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Old 05-13-2019, 02:12 PM   #601
edkwon
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So I watched the video


And in contrast to those who are wrapped up in this hp crazy age, I'm OK with the philosophy of over building the chassis first and leaving a lot of headroom for power and aftermarket tuning, especially when it comes to any kind of driving that is simply not a drag strip and a straight line.

Driving a 500+ hp Turbo myself I've come to the conclusion that too much power can actually take away from the kind of driving fun that I (and I suspect most OT ppl) enjoy.
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Old 05-13-2019, 02:13 PM   #602
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Keep in mind the price of cars keeps going up. A loaded Mustang with a 10 speed manual and some track upgrades is approaching $50K MSRP. Same with a Camaro. You are well into the $40K range for a 2SS 1LE now.

The C8 is rumored to start in the mid $60K range and likely with a Z51 package you will be mid $70's. Look at the price of a Cayman S or Boxster S. A $50K Supra is not a bad price.
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Old 05-13-2019, 02:18 PM   #603
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Yeah I get it. I have driven very recent PDK and DCT's in cars I have cross shopped. The C8 is rumored to be DCT only. Trust me, from a performance perspective, I get it. But I am just not ready to give up the third pedal and gearbox just yet.

That said my ND Miata was paid full in cash. It is stage 2 and the suspension is dialed in with some very nice higher end coilovers. Honestly, it's the best manual gearbox I have owned. No rev hang. Really tight gates. Very direct. Clutch is easy to engage. Heel toe is easy. So easy to rev match.

I am at the point where I could see myself adding a gently used Supra, or some other more powerful car to the stable with a DCT/PDK/auto as long as I keep the Miata for when I want a manual. I just need to build more garage space
The Miata is hard to compare against these cars IMO. The miata wouldnt make sense to be offered in DCT / Flappy Paddle. The miata is damn well balanced but if it had higher HP numbers with tight gearing, it would need DCT, I think. These new "higher HP" cars partnered with gearing just wrap out to the top of 1-2 so fast it makes manual a bitch. Again, personal opinion but the newer "fancier" performance cars were no designed with a manual in mind, thus when they throw one in, it kind of suffers in performance category.
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Old 05-13-2019, 02:28 PM   #604
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What does this even mean? The Corvette has abysmal performance (you can get a new Grand Sport for well under $60K). The Camaro SS 1LE? M2? The Supra is 4.1 0-60 and, from all indications, the car handles really well. What are you expecting for $50-60K MSRP?
No. I forgot about the vette. That's more what I expect and want from a car for this price point. Same with the SS1LE, though I really consider that a 40k car. As well, the mustang GT PP2.

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You keep saying weak performance. You seem to be hung up on horsepower and did not even bother watching the reviews. Toyota used a master driver to dial in the car. Want more power? Mod it.
I'm past modding. There are better options out there stock. Vette is a stellar one for the same money. Otherwise, I can pick up an american v8 that has proven reliability.

I don't touch or screw with new engine platforms. I'll believe the b58 is capable after someone else nades a few to figure out the limits. My 4b11t went through the same stage and turned out great, but under no circumstance would I have picked one up new and tuned it. Potential isn't part of my consideration; it's just a cherry on top. The car has to be what I want from the get-go.

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As for Savaagegeese his opinion seems to echo everyone who drove the car and reviewed it. Matt Farah was estatic over the car and was clapping his hands when he finished his lap(s) in celebration.
Yes, because it's a well built car with a good chassis and lighter weight (than the br0 cars, still not light by any means) on a brand new platform. Color me surprised. What car isn't well-built now-a-days from that perspective that is a sports car? RS was fantastic. Type R was fantastic. ST was decently fantastic. The ones that suck are all the dumb luxo GT cars like the lexus RC or whatever infinity makes now.

I don't care as much about the feel of a car TBH. Stiff is better. No mush in the steering is a must. Car has to rotate on command and step the back end out easily. That's really my only requirement, and what car that even mildly flirts with being a sports car now-a-days is absolutely horrendous at any of that? Even the type R rotates like a boss and it's fail wheel drive. I doubt this car feels any better in those departments than the type R.

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Old 05-13-2019, 02:38 PM   #605
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So I watched the video
Driving a 500+ hp Turbo myself I've come to the conclusion that too much power can actually take away from the kind of driving fun that I (and I suspect most OT ppl) enjoy.
I don't know about that. Basically every time I get on a ramp or off a ramp, I can enjoy an unlimited amount of power. Any time I'm in the middle of nowhere, I drive like cops don't exist and put up with the risk. Never gotten a speeding ticket, though I've gotten tons of warnings basically everywhere, ironically not while hooning and more just keeping pace with traffic.

