participating in a track day.

The BRZ is no slouch, of course, but consistency is its forte. With its more planted rear end, the Subaru is easily the more reliable lap-time partner of the two. In the Toyota, you'll have too much fun to care much about lap times, though it'll out-perform the BRZ if you're willing to exercise your skills a little more. That's because the GR86's butt slides around a lot more, but its movement is telegraphed to the driver's southern cheeks, allowing even novices to easily approach and cross over the grip threshold at sub-felony speeds. In short, overcook things in the Toyota and it's easy to reign the tail back in.


In the Subaru, recoveries take a little more attention; though its tail hangs in there longer, it lets go less gradually. Think of it this way: The BRZ's ultimate rear-end grip is like the GR86's, but with a narrower window between having that grip and losing it. You can drift the BRZ, but it takes more precise steering and throttle inputs from more experienced pilots to get there and stay on that edge. In both cars, by the way, there is an in-between stability-control setting and a full-off option right there on the center console.

In Between The Numbers

Now that we've covered what separates the 2022 Toyota GR86 and 2022 Subaru BRZ, let's build these two sports cars back up with the greatness they share. The new 2.4-liter engine is a highlight, largely eliminating the old 2.0-liter's odd torque drop-off in the middle of the rev range, and delivering notably better torque and noise. You can forget the old cars' rattly, tractor-like sound; the new engine speaks in a more guttural voice and revs more eagerly.

The standard six-speed manual transmission delivers better feel and more positive engagement, and the driving position in both cars—a highlight before—remains perfect. You sit legs-out, square to the small-rimmed steering wheel, and the pedals are located for easy heel-toe downshifting. With their newly stiffened bodies and nicer interiors, the BRZ and GR86 are far more livable daily, though the Toyota rides a smidge smoother. Road noise is reduced drastically, and though both sports cars greet bumps and expansion joints firmly, their structures absorb impacts better than before.

Can you fit anyone in the rear seats? Not really, unless they're children or legless, but you can still fold those rear seats down and shoehorn a full spare set of wheels and tires (mounted, of course) between the back seat area and trunk. For people seated up front, the experience in the new-generation BRZ and GR86 is much nicer, with higher-quality materials, better touchscreens, and a nifty new gauge cluster with a configurable digital display. BRZ Limited and GR86 Premium models come standard with niceties such as heated seats, aluminum pedals, and an eight-speaker audio system on top of the base models' dual-zone automatic climate control, leather-wrapped steering wheel and shift boot, and standard limited-slip differential.

So, What'll You Use 'Em For?

Having outlined the advantages and disadvantages of the Subaru and Toyota, we'll repeat that your use case should determine which one you buy. But because it's our job to choose one over the other—we don't do ties in two-way comparison tests—we select the GR86. We picked it over the BRZ at our 2022 Car of the Year competition, voting the Toyota into the finalist round because we preferred its on-road hooliganism to the BRZ's more stoic handling behavior.

Simply put, you can slither the GR86 all over your favorite back road without breaking the speed limit, and have a riot doing so, as you enjoy a more comfortable ride and—we know this is subjective—better looks. Oh, and did we mention the Toyota costs slightly less than the Subaru?

If your designs for an affordable sports car include track days, autocross events, and the like, pick the BRZ. We preferred the Subaru on the racetrack over the GR86 in our 2022 Performance Vehicle of the Year competition precisely because of, well, its precision, though we ultimately matched our Car of the Year pick and voted the GR86 into the finalist round. The more planted chassis will serve track-lappers and those attending timed events better, though you'll pay for it with less daily comfort and less playfulness in everyday driving.


2nd PLACE
2022 Subaru BRZ Limited

PROS
Stable rear end
Same power upgrades as GR86
The better choice for track days


CONS
Noisier, firmer ride
Sharper rear-end breakaway
Pricier than the GR86
Verdict
The slightly less fun of two impressively fun-focused sports cars.


1st PLACE
2022 TOYOTA GR86 PREMIUM

PROS
Accessible handling
Cleaner styling
Better ride

CONS
The ducktail-spoiler look isn't for everyone
Driftiness isn't as lap-time-friendly
The less serious of the two cars

VERDICT
If you're considering a car like this, why not go all-in on the fun factor and not worry so much about lap times?

POWERTRAIN/CHASSIS 2022 Subaru BRZ Specifications 2022 Toyota GR86

Specifications

DRIVETRAIN LAYOUT Front-engine, RWD

ENGINE TYPE Port- and direct-injected DOHC 16-valve flat-4, alum
block/heads

DISPLACEMENT 2,387 cc/145.7 cu in

Motor Trend
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Old 06-01-2022, 11:50 AM   #68
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Old 06-01-2022, 11:54 AM   #69
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They're grrrreat
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Old 06-01-2022, 11:59 AM   #70
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It's already difficult to get one, why come out with a special edition already?

trying to decide when I want to approach a local dealer to get in line for one...
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Old 06-01-2022, 12:15 PM   #71
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It's already difficult to get one, why come out with a special edition already?

trying to decide when I want to approach a local dealer to get in line for one...
If you want one of these, you should head to your dealer soon, like a few months ago. Only deal if they'll do a no strings attached refundable deposit, then you can bail any time if you change your mind. You'll have lots of time to decide assuming you don't want a base auto.
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Old 06-01-2022, 12:54 PM   #72
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If you want one of these, you should head to your dealer soon, like a few months ago. Only deal if they'll do a no strings attached refundable deposit, then you can bail any time if you change your mind. You'll have lots of time to decide assuming you don't want a base auto.
I don't want a special edition... And I'm in no real rush. I wouldn't be disappointed to wait until MY24. MY25 might even be a bit more reasonable with my timeline. Hoping by then things will have calmed down.
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Old 06-01-2022, 01:03 PM   #73
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I don't want a special edition... And I'm in no real rush. I wouldn't be disappointed to wait until MY24. MY25 might even be a bit more reasonable with my timeline. Hoping by then things will have calmed down.
Ah ok. But yeah, that's my advice for trying to get any GR86. It's looking like 6 mo to a year. If you did want this orange one for some reason it would be extra hopeless.

Funny, for me it's looking more likely I'll be able to get this pumpkin before the red Premium I ordered in Dec. I was thinking if the opportunity does come I'll buy it, drive it a bit and sell it once I finally get an allocation for what I want. Any profit will be reimbursement for pain and suffering.

The dealer will probably end up getting an automatic
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Old 06-01-2022, 01:29 PM   #74
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Yeah, see that's the deal. If it's a year out, I may want to get in line in about a year, maybe a smidge more. Kinda targeting the time when my youngest kid will switch to forward facing. This will be a 3rd car, but I'd like the freedom to put the kids in the car for stuff like daycare dropoff from time to time. Honestly, that's the biggest reason I'm looking at one of these and not an S2K.
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Old 06-01-2022, 02:33 PM   #75
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Yeah, see that's the deal. If it's a year out, I may want to get in line in about a year, maybe a smidge more. Kinda targeting the time when my youngest kid will switch to forward facing. This will be a 3rd car, but I'd like the freedom to put the kids in the car for stuff like daycare dropoff from time to time. Honestly, that's the biggest reason I'm looking at one of these and not an S2K.
Ah right on. Similar idea for me here vs S2k. That little bit of extra usability can go a long way toward making a car something more than just a big expensive waste of space you occasionally take out for a spin. I couldn't possibly bring myself to enter into that. I expect my GR86 to soak up an equal third of all the miles we rack up on the 3 vehicles.
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