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Old 03-22-2012, 12:25 PM   #26
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I so hope that we don't have another S2000 repeat. Another cool sports car that almost does what it should. In my opinion at that price 200hp is just embarrassing. People are going to say cool car, to bad it's so slow.
This car will not be for the posers and I am glad for that.

This is a real car for the true enthusiasts. For people who appreciate the Miata, S2000, MR-S, or Elise.

The Miata has similar power to weight ratio and a is a joy to drive.

I hope there will be a Spec BRZ/FR-S race, similar to the Spec Miata series.
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Old 03-22-2012, 12:39 PM   #27
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The only reason Spec Miata is so successful is because there are so many miatas. There are soo many miatas because it isn't enthusiast-only car.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:00 PM   #28
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Cool! Seems like a reasonable deal to me. Light rear wheel drive true sports car for under 25k. I call that a win for car enthusiests everywhere.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:01 PM   #29
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This reminds me of fragmented office conversations between several people after which people are trying to figure out the source of some "fact" only to find out that the "source" was really a question...

"Is so and so coming in on Friday?" evolves over time into, "So and so is taking a 6 month sabbatical to Papa New Guinea"

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Wasn't the car suppose to be under $20K?

Last edited by Airborne_J; 03-22-2012 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:33 PM   #30
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The only reason Spec Miata is so successful is because there are so many miatas. There are soo many miatas because it isn't enthusiast-only car.
Very true.

A couple of years ago when I was looking for a sports car, it simply amazed me that the Miata was even available with an automatic.
After talking with 3 or 4 people who were driving a Miata, I came to the conclusion that there are a bunch of people who want to appear sporty without going to the effort of driving a standard or taking a performance driving class to learn how to actually make use of the capability a good handling car offers.

In my mind I equate it to the weekend Harley crowd who like to feel like bikers without any of the hassle that goes along with riding in the cold or rain.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:46 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by LoveMyCoupe View Post
Very true.

A couple of years ago when I was looking for a sports car, it simply amazed me that the Miata was even available with an automatic.
After talking with 3 or 4 people who were driving a Miata, I came to the conclusion that there are a bunch of people who want to appear sporty without going to the effort of driving a standard or taking a performance driving class to learn how to actually make use of the capability a good handling car offers.

In my mind I equate it to the weekend Harley crowd who like to feel like bikers without any of the hassle that goes along with riding in the cold or rain.
It doesn't matter how you drive.. a top-down blast in a Miata is more fun than any normal commuter car.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:59 PM   #32
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It's about $1,500-$2,000 above what I was expecting, but I'd say it's still a good deal for what you're getting. Unfortunately that will probably mean the BRZ starts around $27k. Standard HID's, Nav, etc is going to add a few grand. That's still not a big deal, since options like that are not cheap to add, but it might hurt for people that want the Subaru version but don't want to pay high $20k's for it. Maybe the pricing will come down if sales aren't what they expect, but for some reason I don't think they'll have trouble selling these for whatever they ask.
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:04 PM   #33
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I don't see how anyone can say this car is overpriced. Asking price of ~$24k for a newly designed RWD sports car, 6spd manual, modern day safety equipment, desired performance hardware, while keeping it fairly light, there's really not much more you can ask for. The car is still made for the masses, you can't expect the company to de-content it that much.

A comparable brand new Miata is roughly the same price with a little less power, open diff, and 5spd manual. Pricing for this ToyoBaru is reasonable and competitive in my opinion.

It's refreshing to see a car like this offered in America.
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:06 PM   #34
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It's about $3000 overpriced IMO. Unless it comes pretty well equiped.

Even if that's the case I would still rather have a cheaper stripper version.


You can get a Juke for $19,900 and that comes with AWD, or a Veloster for $18,000 (turbo is rumored at $21k-$22k).
Granted these are completely different cars, but noone except enthusiasts are going to know how different they are.
This car is geared towards enthusiasts, so who cares about everyone else.

And I can guarantee most people can discern between a little hatchback, a little SOV, and a 2 door sports car. That's like saying most people can't tell the difference between a miata and a murano convertible.
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:09 PM   #35
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This reminds me of fragmented office conversations between several people after which people are trying to figure out the source of some "fact" only to find out that the "source" was really a question...

"Is so and so coming in on Friday?" evolves over time into, "So and so is taking a 6 month sabbatical to Papa New Guinea"
Originally 5 years ago or so Subaru said there target was the very young crowd and said their target price was under 20K. I was planning on purchasing one because of that, but as the delays mounted and the the car gained features and horsepower Subaru hinted at a higher cost. The 18K estimate did not seem to last to long but that was the original idea, 18K or so, 2500 pounds and 180 hp.
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:25 PM   #36
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And I can guarantee most people can discern between a little hatchback, a little SOV, and a 2 door sports car. That's like saying most people can't tell the difference between a miata and a murano convertible.
I think you give the general public too much credit.
Yes, they can see that the cars all look different, but they will also lump them into a category based on size, power, and engine size.