My tolerance for shenanigans is high so long as no one else is around.

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Keep in mind the price of cars keeps going up. A loaded Mustang with a 10 speed manual and some track upgrades is approaching $50K MSRP. Same with a Camaro. You are well into the $40K range for a 2SS 1LE now.
Loaded options are where the majority of huge price increases come from, and I avoid them like the plague. I just need something that can pair with my phone. The point is, I have the option with those cars to pick them up as strippers.

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A $50K Supra is not a bad price.
A 50k supra that even has to respect a 35k STI, RS, or type R (let alone my dead rally car) is already an issue. Then, you think about all the br0s that will trounce you in their garden variety muscle cars and it becomes unbearable for me.
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Old 05-13-2019, 03:04 PM   #606
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A 50k supra that even has to respect a 35k STI, RS, or type R (let alone my dead rally car) is already an issue. Then, you think about all the br0s that will trounce you in their garden variety muscle cars and it becomes unbearable for me.
LOL those cars aren't in the class of the Supra. Have you seen the acceleration and track times of the 2018+ STI? It's a 5 second 0-60 mph car and it's as fast around a track as an eight year old EVO X. Subaru is lucky if a CTR respects the STI let alone the Supra. The Focus RS is a fun car but it's kind of a one trick pony and it's now out of production. The Civic Type R is really the only car in this class that a Supra owner should respect and that's more due to it's track capability as it's not going to scare anyone in a straight line.
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Old 05-13-2019, 03:12 PM   #607
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The Miata is hard to compare against these cars IMO. The miata wouldnt make sense to be offered in DCT / Flappy Paddle. The miata is damn well balanced but if it had higher HP numbers with tight gearing, it would need DCT, I think. These new "higher HP" cars partnered with gearing just wrap out to the top of 1-2 so fast it makes manual a bitch. Again, personal opinion but the newer "fancier" performance cars were no designed with a manual in mind, thus when they throw one in, it kind of suffers in performance category.
Yeah that’s quite true. Ford and Chevy realized this and partnered on the 10AT for all their torque heavy RWD models. I’m actually impressed with the early reviews of this ZF8. It sounds like the best iteration yet. BUT, using Toyota’s own justification of not wanting to mess with the power in the 86 and pointing to the Supra as their answer, I think the target buyers of the 86 and this Supra were ultimately left out. Not only is the Supra a two seater but it’s auto only. Neither of which were even true of the previous much heralded Supra.
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Old 05-13-2019, 03:21 PM   #608
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The Civic Type R is really the only car in this class that a Supra owner should respect and that's more due to it's track capability as it's not going to scare anyone in a straight line.
The supra isn't scaring anyone in a straight line, either, though. Like I said, I know the supra is in a different class. The class of bad value sports cars. Vette gets a pass. M2 gets a semi-pass because I love e46 m3s and it's the closest thing we have to those.

Everything else that starts at a base price over 40k (not optioned, base MSRP) is a garbage car I wouldn't touch with a 10' pole. Yes, even the porsche. Real p cars worth the premium of the p-badge have a 911 badge or some GT moniker.

Lexus RC? lol.
Q60? lol.
ANY non m2 BMW? omega lol.
Cayman? meh.

Name me one car from this segment that has long-lasting nostalgia a'la s2000, supra, m3, or any 90s car like the supra?

None. Zero. They all depreciate like rocks because they're all garbage no one will remember. This supra and the z4 will follow suit. What I wanted was a timeless revival of a car that would be like the GTR. Never depreciating, hitting above it's weight class, resounding reviews of "zomg next coming of jesus!" etc. What I got was par for the course. A huge disservice to the name IMO.

"But no one can build cars like that any more, sports cars are a hard sell to companies!" Yeah, you're right. But maybe something should stay dead in that case.
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Old 05-13-2019, 03:29 PM   #609
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STI, CTR, Focus RS. None of those were built from the ground up to be a dedicated sports car. They take existing chassis and parts, etc and just add more stuff to them to make them faster/sportier.

It's not like the Supra/Z4 are using the same wheelbase/chasis from a 86 or M2 2 or 3 series or something.
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Old 05-13-2019, 03:31 PM   #610
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The supra isn't scaring anyone in a straight line, either, though. Like I said, I know the supra is in a different class. The class of bad value sports cars. Vette gets a pass. M2 gets a semi-pass because I love e46 m3s and it's the closest thing we have to those.

