Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Wednesday May 5, 2021
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > General Community

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-16-2021, 12:02 AM   #26
Blindeye_03
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 4418
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: NKY
Vehicle:
2020 WRX
MGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronnichols View Post
They say
So no one knows.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Blindeye_03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 04-16-2021, 12:06 AM   #27
JP Chestnut
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 504432
Join Date: Jul 2019
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindeye_03 View Post
So no one knows.
No. “They” say it.
JP Chestnut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2021, 12:43 AM   #28
aaronnichols
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 494232
Join Date: Nov 2018
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Houston Born and Raised
Vehicle:
04 Impreza RS
Gray

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindeye_03 View Post
So no one knows.
JDM has been installing FA20 DI motors in japan since 2015. it only makes sense the new generation of wrx should come with the better motors. better fuel economy. better torque better hp. everything is better.
aaronnichols is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2021, 12:45 AM   #29
murrdogg24
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 50586
Join Date: Dec 2003
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Colorado Springs
Vehicle:
2020 STI
Crystal White Pearl

Default

except the amount of carbon build up you get from DI...so no not everything is better...
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronnichols View Post
JDM has been installing FA20 DI motors in japan since 2015. it only makes sense the new generation of wrx should come with the better motors. better fuel economy. better torque better hp. everything is better.
murrdogg24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2021, 12:50 AM   #30
aaronnichols
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 494232
Join Date: Nov 2018
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Houston Born and Raised
Vehicle:
04 Impreza RS
Gray

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by murrdogg24 View Post
except the amount of carbon build up you get from DI...so no not everything is better...
See there we go. i like that you bring actual reasons why fa24 might not be a better choice than the EJ25.
aaronnichols is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2021, 12:56 AM   #31
aaronnichols
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 494232
Join Date: Nov 2018
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Houston Born and Raised
Vehicle:
04 Impreza RS
Gray

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by murrdogg24 View Post
except the amount of carbon build up you get from DI...so no not everything is better...
But if i do have a choice i would rather deal with a fuel injector cleaning every 30,000 miles rather than fuel pre igniting in a overheated combustion chamber.
aaronnichols is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2021, 07:43 AM   #32
Norm Peterson
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 498642
Join Date: Mar 2019
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: our wrx IS the family sedan
Vehicle:
'19 WRX Ltd 6M dgm
'08 Mustang GT (the toy)

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronnichols View Post
... better torque
I'm not so sure about the 'better torque' part. What I get is that the FA has much better throttle response in exchange for torque that's a bit soft in the midrange. Better overall does not have to mean that all of the details are better.


Norm
Norm Peterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2021, 07:55 AM   #33
aaronnichols
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 494232
Join Date: Nov 2018
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Houston Born and Raised
Vehicle:
04 Impreza RS
Gray

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
I'm not so sure about the 'better torque' part. What I get is that the FA has much better throttle response in exchange for torque that's a bit soft in the midrange. Better overall does not have to mean that all of the details are better.



Norm
oh yeah your right... The torque goes from 400+ to 270... That's a pretty big loss.

Looks like I'll stay with the EJ25 motor then!
aaronnichols is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2021, 08:04 AM   #34
rtv900
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 428511
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: philadelphia
Vehicle:
2016 STI

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GAMETIME2121 View Post
I think he was wondering if the FA24 was a decent candidate for those power levels.
Correct, and it is not, it's not even debatable. He may as well ask if it is practical to put a decommissioned apache gas turbine in it and if that would be safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blurred View Post
Just need to point out this is completely wrong, regardless of how clueless the op is about building high hp cars you can definitely have a great handling 1200 car with "skinny" tires that also handle the power. My good friend puts almost 1200whp through 2 225 width tires on a fwd car which also would corner as well as my modded sti, just for 1 extreme example.
^you can say that but sorry I don't believe it for 2 seconds. I own a C7 Z06 with 335 section tires and the stock 650 hp is absolutely insane, in 90 degree weather it will barely stay planted in 2nd gear and only the most skilled track drivers can utilize the car's limit. Suggesting you can take 5 inches of tire width away AND double the power AND take away the platform that is designed a million times better for performance and it will still perform well is simply unrealistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronnichols View Post
But if i do have a choice i would rather deal with a fuel injector cleaning every 30,000 miles rather than fuel pre igniting in a overheated combustion chamber.
Facepalm!
Dude, direct injection in a gasoline motor is NOT, NOT like a diesel. The gasoline is STILL injected during the intake stroke and mixed with air and compressed and THEN ignited by spark.
rtv900 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2021, 08:18 AM   #35
Jack
Add Lightness
Moderator
 
Member#: 13699
Join Date: Dec 2001
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Hopkinton, MA
Vehicle:
2021 Building
It Better

Default

If you're looking for that kind of power, search through some of the 5ish year old NASIOC posts for the guy from Greece with the 2500 HP documented EJ25. Brings to mind the phrase "there's always someone faster".

