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Old 11-05-2020, 09:46 AM   #51
Norm Peterson
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Originally Posted by F1EA View Post
Yep agree.

I think it's likely people who don't want to feel "sitgmatized" for driving an auto...
Hey, I don't drive an automatic. I drive a DSG!
Hmmmmm . . .

Yeah, I guess it might be a bit embarassing to admit that it could have anything in common - operationally from the driver's seat - with the transmissions in things like Camrys and minivans.


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Old 11-05-2020, 10:54 AM   #52
rtv900
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Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
Hmmmmm . . .

Yeah, I guess it might be a bit embarassing to admit that it could have anything in common - operationally from the driver's seat - with the transmissions in things like Camrys and minivans.


Norm
yeah, camry's, minivans. . . .or you know, any of the other 99.9% of cars on the road today
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Old 11-19-2020, 01:54 PM   #53
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Well once you remove the charcoal filter the throttle response isn't that bad
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Old 11-23-2020, 07:42 PM   #54
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My Ascent and Legacy 3.6r have CVTs. The CVT work great. I wouldn't want one for my WRX obviously but Subarus do a great job.
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Old 11-24-2020, 11:26 AM   #55
Norm Peterson
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Originally Posted by legacygt777 View Post
My Ascent and Legacy 3.6r have CVTs. The CVT work great. I wouldn't want one for my WRX obviously but Subarus do a great job.
My recollection concerning the CVT in the Legacy was that the Legacy was one of the later Subaru models to end up with the CVT. I'm assuming that Subaru felt some need to develop it a bit further for the larger engine.


Even though the WRX is big enough for nearly all of our needs (and is a hoot to drive with much better throttle response than the LGT we had before it), I'm still kind of annoyed at Subaru for dropping the 6MT from the Legacy lineup.


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Old 11-25-2020, 04:14 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
First impressions probably have a lot to do with it no matter who you are. For me, automatics started out being clearly the inferior choice for performance. Perhaps as a direct consequence, the whole mindlessness of just slapping the thing in 'D' and going became quite clear. So for me, it ends up being some of each, MT > AT generally, and that my attitude toward the ATs of today is already somewhat biased because of my experience with the ATs of the past.

Intellectually I do understand that they've gotten quite good. But they're still a poor fit for me individually. And FWIW, there's at least one respect in which today's ATs have devolved from some of the early ones. The older Chrysler Torqueflite and Powerflite transmissions could be push/pop-started if the battery was too weak to start the engine on its starter. I think you could do the same with some of the early Ford ATs as well.



Let me put it this way . . . I don't think I've ever liked having my car's transmission do any of its own shifting. Not even 50 years or so ago when I ended up having to drive cars with automatics because they were the only cars that were available to me (no surprise that I ended up manually shifting them most of the time). I've always hated those 'forced' downshifts caused by using the gas pedal. If I want a lower gear, I'll put the lever there and do my own rev-matching (yes, this is possible even with an AT).


Norm
It's not 1955 anymore, or whenever it was you started driving. DCTs are worlds better than whatever automatics were around when you started driving back in the stone age. You keep referencing the "way it used to be" as if it's relevant 70 years later in 2020 and it's not. (When was the last time anyone here had to push start a car? What a bizarre thing to say.....)

Your obvious bias aside, a DCT has much more in common mechanically with a manual transmission than it does a traditional torque converted slushbox auto.

Quote:
Hey, I don't drive an automatic. I drive a DSG!
Lumping all "automatics" together because hurrr durr they shift themselves, is pretty ignorant. There's a reason all of the ultra high performance marques are going to DCTs and it's not because MTs are better. It's only because of silly, insecure, anachronistic Americans that the MT is even still around because only real men drive stick.

Last edited by FaastLegacy; 11-25-2020 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 11-25-2020, 06:18 PM   #57
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I never understood why people romanticize the DSG/DCT so much. It is nothing more than a quicker shifting automatic; besides the newest ZF units made them obsolete. This new 7 DSG is anemic in the D mode, it downright lags the engine. It is still clunky in D and S, and auto up shifts is the manual mode, lol. Not too mention the really expensive maintenance.
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Old 11-25-2020, 06:47 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by FaastLegacy View Post
It's not 1955 anymore, or whenever it was you started driving. DCTs are worlds better than whatever automatics were around when you started driving back in the stone age. You keep referencing the "way it used to be" as if it's relevant 70 years later in 2020 and it's not. (When was the last time anyone here had to push start a car? What a bizarre thing to say.....)
Apparently you feel stung by the association (you do mention automatics using the old-faqshioned term "slushbox"), but that's on you for letting a bias left over from the early days of automated transmissions get to you. That's your problem, not mine.

When you enjoy doing your own shifting, it doesn't matter what kind of automatic it is, be it any of the ancient fluid-coupling or torque-converter planetary gear types, a CVT, or any of today's DSGs with the capability to shift automatically. In a way, I'm sorry that you feel that letting a computer programmed with somebody else's preferences is a better way than doing the same thing for yourself.


I wouldn't even care too much that you find that having your shifting done for you is a good thing, except that too many people who have felt the same way have been making it harder and harder to not get stuck with some automated 'box.