Pop over to the BRZ thread or Edmunds (straightline blog) and look at how many people are comparing this car to the V6 Mustang and Camaro, and the only thing it has in common with them is they all happen to be RWD.

Last edited by justincredible; 03-22-2012 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:00 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by LoveMyCoupe View Post
After talking with 3 or 4 people who were driving a Miata, I came to the conclusion that there are a bunch of people who want to appear sporty without going to the effort of driving a standard or taking a performance driving class to learn how to actually make use of the capability a good handling car offers.
Or that there are folks who want a convertible that A) doesn't break the bank or B)look like a Camry...
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:08 PM   #38
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I think he's saying a 200hp Civic Si is over $20K so why wouldn't a 200hp RWD sports car be a bit more?
Exactly. And even with the Civic Si, I think it broke the $20k barrier by the 2007 model year, and it's currently in the $22k range.

I was hoping for it to start at around the same, which would slaughter the Civic Si coupe's sales (as I think only die-hard Honda enthusiasts would pick it over a similarly-priced FR-S, unless there ends up being some major issue with the FR-S requiring lots of recalls), but I figured they would price it slightly higher, make a few extra bucks and still be competitive sales-wise. I was thinking $23k, so the $24,200 base price (without the destination charge) is a little higher than what I had expected, especially when you realize that Scions have pure pricing (so you cannot negotiate the sale price of a new Scion) while its competitors priced similarly can probably get the price reduced with some haggling.

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Originally Posted by justincredible View Post
It's about $3000 overpriced IMO. Unless it comes pretty well equiped.
I don't think it's going to be equipped the way you think. Remember that the BRZ is going to get the nicer interior that we've seen in pictures, matching what the Toyota GT-86 is getting. The Scion FR-S variant is getting cheaper interior pieces, like the ribbed HVAC knobs that are used in the entire Scion lineup. It's probably not going to have much fancy stuff, but we'll see.

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Originally Posted by AndyRoo View Post
BRZ really doesn't have THAT much more than the FRS. Really just the standard NAV....i'm still expecting a little over 25 for the premium and maybe another 2k for the limited.
But the entire dashboard and HVAC controls are different units that are much nicer... not that it really affects the car's operations much, but it's a better interior overall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e11ys View Post
It's about $1,500-$2,000 above what I was expecting, but I'd say it's still a good deal for what you're getting. Unfortunately that will probably mean the BRZ starts around $27k. Standard HID's, Nav, etc is going to add a few grand. That's still not a big deal, since options like that are not cheap to add, but it might hurt for people that want the Subaru version but don't want to pay high $20k's for it. Maybe the pricing will come down if sales aren't what they expect, but for some reason I don't think they'll have trouble selling these for whatever they ask.
This.
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:14 PM   #39
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This car will not be for the posers and I am glad for that.

This is a real car for the true enthusiasts. For people who appreciate the Miata, S2000, MR-S, or Elise.
I guarantee every driftkid who is 18 and works at taco bel or pizzahut will own one or want one. This is the ultimate ride for scions target audience.
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:18 PM   #40
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I guarantee every driftkid who is 18 and works at taco bel or pizzahut will own one or want one. This is the ultimate ride for scions target audience.
Yup. It's got the wrong badge if their goal was to appeal only to the "true enthusiasts" and not to "posers." They'll be appealing to both, so we will certainly see some ******** doing fly-bys on the freeway in these in the coming months, just like we will likely see these at autocross events.
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:45 PM   #41
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I guarantee every driftkid who is 18 and works at taco bel or pizzahut will own one or want one. This is the ultimate ride for scions target audience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83 View Post
Yup. It's got the wrong badge if their goal was to appeal only to the "true enthusiasts" and not to "posers." They'll be appealing to both, so we will certainly see some ******** doing fly-bys on the freeway in these in the coming months, just like we will likely see these at autocross events.
I really don't see these cars being owned by a lot of teens for a while. At $24k+, it's down too far on power. Say even if they had the money to buy brand new, they'd probably go with a turbo Genesis coupe which has significantly more power and be at a lower price, or perhaps a new V6 Stang. I remember what I wanted at 18, it's definitely more power than handling. As I got older, my cars have been progressively slower. Now neither of my cars can break 0-60 in 9 seconds.

10 years from now, different story, the twins could be $5k (or whatever equivalent in value in 2022) cars and become the next 240SX.

Have the fuel economy numbers been released for these cars yet? If they can produce 30s on the highway, then I can see more people buying it as commuters but if it stays even in the high 20s hwy, this will be a niche car.
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:49 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83 View Post
Yup. It's got the wrong badge if their goal was to appeal only to the "true enthusiasts" and not to "posers." They'll be appealing to both, so we will certainly see some ******** doing fly-bys on the freeway in these in the coming months, just like we will likely see these at autocross events.
Luckily, they've priced it out of the poser price range Not to say they haven't priced some enthusiasts as well, but there's always the used market.