Everything else that starts at a base price over 40k (not optioned, base MSRP) is a garbage car I wouldn't touch with a 10' pole. Yes, even the porsche. Real p cars worth the premium of the p-badge have a 911 badge or some GT moniker.

Lexus RC? lol.
Q60? lol.
ANY non m2 BMW? omega lol.
Cayman? meh.

Name me one car from this segment that has long-lasting nostalgia a'la s2000, supra, m3, or any 90s car like the supra?

None. Zero. They all depreciate like rocks because they're all garbage no one will remember. This supra and the z4 will follow suit. What I wanted was a timeless revival of a car that would be like the GTR. Never depreciating, hitting above it's weight class, resounding reviews of "zomg next coming of jesus!" etc. What I got was par for the course. A huge disservice to the name IMO.

"But no one can build cars like that any more, sports cars are a hard sell to companies!" Yeah, you're right. But maybe something should stay dead in that case.
The Cayman is a meh?

LOL okay. You sound like a Hellcat kind of guy.
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Old 05-13-2019, 03:40 PM   #611
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Agree with BeepBoop: B58 + Auto is ghey. Supra not found.

Also, Cayman=Gayman.
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Old 05-13-2019, 03:47 PM   #612
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Nobody buys GTR’s. Over the last three years Nissan has sold 600 a year in the US which is how many Corvettes GM sells bi-weekly and less than the amount of 911’s Porsche sells monthly. That’s a bad measuring stick unless the discussion revolves around the GTR, NSX and Japanese supercars nobody wants.
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Old 05-13-2019, 03:49 PM   #613
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STI, CTR, Focus RS. None of those were built from the ground up to be a dedicated sports car. They take existing chassis and parts, etc and just add more stuff to them to make them faster/sportier.

It's not like the Supra/Z4 are using the same wheelbase/chasis from a 86 or M2 2 or 3 series or something.
Again, you're ignoring the elephant in the room and taking it as a given, I'm assuming because you're writing it off as unreasonable or irreplicable due to economies of scale, but I don't care about that. Toyota is a world leader. They could put forth the effort and money if they wanted to. They don't, and I don't necessarily blame them. Hard to justify new bespoke engine dev when you're not expecting a 10 year life on gas cars with sales that will erode to nothing in 2-3 years.

I don't mind the BMW partnership as much. I actually like a lot of their engines and I know they can be some gems for tuning. I mind the one they chose or the price point. Take your pick. Car market, like housing, is a bubble that's going to pop. Just because you're roping in tons of retards and 50k seems like the new 30k doesn't mean it's a good financial thing to do.
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Old 05-13-2019, 04:00 PM   #614
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Again, you're ignoring the elephant in the room and taking it as a given, I'm assuming because you're writing it off as unreasonable or irreplicable due to economies of scale, but I don't care about that. Toyota is a world leader. They could put forth the effort and money if they wanted to. They don't, and I don't necessarily blame them. Hard to justify new bespoke engine dev when you're not expecting a 10 year life on gas cars with sales that will erode to nothing in 2-3 years.

I don't mind the BMW partnership as much. I actually like a lot of their engines and I know they can be some gems for tuning. I mind the one they chose or the price point. Take your pick. Car market, like housing, is a bubble that's going to pop. Just because you're roping in tons of retards and 50k seems like the new 30k doesn't mean it's a good financial thing to do.
Your concern/issue with pricing is true of the entire car market then. Ever price out a loaded pickup truck, SUV, CUV, etc? My co-worker just spent almost $70K on a Tahoe. My wife's Honda Odyssey was right at $40K after I negotiated the price down and this was about 2 years ago.

A loaded Miata RF is $35K+ MSRP (I think the 30th AE RF is about $38K).

The benchnmark for the Supra was the Cayman. Toyota bought every model year of the Cayman and really wanted to target that buyer and undercut the Cayman price.

Like I said the C8 Corvette will likley start at $65K. A Supra at $50K is not ridiculous. It's just what cars cost now. It may be a bubble, who knows, but I doubt it. I don't see car prices going down.
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Old 05-13-2019, 04:07 PM   #615
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Like I said the C8 Corvette will likley start at $65K. A Supra at $50K is not ridiculous. It's just what cars cost now. It may be a bubble, who knows, but I doubt it. I don't see car prices going down.
Stop looking at options. Don't touch them and stick to basic cars under 40k and the car market is fantastic.