Quote:
Your obvious bias aside, a DCT has much more in common mechanically with a manual transmission than it does a traditional torque converted slushbox auto.
You're just as biased . . . the specific way the gears are mechanically engaged and disengaged by said automation is irrelevant. Simply having the ability to decide which forward gear to be in without any active help from the driver is all it takes to make a transmission an automatic (of some type or other). Having the equipment being able do its thing without direct human control is the very definition of 'automate', which is how we came to call any transmission an "automatic transmission" in the first place. It doesn't matter if you don't care for that definition, it is what it is.


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Old 11-25-2020, 07:06 PM   #59
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Quote:
Lumping all "automatics" together because hurrr durr they shift themselves, is pretty ignorant.
Refusing to see what all automated transmissions have in common is beyond ignorant.


Quote:
There's a reason all of the ultra high performance marques are going to DCTs and it's not because MTs are better.
Actually, the jury may still be out on that. I'm pretty sure that Audi is stepping back from DSGs. In favor of some conventional automatic because most people can't be bothered to learn how to coordinate a clutch pedal, the gas pedal, and a gearshift lever. Which is pretty sad when you stop to think about it.


Quote:
It's only because of silly, insecure, anachronistic Americans that the MT is even still around because only real men drive stick.
You just don't understand it at all. Even if I tried to explain it to you, I'd still have to do the understanding part of it for you as well.


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Old 11-25-2020, 07:11 PM   #60
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DSG/DCT is nothing more than another type of an AUTOMATIC transmission. There are different types of automatic transmissions, like EV single gear, CVT, DSG/DCT and your everyday torque converter type.

Last edited by Straight6; 11-26-2020 at 05:22 AM.
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Old 11-25-2020, 10:23 PM   #61
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3 pedals is always the winner in my book. Don't care if it's 2x slower than a slushbox. If you perfer CVT / DSG / DCT then all power to you. I personally find no joy in driving a 2 pedal car but that's just me. I like the clutching / shifting. My other ride is a bike so yeah more shifting.
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Old 11-26-2020, 08:51 AM   #62
Norm Peterson
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Originally Posted by FaastLegacy View Post
It's not 1955 anymore, or whenever it was you started driving.
1963-ish, which means I've been around for more than most forum members. Long enough to know myself better, and to know what I need to look for. Long enough to trust my own evaluations instead of swallowing advertising copy at face value. Long enough to understand that the opinions expressed in magazine articles are not universal truths (they're only individual opinions, and worded mainly "for effect", at that).



Quote:
Lumping all "automatics" together because hurrr durr they shift themselves . . .
What I will give you is that a DSG does have the potential for being a better automatic than any of the other types of automatic. At least when driven hard; it's in part throttle driving where a DSG's warts start to show up.


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Old 11-26-2020, 11:11 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Straight6 View Post
I never understood why people romanticize the DSG/DCT so much. It is nothing more than a quicker shifting automatic; besides the newest ZF units made them obsolete. This new 7 DSG is anemic in the D mode, it downright lags the engine. It is still clunky in D and S, and auto up shifts is the manual mode, lol. Not too mention the really expensive maintenance.
I don't know man, I've got a 19 gti rabbit and this auto dsg is the best transmission I've driven. In fact it's going to spoil me on my next car choice, won't go back to manual. The cvt's I've driven felt like a dog turd compared to this transmission
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Old 11-26-2020, 12:09 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by golfer883 View Post
I don't know man, I've got a 19 gti rabbit and this auto dsg is the best transmission I've driven. In fact it's going to spoil me on my next car choice, won't go back to manual. The cvt's I've driven felt like a dog turd compared to this transmission
You're comparing a good solid BM to diarrhea. A CVT has a chain that moves on tapered pulleys for differing gear ratios.
A DSG is basically "two" manual gearsets (odd/even) with a common output shaft and coupled to the engine by two hydraulic clutches.

The only thing they have in common is both use a torque converter to uncouple the transmission from the engine when in gear but not moving.
Subaru:

VW:

Last edited by Elbert Bass; 11-26-2020 at 12:13 PM. Reason: Add images
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Old 11-27-2020, 08:59 PM   #65
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You're comparing a good solid BM to diarrhea.


Best comment I've heard so far. Hilarious.
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Old 11-28-2020, 08:55 AM   #66
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The only thing they have in common is both use a torque converter to uncouple the transmission from the engine when in gear but not moving.
It's a mistake to think that what a transmission's arrangement of gears or pulleys looks like is what makes an automated transmission an automatic. Though the presence of a torque converter or fluid coupling is a pretty solid clue that it's an automatic of some sort.

Like just about everybody else here and elsewhere, you're forgetting all about the machine logic - whether electronic or hydraulic - that allows those and all other automatics to do their . . . .


wait for it . . .


automated shifting.


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Old 11-28-2020, 10:01 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Elbert Bass View Post
You're comparing a good solid BM to diarrhea. A CVT has a chain that moves on tapered pulleys for differing gear ratios.
A DSG is basically "two" manual gearsets (odd/even) with a common output shaft and coupled to the engine by two hydraulic clutches.