One year down the road, if the early-adopters are saying "the handling is great, but I can't live with this car", you'll see them on the used car market for cheap and you'll know that they were overpriced. Or, if people are holding onto them, you'll know that the price was perfect.
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:59 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by express_wagon View Post
I don't see how anyone can say this car is overpriced. Asking price of ~$24k for a newly designed RWD sports car, 6spd manual, modern day safety equipment, desired performance hardware, while keeping it fairly light, there's really not much more you can ask for. The car is still made for the masses, you can't expect the company to de-content it that much.

A comparable brand new Miata is roughly the same price with a little less power, open diff, and 5spd manual. Pricing for this ToyoBaru is reasonable and competitive in my opinion.

It's refreshing to see a car like this offered in America.
miata also weights 300lbs less, been on the road for a while so you know where you stand with that car, has a trubo which has a better potential when tuned, never the less its not something i would get personally
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:04 PM   #44
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miata also weights 300lbs less, been on the road for a while so you know where you stand with that car, has a trubo which has a better potential when tuned, never the less its not something i would get personally
Mazda hasn't offered a turbo MX5 in years. They are not cheap to make it significantly faster, neither will be the twins. Now I haven't done much aftermarket research on the Genesis 2.0T, but I imagine cranking out some extra ponies shouldn't cost all too much. It already has something like 270hp to begin with.
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:42 PM   #45
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Luckily, they've priced it out of the poser price range Not to say they haven't priced some enthusiasts as well, but there's always the used market.
The line between posers and enthusiasts has nothing to do with income.
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:06 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by express_wagon View Post
I really don't see these cars being owned by a lot of teens for a while. At $24k+, it's down too far on power. Say even if they had the money to buy brand new, they'd probably go with a turbo Genesis coupe which has significantly more power and be at a lower price, or perhaps a new V6 Stang. I remember what I wanted at 18, it's definitely more power than handling. As I got older, my cars have been progressively slower. Now neither of my cars can break 0-60 in 9 seconds.
There's no guarantee of that. Sure, it's far less powerful compared to a lot of other vehicles in that price range, but remember that Scion as a whole is marketed toward a younger crowd, plus with kids who may still be under their parents' financial umbrella, the lower hp figure may win some of their parents over while potentially having lower insurance rates compared to its more powerful competitors (at least until people start crashing them).

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Originally Posted by express_wagon View Post
Have the fuel economy numbers been released for these cars yet? If they can produce 30s on the highway, then I can see more people buying it as commuters but if it stays even in the high 20s hwy, this will be a niche car.
Autoblog said the manual transmission is rated at 21/30, while the auto is supposedly at 25/34.

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Originally Posted by manticus View Post
Luckily, they've priced it out of the poser price range Not to say they haven't priced some enthusiasts as well, but there's always the used market.
Not all posers are restricted to sub-$20k cars, unless you believe that every Porsche owner on the road is a real enthusiast who is serious about motorsports.
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:23 PM   #47
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I'm not sure I understand the attitude that this car is somehow a bad proposition compared to the 2.0T Gen Coupe. The FR-S will more than likely be just as fast, get the same gas mileage, cost less and handle significantly better. The GC is much more powerful, but it also weighs more than 600 lbs more than the FR-S. Am I missing something?
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:34 PM   #48
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I posted the data in the BRZ thread yesterday.

GC has similar economy, similar price, and a SIGNIFICANTLY better power to weight ratio.

Weight is the only advantage BRZ has, and turning and braking are the only things it might have an advantage on... depending on the quality of the brakes, tires, and dampers.

FRS will not be just as fast. Will not cost less, and for all of that... won't get significantly better fuel economy either. That is the problem. The weight reduction also means that it is more cramped to sit in and drive, which becomes an issue the longer of a trip you take, or if your knees hit the steering wheel when using the clutch and the brakes a lot.
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:49 PM   #49
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My knees only hit my steering wheel after someone else has adjusted my steering wheel too low. That was when I let others drive my car. It's been mostly me, so, yeah, not an issue as of late.

People (not aimed at you, Hip) need to start admitting to themselves whether they just want magazine-racing straightline speed or a car that's both easy AND fun to handle on a continual basis.

People also need to stop acting like they live in places where they can utilize 300+HP around every corner and turn.

200HP for a car that's consistently being touted as being fun to drive seems reasonable to me.
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:53 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by express_wagon View Post
Mazda hasn't offered a turbo MX5 in years. They are not cheap to make it significantly faster, neither will be the twins. Now I haven't done much aftermarket research on the Genesis 2.0T, but I imagine cranking out some extra ponies shouldn't cost all too much. It already has something like 270hp to begin with.
hmm didnt know about the turbo part, yeah the genesis 2t has very good potential in terms of mods a tuned versions would give a stage 2 sti a run for its money around the track, althought its a bit on the piggy side
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