If I wanted 1200 HP for some reason, I'd start with either a Viper or a GT-R, both of which have "kits" to do that kind of thing and have hundreds of successful builds. All the ones I've seen that use that kind of power are at the drag strip.
Jack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2021, 09:56 AM   #36
Norm Peterson
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 498642
Join Date: Mar 2019
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: our wrx IS the family sedan
Vehicle:
'19 WRX Ltd 6M dgm
'08 Mustang GT (the toy)

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blurred View Post
Just need to point out this is completely wrong, regardless of how clueless the op is about building high hp cars you can definitely have a great handling 1200 car with "skinny" tires that also handle the power. My good friend puts almost 1200whp through 2 225 width tires on a fwd car which also would corner as well as my modded sti, just for 1 extreme example.
That either says some very good things about your good friend (both his driving and and his overall understanding of vehicle dynamics) or some not so good things about your STi's handling modifications and your skill in the corners.


Norm
Norm Peterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2021, 10:04 AM   #37
blurred
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 47143
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Toronto
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post


^you can say that but sorry I don't believe it for 2 seconds. I own a C7 Z06 with 335 section tires and the stock 650 hp is absolutely insane, in 90 degree weather it will barely stay planted in 2nd gear and only the most skilled track drivers can utilize the car's limit. Suggesting you can take 5 inches of tire width away AND double the power AND take away the platform that is designed a million times better for performance and it will still perform well is simply unrealistic.

That's the attitude of every single "fast" car/supercar that gets embarrassed by this

Also, I didn't say track, its not a lapping car for sure
blurred is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2021, 10:37 AM   #38
rtv900
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 428511
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: philadelphia
Vehicle:
2016 STI

Default

^meh, still hard to believe

1200 hp is getting put to the ground effectively through 225 section tires and only TWO at that??????
I mean just that alone is basically impossible to believe. Just from a basic science and physics standpoint how is that possible?
Even at half that power level it is kind of impossible to believe.
rtv900 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2021, 10:57 AM   #39
aaronnichols
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 494232
Join Date: Nov 2018
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Houston Born and Raised
Vehicle:
04 Impreza RS
Gray

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post
^meh, still hard to believe

1200 hp is getting put to the ground effectively through 225 section tires and only TWO at that??????
I mean just that alone is basically impossible to believe. Just from a basic science and physics standpoint how is that possible?
Even at half that power level it is kind of impossible to believe.
Hate to spin your tires guys but this post is about the effectiveness of the FA24 vs the EJ25 as a high performance platform.
aaronnichols is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2021, 11:07 AM   #40
cbk57
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 438759
Join Date: Jan 2016
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Altoona, Pennsylvania
Vehicle:
2013 Impreza WRX
Charcoal Grey

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronnichols View Post
Hate to spin your tires guys but this post is about the effectiveness of the FA24 vs the EJ25 as a high performance platform.
I have an EJ 25 wrx, I think they are both lousy choices for massive power boost unless you just have an unlimited pool of money. Aluminum is not that rigid to begin with. It does not matter which is “better”. It is like converting a car to a boat or a plane. A 2.5 ish litter flat 4 is an exceedingly poor choice to make 1000 hp with. Yes you can find some guy that has done it. There is always that guy the builds one. Almost no one in the US has enough knowledge because the FA24 turbo is not available enough that many people have worked on them. So far I think maybe you can get it in a legacy? But in that application it is not tuned for performance to begin with. You also spoke of a conversion, If you have to do this, why don:t you wait for the new STI and upgrade that car to whatever you can max out on it? It is not like you can do this without a big pool of cash anyway unless you are an automotive engineer. Also check out “How to build a subaru EJ engine that won:t blow up” on youtube. Gives a great why and how to get to big power and what won:t work and what will. Then if you have the money go for it.
cbk57 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2021, 11:37 AM   #41
JP Chestnut
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 504432
Join Date: Jul 2019
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronnichols View Post
Hate to spin your tires guys but this post is about the effectiveness of the FA24 vs the EJ25 as a high performance platform.
One is probably a worse choice, but neither are anywhere good.
JP Chestnut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2021, 12:10 PM   #42
rtv900
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 428511
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: philadelphia
Vehicle:
2016 STI