The only thing they have in common is both use a torque converter to uncouple the transmission from the engine when in gear but not moving.
Subaru:

VW:
From what I hear the zf transmission (one in the Supra) is pretty sweet. I would def pick that one as well but the other autos I've tried ( one in Miata, cvts in wrx) all suck monkey balls vs the auto dsg VW has.
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Old 11-30-2020, 02:08 PM   #68
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Compared to CVTs the zf 8 speed is clunky.

The 8 speed is super smooth as far as traditional autos goes but canít comoare to my 8 year old 100k mile cvt.

You donít feel any clunks or jolts in the cvt when it shifts. Especially noticeable when accelerating uphill.
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Old 12-04-2020, 07:38 AM   #69
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Compared to CVTs the zf 8 speed is clunky.

The 8 speed is super smooth as far as traditional autos goes but canít comoare to my 8 year old 100k mile cvt.

You donít feel any clunks or jolts in the cvt when it shifts. Especially noticeable when accelerating uphill.
Clunky vs your cvt in your cheap car, lol. I don't know I prefer feeling some gears in my performance cars.
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Old 12-04-2020, 09:11 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by DieselDorf View Post
Compared to CVTs the zf 8 speed is clunky.

The 8 speed is super smooth as far as traditional autos goes but can't comoare to my 8 year old 100k mile cvt.

You don't feel any clunks or jolts in the cvt when it shifts. Especially noticeable when accelerating uphill.
Of course you don't feel "shifts" with a CVT. They just sort of gradually morph from one ratio through a near-infinite range of others with maybe a pause here and there on the way up. Nothing there to feel, though if you ever did feel a clunk with a CVT, something in it may have broken.

With a CVT you end up with road speed not bearing any resemblance to the engine revs, and that's always been a key indicator to me for both speed and when to shift. To lose that would make driving harder rather than easier. No thanks.


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Old 12-04-2020, 09:49 AM   #71
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Subaru doesnít recommend replacing fluid for 100,000 miles. You have to split the transmission to change the filter.

They are lighter, cheaper to manufacture and yield better mpg, hence the changeover.

Weíve avoided Subaru CVTís thus far but just bought a Prius v with one, as do two snowmobiles.
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Old 12-04-2020, 11:21 AM   #72
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Subaru doesn't recommend replacing fluid for 100,000 miles. You have to split the transmission to change the filter.

They are lighter, cheaper to manufacture and yield better mpg, hence the changeover.

We've avoided Subaru CVT's thus far but just bought a Prius v with one, as do two snowmobiles.
I'm pretty sure that snowmobiles have always used CVTs.

CVTs also get used in F440/F500 formula cars as a spec-class rule requirement. You either like it that way, live with it, or find another class to race in.


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Old 12-12-2020, 03:40 PM   #73
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I disagree completely. CVT's are the transmission of the devil. They are horribly inefficient, wear out too quickly, and their ability to handle decent amounts of torque is laughable. Take the Nissan Murano CVT, when challenged with a steep hill it just can't transmit enough torque to (a) spin the wheels or (b) accelerate up the hill. Then there is Toyota's new CVT with a "Launch Gear", which to me is just an admission that a straight CVT isn't reliable and strong enough to handle 1st gear launches.

Much better is the automated dual clutch transmission. More efficient, lasts longer, can handle all the torque you can throw at it, and is better than typical automatic or manual transmissions in every way. Faster shifts, better efficiency, lower component wear.

Our 2020 CVT Ascent is hauling a lot of weight pulling our trailer and boat. We've done a lot of pulling up hills too. My 2018 CVT Legacy 3.6R shifts better than my older auto Forester. The torque feels great and the paddle shifts feel also pretty good too. Highway cruising is great on the legacy. Are CVT's good for racing? Of course not, but it has its value and subarus CVT are pretty efficient. I actually think the subaru CVT's are underrated.
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Old 12-12-2020, 06:34 PM   #74
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I wonder if OP was really wondering about CVTs being underappreciated . . .


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Old 12-12-2020, 06:51 PM   #75
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My recollection concerning the CVT in the Legacy was that the Legacy was one of the later Subaru models to end up with the CVT. I'm assuming that Subaru felt some need to develop it a bit further for the larger engine.


Even though the WRX is big enough for nearly all of our needs (and is a hoot to drive with much better throttle response than the LGT we had before it), I'm still kind of annoyed at Subaru for dropping the 6MT from the Legacy lineup.


Norm
Having the 6MT on the current legacy really makes no sense in 2020. The latest lines of legacies even the 2018 on up are in form more of a lower end luxury and having a 6MT would make no sales. Is my 3.6 R like my 05Gt? No. But it's a lot easier to drive and cruises better on the highway. Plus all the amenities makes it so easy to like. But that's me. If I'm in the mood for boost, I just take out my WRX on the weekend.

And those 2010 Legacy GT's with manual tranny's were terrible. Very numb feeling vehicles...which is why I traded my 05 Gt LTD for a 11 WRX ltd.

I really like the CVT's in the legacy and Ascent. Subaru did a great job and I don't understand the hate.
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