A base mazda 3/civic/etc is fantastic and comes with plenty of features for 20k. No longer are the pleb models the ones of the 90s with absolutely 0 content (no ac, no power windows, drum brakes, etc).

You're right, though. A vast majority of cars I do not see as being worth even half of what people pay based on the cheap market stuff. The majority of the car's construction cost are the engineering of the powertrain and the raw materials. The tech crap they throw on for thousands more are all high-margin things that my peers love and I hate. So yes, cars in general are ridiculous as far as pricing goes at a certain point.
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Old 05-13-2019, 04:19 PM   #616
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The price is fine. Its below the 718, Vette and TTS/TTRS and above the Type-R, STI, Golf R. Top spec Mustangs and Camaros are $50k now.

The horsepower is low yes, but the torque numbers per lbs are on par with the rest.

Biggest issue still is that it is the same weight as a Vette and 300-400lbs heavier than a 718. 718 or the Vette would be better track options and have better cargo capacity too for hauling track supplies.
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Old 05-13-2019, 04:51 PM   #617
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The price is fine. Its below the 718, Vette and TTS/TTRS and above the Type-R, STI, Golf R. Top spec Mustangs and Camaros are $50k now.

The horsepower is low yes, but the torque numbers per lbs are on par with the rest.

Biggest issue still is that it is the same weight as a Vette and 300-400lbs heavier than a 718. 718 or the Vette would be better track options and have better cargo capacity too for hauling track supplies.
I would estimate less than a 1/4 of these cars ever see a track. You are foregoing quality when opting for the Vette and some people don’t want to carry that flag. The 718 is more money no matter how you slice it as base level Porsche’s are fictional creatures. If you want basic amenities like steering wheel controls, climate control, etc you are over $60k and it’s a bit of a dog in a straight line for that kind of cash. The alternatives have their own pros and cons.
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Old 05-13-2019, 05:16 PM   #618
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OR you could look at the Supra as a marginally better performing 40% more expensive 370z.
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Old 05-13-2019, 07:15 PM   #619
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This is not the Supra that many of you are looking for. This is the entry-level base model; the volume version with the automatic and moderate tuning.

It won't be as fast as a corvette. It won't be as light as a Miata. It won't be as good a value as any muscle car that will let you throw your family in it and still pull respectable (for a slow-ass petrol-powered car) 1/4 mile times. It's weird-looking. It's difficult to get into. It's impossible to see out of. It isn't really even Japanese.

I don't care. I like it.

I'm just glad they're still building sports cars in the age of the Prius and the Crossover.
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Old 05-13-2019, 08:36 PM   #620
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Duuuuuuuuude. But I can buy a Hellcat for like the same money!!! The horsepower!!!!
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Old 05-13-2019, 08:37 PM   #621
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Duuuuuuuuude. But I can buy a Hellcat for like the same money!!! The horsepower!!!!
Then that means cars like the Hellcat are for you, nothing is wrong with that. This new Supra isn't. That's all.
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Old 05-13-2019, 08:44 PM   #622
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Then that means cars like the Hellcat are for you, nothing is wrong with that. This new Supra isn't. That's all.
I think you missed my sarcasm

There is a hilarious Motor Trend video of Johnny Lieberman trying to lap a Hellcat around the Streets Of Willow and beat Randy Pobst's time in an ND Miata. The Hellcat is a one trick pony and that pony has no curves in it.

Oh the Miata beat the Hellcat by like 3 hours
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Old 05-13-2019, 09:33 PM   #623
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OR you could look at the Supra as a marginally better performing 40% more expensive 370z.
Resurrected Supra is better than dead car yes
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Old 05-13-2019, 09:45 PM   #624
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OR you could look at the Supra as a marginally better performing 40% more expensive 370z.
LOL the 370Z is not even in the same ballpark. The 370Z is closer to BRZ performance than it is Supra. It's (the Nismo version that's not that cheap) 0-60 in 5.2 seconds is considerably slower and in a dead heat with a Golf R (not exactly a hardened track car) at VIR according to the C&D putting up a time that's over 5 seconds slower than an M230i for crying out loud. Bad car to bring in this conversation.
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Old 05-13-2019, 11:09 PM   #625
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LOL the 370Z is not even in the same ballpark.
The supra is about as distant from the corvette as the 370z is from the supra. The 370z is 20k cheaper than the supra, but the supra is only 5k cheaper than the vette. Same price if you get the launch supra.

Sounds like the supra is a bad car to bring into its own conversation.
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