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronnichols View Post
Hate to spin your tires guys but this post is about the effectiveness of the FA24 vs the EJ25 as a high performance platform.
I think he actually asked if the 24 was a good platform for 4 digit hp, which of course it is not
regardless, see below

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
One is probably a worse choice, but neither are anywhere good.
^this
rtv900 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2021, 01:39 PM   #43
snow_bound26
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 395793
Join Date: Jul 2014
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: SLC and Lake Placid
Vehicle:
2005 92x Aero
Beige

Default

OP, let's get down to brass tacks. 99.99999% of all people that pose these questions never follow through with doing much more than putting an exhaust on their car. So, what's your reason for this thread? If it's just to pose the question, then yes with enough money it's possible. Is it practical with a 4 cyl engine? Absolutely not. There are much much better platforms to do it with which have been mentioned. Although one that hasn't, which I forgot about as well, is Audi's 5cyl engine. That is capable of some serious power, but just like every platform it has its limitations.

There's really only 2 reasonable uses for a 1200hp build, 1/4 mile or standing mile. Aerodynamics are definitely a limiting factor for any Subaru going much past 150mph. Is it possible? Sure. There's a GD chassis that's doing 200+ in the mile, but I'm guessing he's got $80k at least into that car. Who knows how often it's getting rebuilt.

So reality; FA or EJ would need billet heads and short block. Unless you only want to get one or two pulls out of it before it blows up. Then there's reinforcing the chassis to handle that much power. And don't forget a custom gear set and most likely a custom build trans case as well. At least you can rely on a chute to slow you down so brakes will be reasonably priced. With how often you'll be pulling the power train out for maintenance, you'll want to build a tube chassis front end for strength, rigidity and ease of maintenance. Probably want to do the same at the rear to support your fuel cell and cooling system as well. Think drift car type build for instance.

There's a million more aspects to consider here as well. So why look at a Subaru for this type of project? Anyone seriously considering this would likely not be posting this question here looking for responses from any old Joe Schmo. If you want an idea of how much work a project like this takes, look at Chris Forsberg's recent Altima build.
snow_bound26 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2021, 02:59 PM   #44
rtv900
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 428511
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: philadelphia
Vehicle:
2016 STI

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by snow_bound26 View Post
OP, let's get down to brass tacks. 99.99999% of all people that pose these questions never follow through with doing much more than putting an exhaust on their car.
^this had me cracking up
rtv900 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2021, 12:49 AM   #45
aaronnichols
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 494232
Join Date: Nov 2018
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Houston Born and Raised
Vehicle:
04 Impreza RS
Gray

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by snow_bound26 View Post
OP, let's get down to brass tacks. 99.99999% of all people that pose these questions never follow through with doing much more than putting an exhaust on their car. So, what's your reason for this thread? If it's just to pose the question, then yes with enough money it's possible. Is it practical with a 4 cyl engine? Absolutely not. There are much much better platforms to do it with which have been mentioned. Although one that hasn't, which I forgot about as well, is Audi's 5cyl engine. That is capable of some serious power, but just like every platform it has its limitations.

There's really only 2 reasonable uses for a 1200hp build, 1/4 mile or standing mile. Aerodynamics are definitely a limiting factor for any Subaru going much past 150mph. Is it possible? Sure. There's a GD chassis that's doing 200+ in the mile, but I'm guessing he's got $80k at least into that car. Who knows how often it's getting rebuilt.

So reality; FA or EJ would need billet heads and short block. Unless you only want to get one or two pulls out of it before it blows up. Then there's reinforcing the chassis to handle that much power. And don't forget a custom gear set and most likely a custom build trans case as well. At least you can rely on a chute to slow you down so brakes will be reasonably priced. With how often you'll be pulling the power train out for maintenance, you'll want to build a tube chassis front end for strength, rigidity and ease of maintenance. Probably want to do the same at the rear to support your fuel cell and cooling system as well. Think drift car type build for instance.

There's a million more aspects to consider here as well. So why look at a Subaru for this type of project? Anyone seriously considering this would likely not be posting this question here looking for responses from any old Joe Schmo. If you want an idea of how much work a project like this takes, look at Chris Forsberg's recent Altima build.

I've decided I'm going to go with stage 3 magnum IAG. I really don't have a need to build a drag car out of a Subaru. Really just aiming at 600whp so I can blow the doors off of 99.99% of the drivers on the road.
aaronnichols is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2021, 06:50 AM   #46
rtv900
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 428511
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: philadelphia
Vehicle:
2016 STI

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronnichols View Post
I've decided I'm going to go with stage 3 magnum IAG. I really don't have a need to build a drag car out of a Subaru. Really just aiming at 600whp so I can blow the doors off of 99.99% of the drivers on the road.
Interesting how when you start off at 1200 somehow 600 sounds reasonable for this platform in contrast.

Good luck keeping that vehicle on the ground at 600 hp.
rtv900 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2021, 07:29 AM   #47
Jack
Add Lightness
Moderator
 
Member#: 13699
Join Date: Dec 2001
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Hopkinton, MA
Vehicle:
2021 Building
It Better

Default

I had a student with a 600 HP STi on the track. It's way more power than you think it is.
Jack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2021, 01:03 PM   #48
cbk57
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 438759
Join Date: Jan 2016
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Altoona, Pennsylvania
Vehicle:
2013 Impreza WRX
Charcoal Grey

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack View Post
I had a student with a 600 HP STi on the track. It's way more power than you think it is.
People have lost the perspective of what these numbers mean. I am an auto racing fan and most major forms of Motorsport now significantly limit horsepower in some form NASCAR has cut their cars to the neighborhood of 600 hp, F-1 is one of the higher around 1000 peak but that is with a battery boost, Indycar is somewhere in between. Making that power gets expensive, then there is the safety side which relates to controllability.

If you look at what it took Honda with all of its resources to develop a F-1 engine that was reliable and capable of winning races, it is absurd to think an armature mechanic can really make huge horsepower on a reliable basis with small displacement turbo charged engines. Honda power cars this year have a 2nd place and a 1st place so far in F-1.

We had a local incident where a driver lost control of a corvette in town hit a tree and died, I think the car lifted as it crested a hill at pretty high speed in a 35mph speed zone and he lost it when the car landed, unless the car was starting to rotate before leaving the ground.

Those race cars that make 600 hp though are universally and comprehensively designed to deal with impacts that 600hp can produce in terms of velocity.

The OP said he will be able to blow the doors off 99% of cars on the road, well 99% of drivers on the road don:t care what your car has. At the same time 99% of drivers on the road, look at lowered boy racer cars on the street and just think there goes a moron. I know the OP and others love to mod these cars, I say great, but that does not mean anyone thinks your a genius for doing so. I kind of say this to myself and all of us. I have a WRX and I have to remind myself to not live up to the image as expressed in Top Gear that Subaru drivers are morons. The other one that comes to mind Is James Cassia, something along the lines of "Don:t drive like an *******". If you don:t get it look it up on youtube. This type of thread you might say is my therapy.

Frankly I cringe at the thought of running around with an access port glued to my dash as it feels like it has an automotive cliche. I appoloize sort of to everyone I am insulting. But if you are insulted, get over your self and reflect a bit. I try to. I can be as much a moron as anyone.

Last edited by cbk57; 04-19-2021 at 01:38 PM.
cbk57 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2021, 02:02 PM   #49
rtv900
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 428511
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: philadelphia
Vehicle:
2016 STI

Default

^right, even 600 is absurd for this platform.
Other than on a track you couldn't pay me to get in the passenger seat with a guy who intended to push the full 600 on an STI or wrx.

IMO 400hp is the top of the realistic power level for this, maybe 450.
600 no way
rtv900 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2021, 02:10 PM   #50
JP Chestnut
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 504432
Join Date: Jul 2019
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbk57 View Post
Those race cars that make 600 hp though are universally and comprehensively designed to deal with impacts that 600hp can produce in terms of velocity.
And even so, stuff like this happens:


the idea that you can safely stuff 600hp into a platform designed for use in the 150hp, $17,000, ****box Impreza is pure childhood fantasy.
JP Chestnut is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2021 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.